Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

[Trailblazer]

Okay, prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, who had the correct understanding of the Bible and the NT?

I do not believe that anyone had the complete understanding of the Bible and the NT prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, because Baha’u’llah unsealed the Book as per Daniel 12.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Baha'is are saying that much of what was written in the Bible is allegorical... even though it was written as if was telling of actual, historical events. Prior to Baha'u'llah telling them that, who knew? Who took creation, the parting of the seas, Jonah being swallowed by a big fish, the virgin birth and the resurrection as being allegorical? It seems like most Christians and Jews took their Scriptures as being true... the literal truth, the inerrant truth and all that good stuff.

I think that prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah Christians were beginning to realize that much of what was written in the Bible is allegorical, and they realized that more and more as time went on. Even though they are not Baha’is, Christians are living in the new age of science ushered in by the Bab and Baha’u’llah so they cannot help but be affected by it.

“In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events.”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

Okay, what are the Scriptures of Buddhism and Hinduism that Baha'is believe are true and from the manifestation? With Judaism do Baha'i beliefs in the "Oral Torah"? And even the written Torah was at one time also passed down orally. And what about Paul's writings. He is not the manifestation, yet most of the NT is his letters to various Christian communities. Christians made them Scripture. Why do Baha'is? But then there's the gospels themselves. They have four different writers telling the story about Jesus, but there are contradictions in those stories. So why elevate those stories to "Scripture"? As if God wrote it or at least dictated it?

Baha’is have various beliefs about other religious scriptures; there is no one size fits all.

“Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.”

A Baháí View of the Bible

But Baha'is don't take it as being all that perfect. They can't say it is 100% authoritative. So that is also part of what Baha'is believe about the Bible. But then, which parts? Which stories? Several people wrote stories that got into the Bible and the NT. Who were they? Can we trust what they said? All I can say to Christians I'll listen to you, and I've been around them enough to know what the born-again Christians believe, but not unlike the Baha'is, I don't believe their interpretations. I don't believe everything, like creation, is literal. But, although I say that it might be true, I think religious people made up the stories. And with the gospel writers, they embellished the stories. And because they wrote the story. they made Jesus the one and only way to their God.

You already know about everything there is to know about the Bible and what Baha’is believe. Why don’t you just trust your own judgment and intuition to determine what YOU are going to believe? Why seek opinions of others? Everyone is going to have different opinions and beliefs, so you just end up getting more confused. What I just said reminded me of what Baha’u’llah wrote on this matter.

“The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

What it essentially says in bold italics at the end is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.

What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.

Unlike Baha'is, I don't then go say how great and true the Bible and the NT is but make all the things that I don't agree with "symbolic". I've mentioned it before, between the two religions, I'd rather have the Baha'i Faith be true. But I have my doubts that even it is as true as its followers make it out to be.

Logically speaking, the Baha’i Faith is either true or false, and it all hinges upon whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger (Manifestation of God) or not. It has nothing to do with what the Baha’is do or don’t do, because all humans are fallible and thus imperfect.

So, in a way, I'm fine with Christians that believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. And I think that is exactly what the writers intended. So I understand why they'd believe such a thing. But, for Baha'is, that is not a belief that can be let to stand and must be challenged. However, one of those challenges is Abdul Baha's explanation in SAQ about the "true" meaning of the resurrection. Sorry, but that is just plain dumb to me.

I do not need to challenge the bodily resurrection of Jesus, because it makes no difference to me one way or another, since it does not affect my beliefs if Jesus rose from the dead. I mean even if Jesus did rise it would not change my Baha’i beliefs. What do you think, that I am going to disbelieve in Baha'u'llah and become a Christian just because Jesus rose from te dead? Not a chance in hell of that. Because the bodily resurrection of Jesus would not prove a damn thing about Christianity even if it happened, After all, I already believe I Jesus, so that will never change.

As for Abdul-Baha’s “true” meaning of the resurrection that is just one way to assign meaning. It could have also been the case that the spiritual body of Jesus is what was seen by the disciples and others and Jesus made it look and feel like a physical body, but there is a better chance that the resurrection stories were just myths, as it says here:

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Call it a lie, a hoax, a fabrication, any of those things and I'll be right there with you. So, if that is so, then the importance of the resurrection is what? Not that it is true and really happened, but that it is made up story and Christianity passed it off as true.

As far as I am concerned bodily the resurrection is not important even if it really happened, because a body is just a body and all physical bodies die someday, even the body of Jesus. One reason the stories might have been written was to bring Jesus back to life so Christians could entertain the fantasy belief that Jesus went up into the clouds and will return in the clouds someday. But unless the Bible is in error or Jesus lied, that is never going to happen.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, who had the correct understanding of the Bible and the NT? Baha'is are saying that much of what was written in the Bible is allegorical... even though it was written as if was telling of actual, historical events. Prior to Baha'u'llah telling them that, who knew? Who took creation, the parting of the seas, Jonah being swallowed by a big fish, the virgin birth and the resurrection as being allegorical? It seems like most Christians and Jews took their Scriptures as being true... the literal truth, the inerrant truth and all that good stuff.

Okay, what are the Scriptures of Buddhism and Hinduism that Baha'is believe are true and from the manifestation? With Judaism do Baha'i beliefs in the "Oral Torah"? And even the written Torah was at one time also passed down orally. And what about Paul's writings. He is not the manifestation, yet most of the NT is his letters to various Christian communities. Christians made them Scripture. Why do Baha'is? But then there's the gospels themselves. They have four different writers telling the story about Jesus, but there are contradictions in those stories. So why elevate those stories to "Scripture"? As if God wrote it or at least dictated it?

But Baha'is don't take it as being all that perfect. They can't say it is 100% authoritative. So that is also part of what Baha'is believe about the Bible. But then, which parts? Which stories? Several people wrote stories that got into the Bible and the NT. Who were they? Can we trust what they said? All I can say to Christians I'll listen to you, and I've been around them enough to know what the born-again Christians believe, but not unlike the Baha'is, I don't believe their interpretations. I don't believe everything, like creation, is literal. But, although I say that it might be true, I think religious people made up the stories. And with the gospel writers, they embellished the stories. And because they wrote the story. they made Jesus the one and only way to their God.

Unlike Baha'is, I don't then go say how great and true the Bible and the NT is but make all the things that I don't agree with "symbolic". I've mentioned it before, between the two religions, I'd rather have the Baha'i Faith be true. But I have my doubts that even it is as true as its followers make it out to be. So, in a way, I'm fine with Christians that believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. And I think that is exactly what the writers intended. So I understand why they'd believe such a thing. But, for Baha'is, that is not a belief that can be let to stand and must be challenged. However, one of those challenges is Abdul Baha's explanation in SAQ about the "true" meaning of the resurrection. Sorry, but that is just plain dumb to me.

Call it a lie, a hoax, a fabrication, any of those things and I'll be right there with you. So, if that is so, then the importance of the resurrection is what? Not that it is true and really happened, but that it is made up story and Christianity passed it off as true.

Actually Baha’is say nothing on any of the issues you raised. Baha’is are forbidden to interpret any religious scripture including their own and present it as true.

Baha’is believe that the Promised One of the Gita, Bible, Quran and Buddhist Texts has appeared and He is the One Who has explained the hidden meaning of these Holy Books.

And IF Baha’u’llah is Who He claims to be, then He most definitely has a God given mandate to judge any religion as He represents the Lord of all religions.

And He has done just that pronouncing some views to be incorrect and misunderstandings and revealed their true meaning. The Promised One has authority over all religions as He has been prophesied as the One to Whom their followers should turn to in the future.

In Buddhism, Ananda asked Buddha “Who shall teach us when thou art gone” and Buddha replied that in due time another Buddha would arise called Maitreya and to turn to Him. So you see the Promised Buddha was given a mandate by Buddha Himself and a covenant was made between Buddhists and Buddha to turn to Maitreya when He appears. This is clear. We are saying that we believe Baha’u’llah is the One Buddha referred to.

Again Christians asked a similar question of Christ and He referred them to the Spirit of Truth Who would guide them into all truth. Christ was clearly speaking of a future Promised One as the personal pronoun ‘He’ was mentioned at least nine times in that passage.

Again, a mandate has been given to the Promised One by all religions to explain truth. Also in Revelation when the Book cannot be unsealed there is consternation but then it is said the ‘Lion of the Tribe of Judah’ will unseal the meanings. Again, giving the mandate to unseal the hidden meanings of the scriptures to the Promised One.

The Promised One, as you can see has been given a mandate in every religions Holy texts to reveal the true interpretation and the followers of these religions have been clearly instructed to turn to their Promised One when He appears. So now Baha’u’llah has appeared, it is a test for all religionists to determine whether He is their Promised One or not.

Baha’is are only people from all the major religions who have accepted that He IS the Promised One of their respective religion. So as far as Baha’is understand, we are only remaining faithful to and obeying our previous religion by accepting Baha’u’llah, as we believe He was the fulfillment of their prophecies. By accepting Him we are remaining faithful to our previous religion. So this notion that we are against other religions is untrue. In accepting the Promised One we are proving our faithfulness to our former religion and upholding its truth.

This is most important to understand: would a Christian truly be Christian if he rejected Christ when He returned again or a Buddhist be a true Buddhist if he rejected Maitreya? These are extremely important questions as these texts are binding on the followers of all religions. That is, to reject Christ’s second coming or Maitreya is in fact and truth to disobey and turn against and be unfaithful to ones own religion according to their own texts.

Again using the analogy I was a Christian. If Christ returned snd I rejected Him then what does that make me? If as a Christian I reject His return am I remaining faithful to Jesus? If I listen to my leaders and reject Him am I still a Christian in truth?

The promise of the appearance of the Promised One is in all religions and cannot be escaped. If the Promised One has appeared, then the religions of the world, according to their own texts are obligated to accept Him. Not because we say so but because their own scriptures say so.

All that remains to be determined is Who is He and has He appeared. We believe He has and with the mandate to reveal the true meanings of all the scriptures of any religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well someone gave you a "winner" for saying this. But do Baha'is really believe it and live it? So show me how much you "love" your religious "enemies"... especially those Christians that believe as the NT says, Jesus rose from the dead, is coming back and is the only way. You know what they think of you... that you're following a false religion. But what do you think of them? It is almost, and essentially, the same. You believe they have false beliefs and, as you said, aren't following their own Scriptures. So if you and they don't respect each others beliefs, how can you say you love and respect them and their opinions?

We have deep love for and belief in Jesus and that is a great uniting factor between us.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have deep love for and belief in Jesus and that is a great uniting factor between us.

Yes, but the Jesus born-again Christians love is different than the Jesus of the Baha'i Faith. He conquered Satan. He rose from the dead. He walked on water, and he is coming back. Oh, and that without Jesus' sacrifice, they'd be dead in their sins. How about the Baha'i Jesus? Who was he? A manifestation of God that brought new social laws and revealed a new religion? What social laws and what religion? It was his followers, that in most cases, Baha'is say misinterpreted his message, that wrote the book? So who exactly is this Jesus that you love? 'Cause it can't be the one his followers wrote about, because they were wrong in most of the things they said about him. God speaking from heaven? Doves descending? Him ascending and rising from the dead? Paying the sin debt owed to God because of Adam's sin? Did he calm a storm and walk on water? No? Then if Baha'is say those things were only "symbolic", then they really didn't happen. Those things were fictional. They were made up. So what else did they make up? Oh yes, that they saw him and touched him after he had died. That the tomb was empty and that they watched him ascend into the clouds. Did any of that really happen? Or, did they make it up?

But any of the other "manifestations", do you love them? Abraham? Adam? Moses? Krishna? What do we really know about them? Are they mythical or real? Even if real, how much of the stories about them are real? What is it we love about them? When it comes to Jesus, the Christians I know that really love make him into God. But we know they are wrong and worshipping a false concept of who Jesus is. And, I know Baha'is don't "love" that Jesus... the one that is supposedly God.