Will Atheists & Polyheists burn in Hell according to Bible?

[Jainarayan]

This is not a challenge, just a question:
Wasn't there a lot written in one of the Apocryphal books on hell and torture and burning?
I was just under the impression that it was part of the Septuagint ... making it both available in the First Century common pool of thoughts and pre-Biblical.

[But it was just third hand information and I never bothered to read any of the Apocrypha ... so I am asking.]

Iirc, in Revelation John talks about Hell and eternal punishment ad nauseum. The Catholic Church calls the book Apocalypse from a Greek word meaning "revealed". But we use the word apocalypse to mean doom and gloom. Which the book is anyway.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Thank you Jonathan. I just posted a rather lenthy reply to Ken regarding this whole topic. I cannot fathom someone denying the obvious faiths and myths that formed the Bible as having clear and irrefutable sources.

Yeah. Sure.

Don't forget to include:

Cybele & Attis
Myrrha & Adonis
Ishtar & Tammuz...
etc, etc


Here's a pretty good book:

https://hayaryakanch.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/dictionary-of-god-and-godedesses.pdf
(That's the whole book, free, in PDF form)

AND THIS ONE

Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities - Charles Russell Coulter, Patricia Turner - Google Books
(Again, the whole thing is available on Google Books.

 

[Vishvavajra]

You should know that Scripture alone claims to be the only written revelation of the only true and living God. It claims that all others are false. It does not ask for a "consensus" of opinion. It demands full compliance to all its doctrines.

It's impossible for scripture to refer to itself collectively. Some texts do refer to other texts, others to the concept of scripture generally. Christian authors refer to the Hebrew Bible and sometimes to non-canonical stuff, making no real distinction. Occasionally they reference the texts of rival sects whose scriptures were eventually declared unorthodox and didn't make it int to the canon. But the canon itself was still a couple of centuries off—and let's not pretend that that question has been definitively settled even now. So what counts as "scripture" is hardly an objective category, nor were the Christian scriptures regarded as scriptures when they were composed, so it's impossible for them to be referring to themselves when they talk about scripture. In short, it's a great deal messier than you make it out to be.

For the Christian it is the final authority, the ultimate standard of truth, the supreme court of appeals.

That's true if you replace "Christian" with "Biblicist Protestant." Not if you count the majority of Christians in the world.

There are really only two worldviews - Christian and non-Christian. The Christian rests his final authority on the written revelation of God in the Holy Scriptures. ... You, and all non-Christians, make man the ultimate standard of what is true. So which is more "reasonable", every man believes what is right in his own eyes (subjective/relative truth) or God objectively reveals knowledge (justified true belief) generally in creation and in every man's conscience and specially in His written word?

Some might find it a soothing dichotomy, but it doesn't hold up. Man is the source and arbiter of your interpretation of scripture, which itself was written by the hands of men in the languages of men, using the cultural assumptions of man as its basis. I might say that there are two worldviews: the one that is honest about what scripture is and the one that is not.

But the real irony is that your "Christian" worldview above is also the abode of a rather large number of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others. This is a definition of "Christian" with which I'm not familiar, apparently equivalent to "fundamentalist."

 

[Vishvavajra]

Iirc, in Revelation John talks about Hell and eternal punishment ad nauseum. The Catholic Church calls the book Apocalypse from a Greek word meaning "revealed". But we use the word apocalypse to mean doom and gloom. Which the book is anyway.

Eh, not so much. Various things get thrown into a lake of fire, which is like a mythologized Gehenna. That list notably includes death and Hades. So apparently death itself is going to go to hell. Or rather, death and the realm of the dead are thrown out with the trash, to use modern parlance.

Recall that in the NT literature Christ has come to vanquish death itself. That's a far cry from preventing certain people from going to hell because they did X, Y, or Z. He's actually taken a club to the very concept of death. The scriptures do not say that people die and then go on to this or that place. They don't even say that people die and then get up again. They say that those who follow in Jesus's footsteps do not die.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Occasionally they reference the texts of rival sects whose scriptures were eventually declared unorthodox and didn't make it int to the canon.

Can you give an example of this one?

 

[JoStories]

Yeah. Sure.

Don't forget to include:

Cybele & Attis
Myrrha & Adonis
Ishtar & Tammuz...
etc, etc


Here's a pretty good book:

https://hayaryakanch.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/dictionary-of-god-and-godedesses.pdf
(That's the whole book, free, in PDF form)

AND THIS ONE

Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities - Charles Russell Coulter, Patricia Turner - Google Books
(Again, the whole thing is available on Google Books.

Actually, I have both those books in my library downstairs. Both are good resource books, IMO. But thank you Jonathan.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Can you give an example of this one?

I'll admit to making certain assumptions, but here's an example that will illustrate my reasoning:

The Gospel of John is very interested in portraying the incarnate Jesus, including bodily resurrection. If you look at the Johannine epistles, which are thought to have been written by the same author, or at least within the same tradition, you'll see that they're specifically calling the doctrine that Jesus only appeared to be human while actually having no earthly substance as heretical. That doctrine, which is associated with the non-canonical Gospel of Peter, would come to be called "Docetism" and was regarded as heresy by the orthodox by the end of the 2nd century.

The Gospel of Peter itself may well postdate the Johannine literature, so I'm not necessarily saying that was the text John was polemicizing against, but we know there were a number of rival Gospels and epistles floating around in the 2nd century, not to mention earlier Jewish writings that were later rejected by the canonizers (e.g. 1 Enoch, part of which is reproduced in the NT epistle of Jude, whose author clealry treated it as legitimate scripture), and I see no reason to think the late 1st century was any different. Also, the fact that the Johannine author feels the need to address these doctrines in writing may itself indicate a rival textual tradition. The problem is that even with the Dead Sea and Nag Hammadi stuff and the polemics of the church fathers, we still have a woefully incomplete picture of all the stuff that people were referring to.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I'll admit to making certain assumptions, but here's an example that will illustrate my reasoning:

The Gospel of John is very interested in portraying the incarnate Jesus, including bodily resurrection. If you look at the Johannine epistles, which are thought to have been written by the same author, or at least within the same tradition, you'll see that they're specifically calling the doctrine that Jesus only appeared to be human while actually having no earthly substance as heretical. That doctrine, which is associated with the non-canonical Gospel of Peter, would come to be called "Docetism" and was regarded as heresy by the orthodox by the end of the 2nd century.

The Gospel of Peter itself may well postdate the Johannine literature, so I'm not necessarily saying that was the text John was polemicizing against, but we know there were a number of rival Gospels and epistles floating around in the 2nd century, not to mention earlier Jewish writings that were later rejected by the canonizers (e.g. 1 Enoch, part of which is reproduced in the NT epistle of Jude, whose author clealry treated it as legitimate scripture), and I see no reason to think the late 1st century was any different. Also, the fact that the Johannine author feels the need to address these doctrines in writing may itself indicate a rival textual tradition. The problem is that even with the Dead Sea and Nag Hammadi stuff and the polemics of the church fathers, we still have a woefully incomplete picture of all the stuff that people were referring to.

Thanks.
I was familiar with Jude and Enoch, but I haven't really read much about any others. I'll make a note of something else to look into.

 

[jeager106]

Jehovah witness believe that Jesus will come and wipe out everybody except them.

They do?????
I'm not a baptised JW. I do study with an elder who is a JW, born into it as were his parents.
He's a very fine man.

 

[pro4life]

They do?????
I'm not a baptised JW. I do study with an elder who is a JW, born into it as were his parents.
He's a very fine man.

Yes

 

[jeager106]

Yes

Maybe I better ramp up the study and get baptised?
The world is going to crap pretty fast ya know?

 

[truthofscripture]

My dear jewish and christian friends of RF. Do u believe what bible says that disbelievers from muslims, atheists and polytheists will be roasted in hell?

Yes or no and why

Most certainly not. Hell, in Jesus' contemporary day, meang "common grave of mankind", as does sheol and Hades. They all three mean grave. It wasn't until later that pagandom infiltrated religions claiming to be Christian that this hellfire nonsense came about. Pagans also believed in the immortality of the soul. Christians never did until pagandom entered into the Christian religions in 325 c.e. No hell as a place of torment, and as the scriptures clearly and repeatedly teach, we do NOT have an immortal soul. The scriptures say when we die, our sins are forgotten, to be remembered no more. The scriptures tell us that there will be a resurrection (to Earth) of the unrighteous, and that the righteous will be resurrected into spirit beings and will go to rule Earth with Jesus, from heaven.

 

[truthofscripture]

Maybe I better ramp up the study and get baptised?
The world is going to crap pretty fast ya know?

It would probably be a very good idea. I truly hope you succeed. There is only a tiny bit of time left. One sign left indicating Armageddon. All of the other signs are completely fulfilled. The beginning of the pangs of distress began 100 years ago.

 

[jeager106]

It would probably be a very good idea. I truly hope you succeed. There is only a tiny bit of time left. One sign left indicating Armageddon. All of the other signs are completely fulfilled. The beginning of the pangs of distress began 100 years ago.

Care to elaborate on your speculations?
The J.W. I study with (including an elder and some of my family members) don't agree with what you speculate.
Oct. of 1914 was the 100 year mark.

 

[truthofscripture]

Care to elaborate on your speculations?
The J.W. I study with (including an elder and some of my family members) don't agree with what you speculate.
Oct. of 1914 was the 100 year mark.

The beginnings of the pangs of distress that Jesus spoke of started with the first world war. It marked the end of the Gentile times. The beginning of the end times. How could they disagree with that? It doesn't make a wit of sense. You should re-query them and elaborate more clearly.

 

[jeager106]

The beginnings of the pangs of distress that Jesus spoke of started with the first world war. It marked the end of the Gentile times. The beginning of the end times. How could they disagree with that? It doesn't make a wit of sense. You should re-query them and elaborate more clearly.

I believe we are in the "deep end times" but how much time is left no one knows.

 

[truthofscripture]

I believe we are in the "deep end times" but how much time is left no one knows.

True that. No one knows but Jehovah.

Anyone who was anointed after the death of the last of the anointed ones in the first group—that is, after those who witnessed the “beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914—would not be part of “this generation.”—Matt. 24:8.

4 The apostle Paul relates that in a vision “he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words.” What is that “paradise”? Not some stage of a physical heavens, but a spiritual paradise that would at some future date bring joy to God’s people right here on this earth.—2 Corinthians 12:1-4.
5 Jehovah established this spiritual paradise in his own due time. In the latter part of the nineteenth century, sincere Bible students became aware that many of the practices and teachings of Christendom’s churches stemmed from ancient Babylon’s religion, and not from the Bible. They began to expose false teachings such as the inherent immortality of the soul, hellfire torment and the Trinity, and to restore the Bible teachings on Jesus’ ransom, the resurrection and God’s kingdom. From 1879, they have continuously published the Watchtower magazine as a champion of Bible truth. For more than thirty years, on the basis of Bible chronology, they pointed forward to 1914 as significant in Bible prophecy. And when 1914 came, World War I broke out, to be followed by other troubles, marking “a beginning of pangs of distress,” just as Jesus had foretold. During that period, the world’s religious leaders reviled and heaped “hatred” upon Jehovah’s faithful witnesses, but by 1919 these had broken clear of all bondage to the world empire of false religion—“Babylon the Great.” (Matthew 24:3-9; Revelation 17:5) They pressed forward on a “Way of Holiness,” into the spiritual paradise of which the prophet wrote long ago:

27 Of the time leading up to his execution of judgment, Jehovah says prophetically: “I will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom.” (Isaiah 19:2) Since the establishment of God’s Kingdom in 1914, “the sign of [Jesus’] presence” has been marked by nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom. Tribal massacres, bloody genocides, and so-called ethnic cleansings have claimed millions of lives during these last days. Such “pangs of distress” will only get worse as the end draws nearer.—Matthew 24:3, 7, 8.

33 In Jesus’ day, some of the disciples who heard his words, and others of his contemporaries, survived to live through the final “tribulation” on the Jewish system of things. They were the “generation” of Jesus’ time. At this writing, in the United States alone there are more than 10,000,000 persons still living who were old enough to observe “a beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914-1918. Some of these may still survive quite a number of years. Yet Jesus assures us that, before “this generation” passes away, he will come as “Son of man” to execute judgment on Satan’s system of things. (Matthew 24:8, 21, 37-39) We should keep awake, expectant of that ‘coming of the kingdom.’—Luke 21:31-36.

All of these are quotes from various books in the cd library after searching "pangs of distress". I cannot imagine an elder not being aware of these books. I have hundreds of them dating back to Russell, through today that all say the same thing, that the pangs of distress began when Jesus took his throne in 1914.

The only sign we are awaiting now is the announcing of "peace and security when Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion" falls, having been destroyed by the 8th great world power, the U.N.

 

[Shak34]

True that. No one knows but Jehovah.

Anyone who was anointed after the death of the last of the anointed ones in the first group—that is, after those who witnessed the “beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914—would not be part of “this generation.”—Matt. 24:8.

4 The apostle Paul relates that in a vision “he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words.” What is that “paradise”? Not some stage of a physical heavens, but a spiritual paradise that would at some future date bring joy to God’s people right here on this earth.—2 Corinthians 12:1-4.
5 Jehovah established this spiritual paradise in his own due time. In the latter part of the nineteenth century, sincere Bible students became aware that many of the practices and teachings of Christendom’s churches stemmed from ancient Babylon’s religion, and not from the Bible. They began to expose false teachings such as the inherent immortality of the soul, hellfire torment and the Trinity, and to restore the Bible teachings on Jesus’ ransom, the resurrection and God’s kingdom. From 1879, they have continuously published the Watchtower magazine as a champion of Bible truth. For more than thirty years, on the basis of Bible chronology, they pointed forward to 1914 as significant in Bible prophecy. And when 1914 came, World War I broke out, to be followed by other troubles, marking “a beginning of pangs of distress,” just as Jesus had foretold. During that period, the world’s religious leaders reviled and heaped “hatred” upon Jehovah’s faithful witnesses, but by 1919 these had broken clear of all bondage to the world empire of false religion—“Babylon the Great.” (Matthew 24:3-9; Revelation 17:5) They pressed forward on a “Way of Holiness,” into the spiritual paradise of which the prophet wrote long ago:

27 Of the time leading up to his execution of judgment, Jehovah says prophetically: “I will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom.” (Isaiah 19:2) Since the establishment of God’s Kingdom in 1914, “the sign of [Jesus’] presence” has been marked by nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom. Tribal massacres, bloody genocides, and so-called ethnic cleansings have claimed millions of lives during these last days. Such “pangs of distress” will only get worse as the end draws nearer.—Matthew 24:3, 7, 8.

33 In Jesus’ day, some of the disciples who heard his words, and others of his contemporaries, survived to live through the final “tribulation” on the Jewish system of things. They were the “generation” of Jesus’ time. At this writing, in the United States alone there are more than 10,000,000 persons still living who were old enough to observe “a beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914-1918. Some of these may still survive quite a number of years. Yet Jesus assures us that, before “this generation” passes away, he will come as “Son of man” to execute judgment on Satan’s system of things. (Matthew 24:8, 21, 37-39) We should keep awake, expectant of that ‘coming of the kingdom.’—Luke 21:31-36.

All of these are quotes from various books in the cd library after searching "pangs of distress". I cannot imagine an elder not being aware of these books. I have hundreds of them dating back to Russell, through today that all say the same thing, that the pangs of distress began when Jesus took his throne in 1914.

The only sign we are awaiting now is the announcing of "peace and security when Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion" falls, having been destroyed by the 8th great world power, the U.N.

Could you please cite all of these quotes so they can be looked up?

 

[jeager106]

truthofscripture:
I'm aware of all that. It's you I don't know but now feel more confident in what you say.
The U.N. us a toothless tiger. For now.
This will change I believe and we will likely live long enough to see that change.
Christendom is in deep doo-doo and all those who follow her.
I began to take religion seriously some 18 years ago and learned how satanized Chrsitendom really it.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone with eyes can't see this.
Does anyone really think it's o.k. to observe Christs sacrifice for us with chicken eggs and chocolate rabbits?
Does no one wonder if God is highly insutled to see His creations openly practice pagan rituals with the death of His
only begotten Son?
It's gonna get really ugly soon enough.

 

[jeager106]

Shak34:
Go to jw.org and learn to use the web site. Many questions will be answered for you if you are interested
in mankinds future.