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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
When Jesus died Jesus went to the biblical hell [sheol].
- Acts 2vs27,31;Psalm 16v10
What was Jesus doing while in the Bible's hell ?
Jesus taught the dead sleep. [John 11vs11-14]
That would mean Jesus believed he would be in a sleep-like state until God resurrected Jesus out of the biblical hell.
Hell [gravedom] did not exist before Adam disobeyed God.
Because of Jesus' faithful death, Jesus will reverse death and hell.
Jesus will resurrect everyone that is in the Bible's hell [common grave of mankind] according to Revelation 1v18; 20vs13,14.
waitasec
Veteran Member
so how is that a sacrifice then?
he knew what would happen...he'd just be sleeping for a few days
no biggy...for a god that is.
The difference is that Adam ate second.
Obedience was placed last in Adam's hands.
Adam was the one left with the final choice.
KEY: Obedience. Adam could only be disobedient on purpose.
Yes, their conscience made them aware that something was wrong to the point they covered with fig leaves.
Satan was cautious in tricking or deceiving Eve.
He used a line of reasoning to see what she believed first before calling God a liar.
The fatal bruise to the 'head' [Gen 3v15] would be life taking.
Romans [16v20] says Satan would be bruised or crushed under Jesus feet.
in other words, Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
First, that old serpent Satan [Rev 20vs1-3] will be abyssed for a 1000 years.
Then, that liar Satan will end up destroyed in 'second death'.- Rev 21v8
Flesh and gene change was gradual because Adam lived 930 years.
Once disobedient it was as if Adam unplugged himself for his source of everlasting life. Like an unplugged fan would slowly wind down and stop.
Adam slowly wound down til he stopped in death.
The Bible is not a science text book, and where the Bible is silent there is not a scientific explanation. That does not change the fact that no one after Adam can stop themselves from sinning. No one can stop death. No one can resurrect oneself or another. Since we are not responsible for what Adam did God has made a provision through Jesus to undo all the wrong Adam brought upon us including bringing to nothing our last enemy death. 1st Cor 15v26,
waitasec
Veteran Member
before or after their eyes were open
but god lied...
and she wouldn't have known what that meant if she did eat the fruit now would she
i'm sorry i missed that part in gen...
what's the purpose of it being gradual...to fit your theology
you are mistaken
In Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses tries to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the people. To be written out of God's book, means to be written out of the Book of Life, which means Moses was asking to die for the sins of the People. God's response was "No, it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:"
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Eternal plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. [Exodus 32:30-35]
The whole of chapter 18 of the book of Ezekiel is about this idea, that no one can die for someone else's sin. Further, this chapter of Ezekiel teaches us that all we have to do for God's forgiveness is to stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God will forgive us. Nowhere in this chapter does it say that we have to have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. (But more on this later.)
The word of the Eternal came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Eternal God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
What Jews Believe
God existing doesn't mean that he must send people to hell. He can if he wants to but he doesn't have to (depending on the definition of hell)
If God doesn't exist then he can't send people to hell
Ghost of a Rider
Member
I still don't see how this makes any difference since they both knew not to eat of the tree. But let's say for the sake of argument that you have a point; what would have happened had Adam not eaten the fruit?
As the text is laid out, the only thing they saw was wrong was that they were naked. It doesn't say or indicate in any way that they felt alienated from God or that they were trying to hide their sin. It only says they were trying to hide their nakedness.
This doesn't answer the question. So again (for the hundred and first time) what makes the wild animal serpent's (not Satan's) "cautiousness" significant enough to be mentioned if it had nothing to do with what transpired?
You said this already. What about my comment about the serpent crushing the heel of the seed of Eve?
Is this your scientific explanation? If so, can you elaborate and explain what exactly happened at the cellular and genetic level?
Even if the Bible is not a science text book, if what you say is true, there IS a scientific explanation. Has no Christian scientist or biologist ever wondered and researched this?
If we are not responsible for what Adam did then why are we being held responsible? Why is the burden of accepting the salvation of Jesus on faith being placed on me if I'm not responsible? And why am I being threatened with the punishment of eternal damnation for non-acceptance if I'm not responsible?
We did not ask Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. We did not ask to be born into this world and we most certainly did not ask to be born with a sinful nature. Yet we are cursed with death and threatened with eternal torment. Sounds very much like we are responsible.
Let me ask you this: Since Adam and Eve were never born again or washed in the blood of Jesus or otherwise formally saved or forgiven, are they in hell?
DandyAndy
Active Member
I'm back! I don't think anyone noticed I was gone but stuff got crazy for a few months. Still kinda are but anyway, I've been out of the loop so I'll just respond as best as I can.
I would agree that as a skeptic outsider it is tough. That's where personal experience kicks in.
Keep trying is all I can advise and if you are sincere it will happen.
Were you Catholic? I'm just curious...nearly every believer turned unbeliever I know has been Catholic, not all, but most. I'm just wondering if it's a true trend or a coincidence.
History, plausibility and above all else, personal experience.
lol. No comment.
It's not what the Bible says and there was prophesy and expectations for someone to be a sacrifice and not merely an example to follow - but he was an example to follow. He just also accomplished the whole victory over sin and death which is essential for humanity to be saved if the state of affairs presented in the Bible are actually true.
That cool ^-^
I had no idea there was a difference. Agnostic atheist makes me giggle because if you believe there is no gods, it would logically follow that knowing their knowledge would be impossible (since they aren't there). Thanks for the clarification though. All these labels people throw around get me confused most of the time.
A roulette wheel involves 0 intelligence. It's all about guesswork. If this were all guesswork, we wouldn't have scholars and ancient history and deep thought out discussions and the like.
I would agree that as a skeptic outsider it is tough. That's where personal experience kicks in.
Keep trying is all I can advise and if you are sincere it will happen.
Were you Catholic? I'm just curious...nearly every believer turned unbeliever I know has been Catholic, not all, but most. I'm just wondering if it's a true trend or a coincidence.
History, plausibility and above all else, personal experience.
sadists and masochists would disagree with you there
lol. No comment.
It's not what the Bible says and there was prophesy and expectations for someone to be a sacrifice and not merely an example to follow - but he was an example to follow. He just also accomplished the whole victory over sin and death which is essential for humanity to be saved if the state of affairs presented in the Bible are actually true.
That cool ^-^
I had no idea there was a difference. Agnostic atheist makes me giggle because if you believe there is no gods, it would logically follow that knowing their knowledge would be impossible (since they aren't there). Thanks for the clarification though. All these labels people throw around get me confused most of the time.
A roulette wheel involves 0 intelligence. It's all about guesswork. If this were all guesswork, we wouldn't have scholars and ancient history and deep thought out discussions and the like.
DandyAndy
Active Member
Ghost, yours is too long for me to go point by point. I got kind of burnt out doing that with 3 or 4 people.
I think we were at an impasse anyways, or so it seemed. Plus I can only go so far in most of these discussions - we're getting into really specific stuff and I'm just not smart enough yet or spiritually mature enough yet to have the kind of information and understanding required of me. You're talking about ancient Jewish beliefs of Satan and other things that I really don't have any business commenting on.
I do like the issues you raise about salvation and unconditional love as well as the whole Satan in the presence of God in Job thing. I guess I just don't see any inconstancies there.
We will all stand guilty before the judgement seat of God, so obviously God will be in the presence of sinful people and sin. I guess when Christians say that God cannot be in the presence of evil, maybe it has something more to do with relationship and intimacy rather than simply proximity. I'd never thought of it that way but it would give even more meaning to the fact that we can find reconciliation through Christ - not only will we be in God's presence but we will actually be in relationship with Him. There's a BIG difference between being in the same room with someone and having a relationship with them.
And just because Adam and Eve were eternal doesn't mean that all the plant and animal life around them was eternal. It is assuming too much to say that they did not understand life and death - they could have understood it very clearly by observing it in the world around them. I don't know if they did or not.
I think we were at an impasse anyways, or so it seemed. Plus I can only go so far in most of these discussions - we're getting into really specific stuff and I'm just not smart enough yet or spiritually mature enough yet to have the kind of information and understanding required of me. You're talking about ancient Jewish beliefs of Satan and other things that I really don't have any business commenting on.
I do like the issues you raise about salvation and unconditional love as well as the whole Satan in the presence of God in Job thing. I guess I just don't see any inconstancies there.
We will all stand guilty before the judgement seat of God, so obviously God will be in the presence of sinful people and sin. I guess when Christians say that God cannot be in the presence of evil, maybe it has something more to do with relationship and intimacy rather than simply proximity. I'd never thought of it that way but it would give even more meaning to the fact that we can find reconciliation through Christ - not only will we be in God's presence but we will actually be in relationship with Him. There's a BIG difference between being in the same room with someone and having a relationship with them.
And just because Adam and Eve were eternal doesn't mean that all the plant and animal life around them was eternal. It is assuming too much to say that they did not understand life and death - they could have understood it very clearly by observing it in the world around them. I don't know if they did or not.
DandyAndy
Active Member
pt 2
i can only make my point meaningful if the passage i use is in the original context...otherwise it's self defeating so what would be the point.
who's talking about being perfect
in matthew 25:31-46...perfection isn't required, compassion is.
i'll eat my dirty sandal if you can find a passage from jesus saying that.
really i will! and i'll post it on youtube just for you...
this idea does not originate in the gospels it's an idea that came about because jesus hadn't returned as of yet and the only way to reconcile that dilemma is by having faith.
But Jesus talked a lot about faith too. The quote I was thinking was from Hebrews. You don't have to eat you sandal.
He was talking to the righteous, uppity religious types and I always thought he was making the point that he prefers mercy to those in need of it rather than sacrifices like those offered in the OT and in that line of tradition. BUt self sacrifice is required, sure, it's a part of everyday life. Dying to self and putting others ahead of yourself and whatnot.
Did you ever think that if Christ were here today, the 'religious right' you speak off would only take the place of the Pharisees and sageises (sp?) and groups that Christ so often chastised?
I'm not saying Jesus would be pro gay-marriage or anything (I think that's what you are referring to), but I think he'd have a million better things to worry about, no offense. People have always been about control, especially control over others.
Take what the 'religious right' says and does, juxtapose it with what you know about the Bible, and if they don't line up with Christ, well, they probably aren't Christ followers - you know, judge them by their fruit and whatnot, right?
I don't know where I was going or what that was about. I'm sure it was the unbelievers though. Who knows.
Well how very nice of you to think of me as awesome - whether it be sincere or sarcastic, a compliment is a compliment and I will take it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i'm pretty sure i wasn't being sarcastic if i were i would have given you a smilie that would leave no doubt about it...like:sarcastic or
now that was a blast from the past.
Right: the soul that sins dies. We all die for our own sins not another's sins.
[Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23]
Eat=Die. Yes, A&E both knew: Eat=Die.
They were told they would die within the day. Not a 24-hour day time frame but within a millennial day or time frame. In other words, no one could live longer than 1000 years after sinning. Even the oldest on Bible record died before age 1000.
What does Colossians [1v20] say about through Jesus blood?
What did John believe about Jesus blood at 1st John 1v7 ?
What did Jesus give as a ransom according to Matthew 20v28 ?
The sacrifice was remaining and dying faithful.
Under adverse conditions both Job and Jesus proved Satan the liar.
-Job 2vs4,5
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But that's not hard if you know you're going to come back to life.
Good thinking question and 'no', A&E are not in hell [sheol]
They were not created with human imperfection.
Their sin could only be deliberate.
No resurrection was offered to them.
In Bible speak that would put them in 'Gehenna'.
[Gehenna is a symbol of destruction/ second death]
Adam and Eve were never meant to be 'born again' because they were created to live physically forever on Earth.
Heaven was never their destination.
So, in other words, if Adam had not eaten the fruit he would be alive on earth today in a perfectly sound healthy human body.
We are Not held responsible.
If we were there would be No hope of a resurrection for us.
[If we could stop sinning we would not die. Because we can't, we die]
Because we are Not held responsible, through Jesus, he now has the keys to unlock death and hell [sheol] for us according to Revelation 1v18.
As far as scientific explanation: We know everything wears down.
So, apparently it was God's protection and blessing is what maintained Adam and Eve's human perfection as long as obedient. [Psalm 102vs25-28]
Aren't we 'threatened' with everlasting life ?
'Obey and live forever' does not sound very threatening to me.
Like Adam and Satan the worst that can happen is: destruction.
[punished with everlasting destruction.- 2nd Thess. 1v9]
Jesus will 'destroy' Satan -[Hebrews 2v14 B; Rev 21v8] Not torture.
Just those that commit the 'unforgivable sin' [Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6]
will have no resurrection back to life anywhere either heaven or on earth.
-Psalm 92v7; 2nd Peter 3v9.
Eve gives as an explanation [Gen 3v13] not their nakedness,
but that she was beguiled or deceived. [2nd Cor 11v3]
Satan [behind the scenes as the serpent] was held responsible in verse 14.
'Eve's seed' ? Sorry I was not clear.
Apparently you're connecting Gen 3v15 with Eve being the woman?
God in talking to Satan in verse 15 is talking about his [Satan's] seed bruising the woman's seed [aka Jesus], but that woman is not Eve.
Some think that woman is Mary, but we are not talking about a literal woman.
Galatians [4v26] says the mother [of the seed] is: Jerusalem above.
Not earthly Jerusalem, but now heavenly Jerusalem meaning Jesus rule would come from the heavens. [Rev 21v2]
John further describes the 'woman' in Revelation chapter 12.
This vivid description John wrote long after Jesus died,
so we are not talking about the birth of Jesus,
but Jesus now being king of God's kingdom.
So, that 'birth', so to speak, is of God's messianic kingdom being pictured.
'Earthly Jerusalem' was the earthly seat of government.
Now 'heavenly Jerusalem' would be the seat of government. [Isaiah 9v7]
Satan is seen as persecuting the 'woman' [Eve's been long gone]
and his making war with the 'remaining ones' of the woman's 'seed'.
That symbolic woman is heavenly.
Satan is now in the vicinity of the earth. Satan can not reach heavenly ones, So Satan goes after Jesus 'brothers' [spiritual brothers -Matt 25v40] on earth.
We are now nearing the time on earth of the separating of those of Matthew [25vs31,32] and the living righteous ones can gain everlasting life right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
But that's not hard if you know you're going to come back to life.
Could you go through all of the suffering Jesus [and Job] went though and not consider that hard?
However, knowing 'death' is the wage or price that sin pays [Rom 6v23;6v7] and that 'death' stamps the asking price of sin as Paid In Full, and that you will come back to life is more than encouraging.
waitasec
Veteran Member
well in regards to deuteronomy 24:16 every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
you are contradicting god's word
because adam sinned we all die..
i'm so confused
they didn't die though...god lied.
where does it say that?
pure fantasy...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/123500-im-luckiest-girl-world.html
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
There's nothing adverse in dieing and rising again, and knowing you would be.
But, isn't there adversity in suffering?
How would you handle what Job endured ?
Isaiah chapter 53 foretold some of the suffering Jesus would go through,
and at Isaiah [50v6] mentions Jesus persecutors even plucking off his beard.
-Matthew chapter 27
Don't you sin? All sinners die for their own sins.
So, how does that contradict that the soul that sins dies? [Eze 18vs4,20]
Where is Adam? Adam is not alive. Adam and Eve died.
They died within that 'thousand-year day' time frame.
[Gen 2v17;Psalm 90v4; 2nd Peter 3v8]
Whether one calls Scripture fantasy or not, according to Scripture,
Adam and Eve would die in that first millennial-long day.
Some people think the six creative days are each 24-hours long even though Genesis [2v4] sums up all of the creative days as a 'day'.
Just as we might call the daylight hours as day or daytime even though day light is not 24-hours long, Genesis [1v5] also calls the daylight hours as 'day'.
The 7th 'day' of Genesis was still on going in Paul's day [Hebrews 4vs4-9].
So, as in English, in Scripture, the word 'day' also had shades of meaning