Why would I Loving God create Life?

[Nakosis]

I don't see God as vengeful in the OT. I see Him as very Just. In the OT God's holiness was displayed which included His judgment of evil. Yet, throughout the history of Israel and the surrounding nations God demonstrated extreme patience and gave warnings over and over again and ample time for people to turn from their wickedness before judgement came upon them. The scriptures, I believe must be read and taken as a whole. God's character includes love, forgiveness, and compassion, but it also includes holiness, righteousness and justice. which means sin and evil will be judged.

Weren't many Judeans expecting the Messiah to lead them to victory over foreign rulers? They seemed to be looking for someone more like David. To lead them in battle. This was the expectation of the Messiah. Not someone who told them to give to Caesar what was Caesar's. Were these Judeans wrong about their own scripture?

7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

 

[Nakosis]

No, God did not make evil He reveals, exposes, and defines evil which occurs when any creature is in opposition to His goodness.

In Exodus 32 God intended to do evil against the people brought out of Egypt. Because of the golden calf. Except that Moses talked God out of it.

Good thing Moses was able to calm God down and remind God of his purpose for the Hebrew.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't see God as vengeful in the OT. I see Him as very Just.

Were the genocide orders just? Was he just when he said that bad children had to be stoned to death if they don´t want to listen to their parents or the old ones of Israel? Was he being just when he said that if a woman wantd to protect his husband and for that purpose touched the genitals of his adversary to knock him out her hand must be cutted? (This that happened oftenly then? ) Were the terms in which he described how can it be fair to sell your daugther as a slave just?

Are you sure this things are just?

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Were the genocide orders just?

Ask any Rabbi, or read the scriptures for yourselves, they only killed those who would not surrender, on top of that it wasn't races they were fighting it was cultures (cultures who practised child sacrifices, I think that seems just to me)

Was he just when he said that bad children had to be stoned to death if they don´t want to listen to their parents or the old ones of Israel?

I'd read the Oral law on that one, I'd also examine the context, it was a long time again when not having a child to inherit your livihood was viewed as a curse, family values were the utmost of importance.

Was he being just when he said that if a woman wantd to protect his husband and for that purpose touched the genitals of his adversary to knock him out her hand must be cutted? (This that happened oftenly then? )

Seeing the context implies it is a fight, not a burglar breaking in, it is only fair that there should be rules for this fight, and if you cheat in a fight there should be a harsh punishment, however it is easy enough to avoid, however again I'd ask we look at the Oral Law

Were the terms in which he described how can it be fair to sell your daugther as a slave just?

Oral law.

Are you sure this things are just?

You know better then God?

 

[terryboy]

Yes we know better than that fake God. We know genocide is in no way justifiable, stoning and amputation are cruel and selling daughters as slaves is plain WRONG.

 

[Nakosis]

Seeing the context implies it is a fight, not a burglar breaking in, it is only fair that there should be rules for this fight, and if you cheat in a fight there should be a harsh punishment, however it is easy enough to avoid, however again I'd ask we look at the Oral Law

Oral law.

You know better then God?

Many of the Judean sects rejected the Oral Laws. However it does show the Pharisee themselves had issues with the OT and tried to interpret it in a more sensible compassionate way. So both Christians and Jews found it necessary to modify belief from a literal understanding of the OT. The OT is fairly barbaric, if taken literally.

The point is you have to find a way to justify the morality of the OT. Not that you can find a way to excuse/justify it.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Many of the Judean sects rejected the Oral Laws. However it does show the Pharisee themselves had issues with the OT and tried to interpret it in a more sensible compassionate way. So both Christians and Jews found it necessary to modify belief from a literal understanding of the OT. The OT is fairly barbaric, if taken literally.

The point is you have to find a way to justify the morality of the OT. Not that you can find a way to excuse/justify it.

Compare the Old Testament culture to surrounding cultures of the time and then say it's barbaric

As a Christian I don't hold the Oral law as authoritative, but likely parts of it date back to the same time as the written law,

Which sects reject the oral law? I've only heard of one small sect,

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Yes we know better than that fake God. We know genocide is in no way justifiable, stoning and amputation are cruel and selling daughters as slaves is plain WRONG.

What Genocide? maybe you should read the Bible, the Israelites only killed those who won't surrender, I honestly don't know how else they would occupy a land

Stoning is no different from capital punishment, which has been tolerated for most of known history and is still debate able to day, however Christ made it clear it was just a temporary thing much like the Mosaic laws concerning divorce, given due to our hard hearts.

Amputation was a common punishment, it's not like the Israelite invented it

Again unless you consult the Oral Law what right do you have to critic it?

 

[InChrist]

Weren't many Judeans expecting the Messiah to lead them to victory over foreign rulers? They seemed to be looking for someone more like David. To lead them in battle. This was the expectation of the Messiah. Not someone who told them to give to Caesar what was Caesar's. Were these Judeans wrong about their own scripture?


7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

They did not consider all their scriptures and prophecies as a whole. Yes, they were looking for a Messiah to lead them in victory because they were focused on the prophecies related to Christ's second coming as King of Kings and not paying attention to the prophecies about His first coming as the Lamb of God to save His people from their sins.

 

[InChrist]

In Exodus 32 God intended to do evil against the people brought out of Egypt. Because of the golden calf. Except that Moses talked God out of it.

Good thing Moses was able to calm God down and remind God of his purpose for the Hebrew.

The Exodus passage says God intended to express His wrath toward the people, not evil. God had every right to be angry and bring His righteous judgment upon them when they made a golden calf and worshiped it after He had just miraculously saved then from the Egyptian army. The fact that Moses was able to ask God for mercy and God responded shows His extreme patience with ungrateful people.

 

[InChrist]

Were the genocide orders just? Was he just when he said that bad children had to be stoned to death if they don´t want to listen to their parents or the old ones of Israel? Was he being just when he said that if a woman wantd to protect his husband and for that purpose touched the genitals of his adversary to knock him out her hand must be cutted? (This that happened oftenly then? ) Were the terms in which he described how can it be fair to sell your daugther as a slave just?

Are you sure this things are just?

I can hardly understand what you are talking about or what you are referring to, maybe you could make yourself more clear or give some scripture references.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Can we not discuss the character of God some where else I hardly see the relevance

 

[terryboy]

What Genocide? maybe you should read the Bible, the Israelites only killed those who won't surrender, I honestly don't know how else they would occupy a land

A passage from Deuteronomy 7
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.

Another passage from Jeremiah 50
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says:

“I will punish the king of Babylon and his land
as I punished the king of Assyria.
19 But I will bring Israel back to their own pasture,
and they will graze on Carmel and Bashan;
their appetite will be satisfied
on the hills of Ephraim and Gilead.
20 In those days, at that time,”
declares the LORD,
“search will be made for Israel’s guilt,
but there will be none,
and for the sins of Judah,
but none will be found,
for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

21 “Attack the land of Merathaim
and those who live in Pekod.
Pursue, kill and completely destroy[c] them,”
declares the LORD.
“Do everything I have commanded you.
22 The noise of battle is in the land,
the noise of great destruction!
23 How broken and shattered
is the hammer of the whole earth!
How desolate is Babylon
among the nations!
24 I set a trap for you, Babylon,
and you were caught before you knew it;
you were found and captured
because you opposed the LORD.
25 The LORD has opened his arsenal
and brought out the weapons of his wrath,
for the Sovereign LORD Almighty has work to do
in the land of the Babylonians.
26 Come against her from afar.
Break open her granaries;
pile her up like heaps of grain.
Completely destroy her
and leave her no remnant.
27 Kill all her young bulls;
let them go down to the slaughter!
Woe to them! For their day has come,
the time for them to be punished.
28 Listen to the fugitives and refugees from Babylon
declaring in Zion
how the LORD our God has taken vengeance,
vengeance for his temple.

When I read the OT, I was horrified, what happened to the merciful god? Don't tell me to read the Bible again, please.

Stoning is no different from capital punishment, which has been tolerated for most of known history and is still debate able to day, however Christ made it clear it was just a temporary thing much like the Mosaic laws concerning divorce, given due to our hard hearts.

Amputation was a common punishment, it's not like the Israelite invented it

Stoning for adultery, fortune-telling, not being a virgin etc cannot be justified.

I live in Nigeria, it's very common to see beggars with amputated arms. I must tell you that the sight is heartbreaking. If the Israelites didn't invent it, they should not have practiced it.

Again unless you consult the Oral Law what right do you have to critic it?

You're right, if my neighbor sells his daughter into slavery, I have no right to critic.

 

[cablescavenger]

If God is love (1 John 4:8) why was I born?
I mean if I listen to half the religious centres within a few miles, I'm damned because I don't believe in their prophets, or I wasn't baptisted right, or one bit of more doctirnes are out of line, or for the Calvinists I never had a choice to begin with

Why was I even born then? I don't believe in eternal hell fire as it's unbiblical but I'd rather stay out of Gehenna. For all I know any one of these groups could be right, I might as well be damned. In that case, why did God make me? So I could struggle to find him my whole life and then end up damned? So I could fail myself and Him as much as possibly between now and my death bed? How can a loving God do that?

I still dispute that the Christian God is loving. There is an old phrase which goes actions speak louder than words. We see no actions from your God, and if we were to conclude the bible had an ounce of truth in it, then the actions of God are anything but good, and whoever says he is good has managed to overlook the blatantly obvious.

Back to the question though, my answer would be 'Why indeed?'

To compound this quandary, why would any God create life? Surely it would be more effort than it was worth? and why once life was created would a loving God let 99% of all life that ever existed go extinct?

 

[ForeverFaithful]

A passage from Deuteronomy 7
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.

Another passage from Jeremiah 50
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says:

“I will punish the king of Babylon and his land
as I punished the king of Assyria.
19 But I will bring Israel back to their own pasture,
and they will graze on Carmel and Bashan;
their appetite will be satisfied
on the hills of Ephraim and Gilead.
20 In those days, at that time,”
declares the LORD,
“search will be made for Israel’s guilt,
but there will be none,
and for the sins of Judah,
but none will be found,
for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

21 “Attack the land of Merathaim
and those who live in Pekod.
Pursue, kill and completely destroy[c] them,”
declares the LORD.
“Do everything I have commanded you.
22 The noise of battle is in the land,
the noise of great destruction!
23 How broken and shattered
is the hammer of the whole earth!
How desolate is Babylon
among the nations!
24 I set a trap for you, Babylon,
and you were caught before you knew it;
you were found and captured
because you opposed the LORD.
25 The LORD has opened his arsenal
and brought out the weapons of his wrath,
for the Sovereign LORD Almighty has work to do
in the land of the Babylonians.
26 Come against her from afar.
Break open her granaries;
pile her up like heaps of grain.
Completely destroy her
and leave her no remnant.
27 Kill all her young bulls;
let them go down to the slaughter!
Woe to them! For their day has come,
the time for them to be punished.
28 Listen to the fugitives and refugees from Babylon
declaring in Zion
how the LORD our God has taken vengeance,
vengeance for his temple.

When I read the OT, I was horrified, what happened to the merciful god? Don't tell me to read the Bible again, please.

Is that different then how the Allied Troops treated the Nazis? You have to wipe out an enemy to occupy a land, it's simple

Stoning for adultery, fortune-telling, not being a virgin etc cannot be justified.

Because our culture doesn't concern them big deals that makes us right and everyone else wrong eh? Israel was intended to be a theocracy, again stoning was never an ideal, but it was the means of keeping Israel a Holy Nation

I live in Nigeria, it's very common to see beggars with amputated arms. I must tell you that the sight is heartbreaking. If the Israelites didn't invent it, they should not have practiced it.

Niether should any of the surrounding nations, if you want cruelty look at some of the other near east traditions

You're right, if my neighbor sells his daughter into slavery, I have no right to critic.

I asked you to read the Oral law so you could understand the Jewish point of view on this subject and what the Rabbis have interpreted the passage to mean, seeing as Orthodox Jews don't seem to practised it makes me believe your reading it wrong

You're wasting Both of our time here, you're out right slandering the God of Abraham, unless you can provide a materialistic source of morals then I'm going to have to call you out on this, you can't judge without moral absolutes, This thread was not made to discuss the violence of the Old Testament and should not be hijacked to do such a thing,

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why was I even born then? ...In that case, why did God make me? So I could struggle to find him my whole life and then end up damned? So I could fail myself and Him as much as possibly between now and my death bed? How can a loving God do that?

Yes, that sums it up. Good luck!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes, that sums it up. Good luck!

Hooray! Let's go spread the "good news."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Hooray! Let's go spread the "good news."

The word for the day is "legs."

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The word for the day is "legs."

It is true that, often, whenever either is spread, somebody ends up getting ******.

 

[Nakosis]

Compare the Old Testament culture to surrounding cultures of the time and then say it's barbaric

As a Christian I don't hold the Oral law as authoritative, but likely parts of it date back to the same time as the written law,

Which sects reject the oral law? I've only heard of one small sect,

They were from my understanding developed by the Pharisees. It was one of the big issues between them and the literalistic Sadducee. I didn't think anyone else held them in any regard other then the Pharisee.

Yes the whole area/time was barbaric. Likely nothing coming out of that time has suitable morals for today. However you see... There's a difference. You can accept God had his reason. I'm just saying there is a difference with what Jesus taught.