Why would Paul never reference Gamaliel's teachings?

[Gnostic Seeker]

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Acts claims he was a student of the Jewish father Rabbi Gamaliel. Why than would Paul never once make reference to anything the Rabbi taught him? That isn't the way of a serious Jewish learner at all.

The Mishna says that a good student is like a cistern that loses not a drop of master's teaching.

This raises the question: was Paul really a student of Gamaliel?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As does Paul's use of the Septuagint

 

[Robert.Evans]

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Acts claims he was a student of the Jewish father Rabbi Gamaliel. Why than would Paul never once make reference to anything the Rabbi taught him? That isn't the way of a serious Jewish learner at all.

The Mishna says that a good student is like a cistern that loses not a drop of master's teaching.

This raises the question: was Paul really a student of Gamaliel?

Perhaps it is an esoteric message only for some?!

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Perhaps it is an esoteric message only for some?!

The portion of the Mishna called the Pirke Avot contains sayings from Gamaliel. They're nothing like the ideas Paul taught. Not only that, but Paul's rhetoric is more Hellenistic, not very Pharasaic.

 

[sincerly]

The portion of the Mishna called the Pirke Avot contains sayings from Gamaliel. They're nothing like the ideas Paul taught. Not only that, but Paul's rhetoric is more Hellenistic, not very Pharasaic.

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Acts claims he was a student of the Jewish father Rabbi Gamaliel. Why than would Paul never once make reference to anything the Rabbi taught him? That isn't the way of a serious Jewish learner at all.

The Mishna says that a good student is like a cistern that loses not a drop of master's teaching.

This raises the question: was Paul really a student of Gamaliel?

GS, In acts 24:14, Paul stated, "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets":
Paul taught the Torah and prophets, but NOT the Mishnah which had the contrary to GOD interpretations of the Torah and the Prophets.
Yes, Paul was a student of Gameliel, but he didn't teach the contrary false beliefs of the "church fathers" who added their comments in those Oral traditions which were written and still believed.(Mishnah). Also, those which Jesus condemned in Mark 7.

 

[Desert Snake]

What? Dude Paul was teaching different things, why would he. Saul to Paul, remember? Sheesh.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Okay and that still doesn't explain why Paul never references Gamaliel, or why his rhetoric isn't very Pharasaic. Paul wasn't above lying about being a Jew. He says in Corinthians he became as a Jew to win Jews.

 

[Desert Snake]

Okay and that still doesn't explain why Paul never references Gamaliel, or why his rhetoric isn't very Pharasaic. Paul wasn't above lying about being a Jew. He says in Corinthians he became as a Jew to win Jews.

Hmm I was just arguing against a position that because Paul was Pharisettic he was thusly opposing Jeshua.
So, some think he is writing from that viewpoint, others not.

My point being, it seems Paul being a Pharisee is not very relevant to the position one takes in these arguments.

Present an argument if you want.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Paul actually being a Pharisee or not is very relevant if one is trying to decide if he's a trustworthy source. If Paul wasn't a Pharisee what other lies did he tell?

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm still trying to figure out why Paul would lie about being a Pharisee. A nasty one as well, as Saul. That is sort of a strange false persona to take on. Winning Jewish converts does not seem like it would be worth the trouble.

 

[sincerly]

What? Dude Paul was teaching different things, why would he. Saul to Paul, remember? Sheesh.

Disciple, Just as Jesus had done, Paul was teaching the Truths presented by "the law(Torah) and the prophets". He was NOT teaching the "traditions and commandments made by the elders/fathers/priest/ rabbis(the oral traditions) as GOD'S Commandments, but contrary to them as they(Jewish leaders) wanted HIM(Jesus) and Paul to do.

There was no "Sheesh". As Paul stated in 1Cor.2:1-5, "
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

 

[sincerly]

Okay and that still doesn't explain why Paul never references Gamaliel, or why his rhetoric isn't very Pharasaic. Paul wasn't above lying about being a Jew. He says in Corinthians he became as a Jew to win Jews.

G_S, Paul didn't lie about his nationality/heritage and you misunderstand the Corinthians quote.
Look at Acts.5:34-39, "Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
Gamaliel wasn't condemning the work of the Sovereign GOD.
Also, Acts 22:3(-15), "I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day."

See Acts 24:14, "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"
Lastly, look at what those who were listening to his teaching did. Acts 17:11, "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

Paul's teachings were then and there verified by the Scriptures which those who sat in Moses' seat read to the
congregation weekly.

Cor.9:19-23. "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;..."
Paul was saying that his compassion is with all as he has "walked" "in their shoes". He knows their trials and tribulations. It is Jesus Christ who was crucified that is the propitiation for the Sins of all---and Paul declares himself the "chief" of those.

 

[1prophet]

PAUL TURNED HIS BACK ON THE RABBIS THAT FOLLOW THE ORAL LAW NOW CALLED THE TALMUD. THAT IS WHY HE NEVER REFERENCED HIM AS IT IS A SIN TO THE TORAH LAW AND THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

 

[sincerly]

PAUL TURNED HIS BACK ON THE RABBIS THAT FOLLOW THE ORAL LAW NOW CALLED THE TALMUD. THAT IS WHY HE NEVER REFERENCED HIM AS IT IS A SIN TO THE TORAH LAW AND THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

1prophet, Paul didn't quote Gamaliel, because Gamaliel had taught from the Law and the testimony of the Prophets. (Isa. 8:20) And As Acts 17:11 confirms, it was the Scriptures which were the finial authority. Jesus had taught from the truths of those same Scriptures.

 

[ChristineES]

Paul was writing letters to certain people for different situations. We don't know what he taught when he was face-to-face with those whom he taught.

 

[roger1440]

Maybe Paul wasn't a very good student. Lets face it, someone has to be at the bottom of the class.

 

[1prophet]

YOU SAID...

"Paul didn't quote Gamaliel, because Gamaliel had taught from the Law and the testimony of the Prophets."

YOUR ISAIAH AND ACTS VERSES DO NOT REFERENCE GAMALIEL. THEY ARE VERSE IN GENERAL. IF GAMALIEL WOULD HAVE TAUGHT FROM THE LAW AND PROPHETS THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO ISSUES. BUT HE WAS A RABBI AND IS TEACHING ORAL LAW. THIS IS THE CONVERSION PAUL HAD - TO LEAVE ORAL LAW.

AS JESUS SAID........
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT GAMALIEL AND HIS BRETHERN.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

YOU SAID...

"Paul didn't quote Gamaliel, because Gamaliel had taught from the Law and the testimony of the Prophets."

YOUR ISAIAH AND ACTS VERSES DO NOT REFERENCE GAMALIEL. THEY ARE VERSE IN GENERAL. IF GAMALIEL WOULD HAVE TAUGHT FROM THE LAW AND PROPHETS THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO ISSUES. BUT HE WAS A RABBI AND IS TEACHING ORAL LAW. THIS IS THE CONVERSION PAUL HAD - TO LEAVE ORAL LAW.

AS JESUS SAID........
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT GAMALIEL AND HIS BRETHERN.

Shouting is both rude and childish.

 

[sincerly]

Paul was writing letters to certain people for different situations. We don't know what he taught when he was face-to-face with those whom he taught.

Hi Christine, Why would Paul teach a different doctrine in an epistle than that which he was teaching face-to-face?
Notice: 2Thess.2:5, (Paul writing), "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Gal.1:8, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Maybe Paul wasn't a very good student. Lets face it, someone has to be at the bottom of the class.

Paul was a very astute student of the Scriptures and Jesus acknowledged the fact that Paul was zealous for GOD. Jesus confronted Paul and Paul was convicted of his previous wrong doings. Paul then was active in the "turning the world upside down" for the Creator GOD until his death.
2Pet.3:15-16 had this to say, "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Where did Paul get his information? Gal.1:11-12, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

"bottom of the class"---Not hardly?---with Jesus being the ultimate teacher.

 

[roger1440]

Hi Christine, Why would Paul teach a different doctrine in an epistle than that which he was teaching face-to-face?
Notice: 2Thess.2:5, (Paul writing), "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Gal.1:8, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."


Paul was a very astute student of the Scriptures and Jesus acknowledged the fact that Paul was zealous for GOD. Jesus confronted Paul and Paul was convicted of his previous wrong doings. Paul then was active in the "turning the world upside down" for the Creator GOD until his death.
2Pet.3:15-16 had this to say, "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Where did Paul get his information? Gal.1:11-12, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

"bottom of the class"---Not hardly?---with Jesus being the ultimate teacher.

Paul was never able to show by using scripture how the Law was able to be put to an end. Jews then as now are still looking for that answer.