Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

[Trailblazer]

Do you really care what the answer a "born-again" Christian is going to give? It doesn't sound like it.

I care about everyone's beliefs and opinions even if I do not agree with them.

But Baha'is know best what the Bible really says and means?

No, not at all, but we can read... Can you?
as the Bible clearly says:
(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Proven? By Bill Sears? In his book?
"Incontrovertible proof"?

It is for me.... YMMV.

So Christians believe things that can't be backed up by their Scriptures?

Absolutely.

When we all know it is the Baha'i Faith that in this day and age is the end all.

But it is not the end all like Christianity, which teaches that it is the only true religion for all if time.

Baha'is then cherry pick the Bible and the NT to "prove" that those Christians are wrong.

We do not have to pick very may cherries to prove that but it would fill a bushel.

And, in the end, who is right? The Baha'is of course. Unless, you're a Christian. Then naturally it was you that won the battle.

Where's the unity in that? Where's the peace in that? Sorry, I don't see the Baha'is bringing peace and unity between the different religions. It's still a back and forth argument about who is right and who is wrong.

Unity does not have to mean agreement. There can be beauty and harmony in diversity.

BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

Agreeing with what we do not believe is dishonest. Sorry, no thanks.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you really care what the answer a "born-again" Christian is going to give? It doesn't sound like it.
It is the NT that says Jesus rose from the dead.

But Baha'is know best what the Bible really says and means?

Proven? By Bill Sears? In his book?


"Incontrovertible proof"?

So Christians believe things that can't be backed up by their Scriptures?

When we all know it is the Baha'i Faith that in this day and age is the end all.


Baha'is and born-again Christians are talking about two completely separate spiritual/religious realities. Christians cherry picked the Jewish Bible to "prove" that Jesus is who they say he is. Then they wrote things into their NT to have Jesus coming back to life and ascending into heaven. It is what those Christians believe. And it is the religion they built. Baha'is cannot have that Christianity stand as being the truth. Baha'is then cherry pick the Bible and the NT to "prove" that those Christians are wrong. And, in the end, who is right? The Baha'is of course. Unless, you're a Christian. Then naturally it was you that won the battle.

Where's the unity in that? Where's the peace in that? Sorry, I don't see the Baha'is bringing peace and unity between the different religions. It's still a back and forth argument about who is right and who is wrong.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead? For a born-again Christian everything. He is alive. He has risen. And... is coming back. For a Baha'i... nothing. Baha'is believe his body is dead and gone. Baha'is tell me that the whole story about the resurrection of Jesus is only symbolic... and that no way is he coming back. Great, Baha'is don't need that born-again Christian Jesus anyway. They have a Jesus of their own to believe in. That dead one.

It is the interpretation that Jesus rose from the dead physically which leads Christians to claim He is superior to other Prophets and that other Prophets are false causing hatred towards other religions. This interpretation leads to division. But a different interpretation can unite religions.

How can there possibly be unity between Christians and Muslims or any religion when Christians condemn Muhammad or any Founder as a false Prophet because They did not rise from the dead and Jesus did? The Quran and Muslims accept Jesus.

There are so many commentaries online and in books written that you can find Muhammad and other Prophets labelled as ‘Satans’. Is this conducive to peace such a destructive interpretation?

Scour online. You will never find one Bahá’í website condemning any of the Founders, Prophets and Avatars. What you will find is They are all praised and even Their Holy Writings are read in our Temples.

What the Baha’is are seeking to do is explain the Gospels in a way which harmonises all the Faiths and builds bridges between them. Making Christ equal to all the other Prophets gives unity a chance but going around saying all are false prophets except Christ can only breed conflict and disunity.

Of course there are those who won’t like what the Baha’is are saying because it takes away their superiority card.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is true, we don’t know anything about what really happened 2000 years ago, we just believe, or not believe. I believe Bible is correct recording of that happened and also tells correctly what Jesus taught, even though I don’t think Bible is written by Jesus.

Do you believe that Jesus came back to life and was seen by his disciples? And that he ate with them and said to touch him and see that he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone? Isn't that what is said in the NT? Yet, Baha'is see it differently. They don't need a Holy Spirit/Comforter. They need those verses to be a prophecy about their prophet. They don't need a Jesus that physically came back to life. They need a physically dead Jesus. Which makes all the verses about him resurrecting and talking and eating with his disciples all symbolic.

I've asked them several times if they think all four gospel writers all went from reporting about the events that took place in Jesus' life to, all of a sudden, after he was crucified, to start telling an allegorical story about a resurrected Jesus? From all the answers I've gotten, it seems like that is exactly what they believe. And all their answers explain away a literal, in the flesh, resurrected Jesus. So rising from the dead for a Baha'i is not a big deal, since Jesus didn't, only in a "spiritual", "symbolic" way. Here's Abdul Baha explaining the "true" meaning of the resurrection...

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

For all the good beliefs that can be found in the Baha'i Faith, for me, there's just too many strange interpretations and explanations about things like the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[1213]

Do you believe that Jesus came back to life and was seen by his disciples? And that he ate with them and said to touch him and see that he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone?...

I believe things went as the Bible tells. But, I believe also that the body was not exactly like natural body, but spiritual body. By what the Bible tells, Jesus for example appeared in a room that was locked, where his disciples were. That is why I think Jesus rose in spiritual body that was in some ways different than natural body.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:44

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe things went as the Bible tells. But, I believe also that the body was not exactly like natural body, but spiritual body. By what the Bible tells, Jesus for example appeared in a room that was locked, where his disciples were. That is why I think Jesus rose in spiritual body that was in some ways different than natural body.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:44

Okay, it says he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost... What was he? To say he had a "spiritual" body, as in spirit, Baha'is would agree with you. But what is the difference between a body that is spirit and not physical and that body that Jesus said he had that included flesh and bone?

 

[Trailblazer]

But what is the difference between a body that is spirit and not physical and that body that Jesus said he had that included flesh and bone?

Do you really believe that Jesus actually said that?
Paul was quite clear on what kind if body it was, it was a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

What Paul said is no different from what Baha'is believe, it is spot on.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[CG Didymus]

I care about everyone's beliefs and opinions even if I do not agree with them.

But then you say things like this?

Apparently you are unable to think outside that box. What you do not understand is that what the religious believers say is just what they believe. As such, it is meaningless, since it is NOT what their scriptures say.

Which implies that certain people, in this case I'm guessing you mean some Christians, have beliefs that go against their own Scriptures? That's not caring. That is you being the arrogant one saying you, the Baha'is, have the true interpretations and meanings of things found in the Bible.

But Baha'is know best what the Bible really says and means?

To this you answered...

No, not at all, but we can read... Can you?

How very arrogant.
No, I think Baha'is do think they have the only true interpretation of the Bible. And you say "we can read"? Have you read the NT in its entirety yet? Anyone can pick a few verses and force a meaning out of them. Several times Christian and I have given you an explanation of what those verses you keep throwing out there could, and for Christians, do mean. But there is a bigger problem. Baha'is take, like you have done with those verses in John, and take them very literal. Then, with other verses, like when it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive, those you make symbolic.

It is clearly apparent that you believe that your brand of Christianity is the be-all and the end-all of everything.
Sorry to have to say this but that belief is arrogant to the max.

Why would that be arrogant for them to believe their religion is true but not for you?

If Jesus was seen, He was seen in a spiritual body that appeared to be just like a physical body. I do not know why anyone would ever doubt that Jesus could make Himself appear real, because after all He did many miracles that were more challenging than that.

It says that he showed himself to be alive. He for them to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone. So how do you explain away those?

The funny thing is I question the Bible and the NT as much as you. But I say it might be true just like Christians say, but, for me, it's unlikely. For me, I think the writers made up things about Jesus... Being born of a virgin, all the way to the resurrection. But don't mind Christians believing all those things because I believe they are following the NT very closely. Whereas you and other Baha'is keep telling them how "arrogant" they are and unable to "think" outside the box? That is not respect for the beliefs of the people in other religions. It is Baha'is telling them they are wrong and that the Baha'is are right.

Unity does not have to mean agreement. There can be beauty and harmony in diversity.

So where is the "beauty" and "harmony" between Baha's and born-again Christians?

It is the interpretation that Jesus rose from the dead physically

So the gospels say he rose from the dead. It makes it seem like he has some sort of physical body that can also appear and disappear and float off into the sky. True? Or just made up stories?

You will never find one Bahá’í website condemning any of the Founders, Prophets and Avatars. What you will find is They are all praised and even Their Holy Writings are read in our Temples.

There is a difference between saying nice things about Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and the others, then tell the people in those other religions how wrong they are... that they don't even follow their own Scriptures. But who does follow their own Scriptures perfectly? Some don't follow their Scriptures much at all... including some Baha'is.

What the Baha’is are seeking to do is explain the Gospels in a way which harmonises all the Faiths and builds bridges between them.

Harmonizing? Or telling them how they've added in traditions of men and have misinterpreted their own Scriptures?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would that be arrogant for them to believe their religion is true but not for you?

Because Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way and that Christianity is the only true religion...
Baha'is do not believe that about the Baha'i Faith. We believe that all the religions are true, at least they were before they got mucked up by their followers.

 

[Trailblazer]

It says that he showed himself to be alive. He for them to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone. So how do you explain away those?

If you believe that why don't you become a Christian and call it a day?

How do I explain that? The way most atheists and other rational people explain it. Jesus never said that. It was written by the gospel writers who never even knew Jesus, decades after Jesus walked the earth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But then you say things like this?
Which implies that certain people, in this case I'm guessing you mean some Christians, have beliefs that go against their own Scriptures? That's not caring. That is you being the arrogant one saying you, the Baha'is, have the true interpretations and meanings of things found in the Bible.
To this you answered...

How very arrogant.
No, I think Baha'is do think they have the only true interpretation of the Bible. And you say "we can read"? Have you read the NT in its entirety yet? Anyone can pick a few verses and force a meaning out of them. Several times Christian and I have given you an explanation of what those verses you keep throwing out there could, and for Christians, do mean. But there is a bigger problem. Baha'is take, like you have done with those verses in John, and take them very literal. Then, with other verses, like when it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive, those you make symbolic.
Why would that be arrogant for them to believe their religion is true but not for you?

It says that he showed himself to be alive. He for them to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone. So how do you explain away those?

The funny thing is I question the Bible and the NT as much as you. But I say it might be true just like Christians say, but, for me, it's unlikely. For me, I think the writers made up things about Jesus... Being born of a virgin, all the way to the resurrection. But don't mind Christians believing all those things because I believe they are following the NT very closely. Whereas you and other Baha'is keep telling them how "arrogant" they are and unable to "think" outside the box? That is not respect for the beliefs of the people in other religions. It is Baha'is telling them they are wrong and that the Baha'is are right.

So where is the "beauty" and "harmony" between Baha's and born-again Christians?

So the gospels say he rose from the dead. It makes it seem like he has some sort of physical body that can also appear and disappear and float off into the sky. True? Or just made up stories?

There is a difference between saying nice things about Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and the others, then tell the people in those other religions how wrong they are... that they don't even follow their own Scriptures. But who does follow their own Scriptures perfectly? Some don't follow their Scriptures much at all... including some Baha'is.

Harmonizing? Or telling them how they've added in traditions of men and have misinterpreted their own Scriptures?

We can love each other and yet have difference of opinion. We are diverse. Everyone thinks differently. To think differently doesn’t mean we are enemies.

 

[MonkeyFire]

To create the second coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can love each other and yet have difference of opinion. We are diverse. Everyone thinks differently. To think differently doesn’t mean we are enemies.

That just reminded me of what Abdu'l-Baha said about unity in diversity... I love it, it is so beautiful.

“As difference in degree of capacity exists among human souls, as difference in capability is found, therefore, individualities will differ one from another. But in reality this is a reason for unity and not for discord and enmity. If the flowers of a garden were all of one color, the effect would be monotonous to the eye; but if the colors are variegated, it is most pleasing and wonderful. The difference in adornment of color and capacity of reflection among the flowers gives the garden its beauty and charm. Therefore, although we are of different individualities, different in ideas and of various fragrances, let us strive like flowers of the same divine garden to live together in harmony. Even though each soul has its own individual perfume and color, all are reflecting the same light, all contributing fragrance to the same breeze which blows through the garden, all continuing to grow in complete harmony and accord. Become as waves of one sea, trees of one forest, growing in the utmost love, agreement and unity.”
– Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace

 

[Trailblazer]

That is you being the arrogant one saying you, the Baha'is, have the true interpretations and meanings of things found in the Bible.

It is not me being arrogant, it is just me believing in Baha'u'llah and that He was the Representative of God among men.
Please note what He wrote about interpretation of the Bible below, especially the part in bold. I do not want to be "as one dead."

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you really believe that Jesus actually said that?
Paul was quite clear on what kind if body it was, it was a spiritual body.

I do question the whole Bible. And I also question what Baha'is say about the Bible. If Jesus didn't say this, and supposedly it was the resurrected Jesus speaking, then the NT is a bunch of BS. Is that what Baha'is believe? No. That's the problem. Baha'is say they believe in the Bible and in Jesus, but they don't. They have created their own truth about what the Bible says and who Jesus was. I don't believe the Baha'i version of the Bible and Jesus.

Because Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way and that Christianity is the only true religion...
Baha'is do not believe that about the Baha'i Faith. We believe that all the religions are true, at least they were before they got mucked up by their followers.

But Baha'is don't believe in the Scriptures of those other religions either. Although, they act as if they do. What I'm seeing is that Baha'is believe the "mucking" included what was written in the Bible. So Baha'i have to explain away the problem areas by saying they were "allegorical". Which part of the Bible was true then? The whole thing is filled with stories that are impossible for some people to believe really happened.

I think Judaism and Christianity never gave any indication that other religions were true. God has the Israelites kill people because they worship false Gods. And NT makes it very clear, if you want to be "saved" you need Jesus. There is no other way indicated.

If you believe that why don't you become a Christian and call it a day?

How do I explain that? The way most atheists and other rational people explain it. Jesus never said that. It was written by the gospel writers who never even knew Jesus, decades after Jesus walked the earth.

I don't say I believe it. How many times do I have to tell you? I doubt them and the Bible even more than I doubt the Baha'i Faith. And the biggest problem I have with the Baha'i Faith is that they say they believe in all the other religions. When, in reality, they don't believe in any of them. As you said... the gospels were written by people way later and my never even have known Jesus.

So where did these stories come from? If not true, as there is always a chance, but if not true then what? It is embellished stories about a make believe God/man that came back to life. Did those writers get some things right? Apparently, because you and other Baha'is do use quotes from the Bible and the NT as if those words are literally true... like your "it is finished" quotes. Yet, when Baha'is can't use the "words" of Jesus literally then they are misinterpreted or it was the writers making those things up?

 

[CG Didymus]

We can love each other and yet have difference of opinion. We are diverse. Everyone thinks differently. To think differently doesn’t mean we are enemies.

Well someone gave you a "winner" for saying this. But do Baha'is really believe it and live it? So show me how much you "love" your religious "enemies"... especially those Christians that believe as the NT says, Jesus rose from the dead, is coming back and is the only way. You know what they think of you... that you're following a false religion. But what do you think of them? It is almost, and essentially, the same. You believe they have false beliefs and, as you said, aren't following their own Scriptures. So if you and they don't respect each others beliefs, how can you say you love and respect them and their opinions?

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is say they believe in the Bible and in Jesus, but they don't. They have created their own truth about what the Bible says and who Jesus was. I don't believe the Baha'i version of the Bible and Jesus.

Baha'is understand the Bible according to what was revealed by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.
You are free to believe whatever you want to because you have free will.

But Baha'is don't believe in the Scriptures of those other religions either. Although, they act as if they do.

Baha'is do believe in the Scriptures of the other religions, according to our own interpretation of those Scriptures, just like everyone else interprets them according to their own interpretations. Why single out the Baha'is?

I think Judaism and Christianity never gave any indication that other religions were true.

You are right about that, but that does not mean other religions are not true.

I don't say I believe it. How many times do I have to tell you? I doubt them and the Bible even more than I doubt the Baha'i Faith. And the biggest problem I have with the Baha'i Faith is that they say they believe in all the other religions. When, in reality, they don't believe in any of them. As you said... the gospels were written by people way later and my never even have known Jesus.

"believe in all the other religions" does not mean we believe everything in their scriptures is authentic or everything that their religious leaders teach is correct, but we have been over this before.

So where did these stories come from? If not true, as there is always a chance, but if not true then what? It is embellished stories about a make believe God/man that came back to life. Did those writers get some things right?

In my mind there is no chance that Jesus ever rose physically from the grave, although it is possible that Jesus rose in a spiritual body that was seen by the disciples and other people. It sounds like you are still not sure what you believe about it.
Nobody knows why the resurrection stories were written that way.

 

[1213]

Okay, it says he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost... What was he? To say he had a "spiritual" body, as in spirit, Baha'is would agree with you. But what is the difference between a body that is spirit and not physical and that body that Jesus said he had that included flesh and bone?

I don’t know exactly, but by what the Bible tells, it was not the same as spirit, and not exactly like earthly body. But it appeared as physical body.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is understand the Bible according to what was revealed by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.

Okay, prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, who had the correct understanding of the Bible and the NT? Baha'is are saying that much of what was written in the Bible is allegorical... even though it was written as if was telling of actual, historical events. Prior to Baha'u'llah telling them that, who knew? Who took creation, the parting of the seas, Jonah being swallowed by a big fish, the virgin birth and the resurrection as being allegorical? It seems like most Christians and Jews took their Scriptures as being true... the literal truth, the inerrant truth and all that good stuff.

Baha'is do believe in the Scriptures of the other religions, according to our own interpretation of those Scriptures, just like everyone else interprets them according to their own interpretations. Why single out the Baha'is?

Okay, what are the Scriptures of Buddhism and Hinduism that Baha'is believe are true and from the manifestation? With Judaism do Baha'i beliefs in the "Oral Torah"? And even the written Torah was at one time also passed down orally. And what about Paul's writings. He is not the manifestation, yet most of the NT is his letters to various Christian communities. Christians made them Scripture. Why do Baha'is? But then there's the gospels themselves. They have four different writers telling the story about Jesus, but there are contradictions in those stories. So why elevate those stories to "Scripture"? As if God wrote it or at least dictated it?

But Baha'is don't take it as being all that perfect. They can't say it is 100% authoritative. So that is also part of what Baha'is believe about the Bible. But then, which parts? Which stories? Several people wrote stories that got into the Bible and the NT. Who were they? Can we trust what they said? All I can say to Christians I'll listen to you, and I've been around them enough to know what the born-again Christians believe, but not unlike the Baha'is, I don't believe their interpretations. I don't believe everything, like creation, is literal. But, although I say that it might be true, I think religious people made up the stories. And with the gospel writers, they embellished the stories. And because they wrote the story. they made Jesus the one and only way to their God.

Unlike Baha'is, I don't then go say how great and true the Bible and the NT is but make all the things that I don't agree with "symbolic". I've mentioned it before, between the two religions, I'd rather have the Baha'i Faith be true. But I have my doubts that even it is as true as its followers make it out to be. So, in a way, I'm fine with Christians that believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. And I think that is exactly what the writers intended. So I understand why they'd believe such a thing. But, for Baha'is, that is not a belief that can be let to stand and must be challenged. However, one of those challenges is Abdul Baha's explanation in SAQ about the "true" meaning of the resurrection. Sorry, but that is just plain dumb to me.

Call it a lie, a hoax, a fabrication, any of those things and I'll be right there with you. So, if that is so, then the importance of the resurrection is what? Not that it is true and really happened, but that it is made up story and Christianity passed it off as true.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know what they think of you... that you're following a false religion. But what do you think of them? It is almost, and essentially, the same. You believe they have false beliefs and, as you said, aren't following their own Scriptures. So if you and they don't respect each others beliefs, how can you say you love and respect them and their opinions?

You do not know what Christians think of Baha'is and you do not know what Baha'is think of Christians.
Every Christian and every Baha'i is an individual so to say that all Christians think x and all Baha'is think y is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

How do you know that Baha'is and Christians don't respect each others beliefs,?

How do you know that Baha'is do not love and respect Christians and their opinions?

Just because Baha'is disagree with Christians that does not mean we cannot respect their beliefs and opinions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well someone gave you a "winner" for saying this. But do Baha'is really believe it and live it? So show me how much you "love" your religious "enemies"... especially those Christians that believe as the NT says, Jesus rose from the dead, is coming back and is the only way. You know what they think of you... that you're following a false religion. But what do you think of them? It is almost, and essentially, the same. You believe they have false beliefs and, as you said, aren't following their own Scriptures. So if you and they don't respect each others beliefs, how can you say you love and respect them and their opinions?

We are very good friends with the priest here and go to mass regularly and go to dinner sometimes with them and visiting bishops. We are friends outside religion and even the priest rang me up last year and sung happy birthday to me.

I really don’t understand all these accusations that we don’t love or believe in other religions because we do. Religion is about love and fellowship and we get along very well with each other accepting that we have different beliefs.