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Will someone please talk to me?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He sent the holy spirit to help them.
This is what stood out to me. And now he sends men to help us. Some people deserve the Holy Spirit. Some people do not. Two flocks, not one. John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
Jay, how is the date "1914" proof they were guided by Holy Spirit?
They had other dates where prophecies were meant to happen and didn't,
The JW hanged on to "1914" as Christ taking the throne and the beginning of the last days because you can not prove it. You can not see Christ off the throne and then sitting on it in October 1914 can you? You have to have blind faith that he did take the thrown from 1914.
How do you know Holy Spirit wanted them to calculate any dates? It could be something that Russell just read in to, like he read the date "1914" in a pyramid.
If Rusell go everything wrong, how is then switching some beliefs around that are INVISIBLE and you can not prove evidence of Holy Spirit?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
And the Ukarit too. It meant "god" or "deity" or something like that.

It was the highest god of the Canaanites. (If I understand it right.)

El can apply to any diety. Even satan is called El in the scritpures...so are angels and so are the jewish people.

So there is no basis in believing that El is directly related to the Almighty God. It can relate to him, but it is just a title meaning 'mighty' or 'strong'
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Jay, how is the date "1914" proof they were guided by Holy Spirit?
They had other dates where prophecies were meant to happen and didn't,
The JW hanged on to "1914" as Christ taking the throne and the beginning of the last days because you can not prove it. You can not see Christ off the throne and then sitting on it in October 1914 can you? You have to have blind faith that he did take the thrown from 1914.

OK, firstly if you look at the "prophesies" that were supposed to have failed, you will see that it is the same prophesy about the coming of God's kingdom and the time for the first resurrection to take place. (Rev 20:6) There was a lot of excitement about 1914 and the fact that it was calculated using the same method that the Jews used to ascertain when Messiah was due to appear. (Daniel 9:24-26) They were expecting him at the time when John the Baptist first began his preparation work (like Elijah, preparing the way of the Lord)

Only the prophet Daniel was privileged to see the enthronement of Christ in heaven. (Dan 7:13, 14) It was not seen by human eyes. But the "sign" Jesus gave to indicate that his rulership had begun became ever more evident from 1914 on. (Matt 24:3) As time has gone on increasing light on or path has helped us to discern things more clearly. (Prov 4:18) The Bible Students came to realize that "the end" was really a beginning and that their being taken to heaven was only after the good news 'was preached in all creation under heaven.'
It was not time to go to heaven but to roll up their sleeves for the task at hand.

The Psalms indicate that there was to be a period when Jesus would 'sit at the right hand of God awaiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet.' Then, when that was done, "the rod of his strength" (or his authority to rule) was to go out of Zion (God's seat of rulership over his people) He was then to go 'subduing in the midst of his enemies'. (Psalm 110:1, 2) So no peace would come from Christ's rulership at the start....just the opposite in fact. The 'last days' of the present system would be marked by terrible events and awful human behavior. (Matt 24:3-14; 2 Tim 3:1-5) It would culminate in a tribulation on earth, the likes of which have never been seen before and will never be seen again. (Matt 24:21) Initially it was not envisioned to be such a long period...but that is in God's hands, not ours. (Hab 2:3) He operates in a different timeframe, unencumbered by the earth's rotation. It is his schedule, not ours.

How do you know Holy Spirit wanted them to calculate any dates? It could be something that Russell just read in to, like he read the date "1914" in a pyramid.
If Rusell go everything wrong, how is then switching some beliefs around that are INVISIBLE and you can not prove evidence of Holy Spirit?
Jesus said you would be able to identify his true disciples by their "fruits" or actions. (Matt 7:13-23) Weeds would be growing along with the wheat. Only at the harvest would the difference be obvious. We need to use discernment.

None of Jesus' disciples were perfect. They were flawed characters encumbered by sin just like all the rest of humanity. The thing that made them different especially in "the time of the end" was that they stuck to the scriptures and they accepted the 'cleansing and refining' that Daniel foretold for our day. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)
The first Christians did the same thing, cleansing themselves by rejecting the man made traditions of Judaism.

Look at the hopelessly fractured state of Christendom and ask yourself if Jesus would accept such a disunited arrangement as his teachings and his church? (1 Cor 1:10)

Jesus, using the holy spirit is responsible for getting the preaching of the kingdom accomplished "in all the inhabited earth" and this was "for a witness to all the nations" before he would come to bring all mankind to an accounting with the separation of the sheep from the goats. "The end" will come, ready or not.

God does not look at labels, but at hearts. He looks at how people respond to the kingdom message and he also expects that they will have obeyed his directive to "get out of" Babylon the great. (Rev 18:4, 5) He would not tell us to get out of one religious situation unless he had another place for us to go. He has always had an organized people who have been expected to obey his laws to the letter. Paul says that they would regularly meet together to "incite to love and fine works" and "all the more so as we beheld the day (of judgment) drawing near". (Heb 10:24, 25)

No one teaches what Jehovah's Witnesses do. We have removed so many false doctrines and traditions that have crept in over the centuries because we are mindful that polluted worship is unacceptable to Jehovah. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

We cop all the flack because there is something in us that draws us to the truth and causes us to want to expose error. (John 15:17-20) We believe that it is God's spirit. Since no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father, it is God who determines whether a person is worthy of an opportunity for salvation. (John 6:44) It is a gift after all, but not one without conditions.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK, firstly if you look at the "prophesies" that were supposed to have failed, you will see that it is the same prophesy about the coming of God's kingdom and the time for the first resurrection to take place. (Rev 20:6) There was a lot of excitement about 1914 and the fact that it was calculated using the same method that the Jews used to ascertain when Messiah was due to appear. (Daniel 9:24-26) They were expecting him at the time when John the Baptist first began his preparation work (like Elijah, preparing the way of the Lord)

Only the prophet Daniel was privileged to see the enthronement of Christ in heaven. (Dan 7:13, 14) It was not seen by human eyes. But the "sign" Jesus gave to indicate that his rulership had begun became ever more evident from 1914 on. (Matt 24:3) As time has gone on increasing light on or path has helped us to discern things more clearly. (Prov 4:18) The Bible Students came to realize that "the end" was really a beginning and that their being taken to heaven was only after the good news 'was preached in all creation under heaven.'
It was not time to go to heaven but to roll up their sleeves for the task at hand.

The Psalms indicate that there was to be a period when Jesus would 'sit at the right hand of God awaiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet.' Then, when that was done, "the rod of his strength" (or his authority to rule) was to go out of Zion (God's seat of rulership over his people) He was then to go 'subduing in the midst of his enemies'. (Psalm 110:1, 2) So no peace would come from Christ's rulership at the start....just the opposite in fact. The 'last days' of the present system would be marked by terrible events and awful human behavior. (Matt 24:3-14; 2 Tim 3:1-5) It would culminate in a tribulation on earth, the likes of which have never been seen before and will never be seen again. (Matt 24:21) Initially it was not envisioned to be such a long period...but that is in God's hands, not ours. (Hab 2:3) He operates in a different timeframe, unencumbered by the earth's rotation. It is his schedule, not ours.

Jesus said you would be able to identify his true disciples by their "fruits" or actions. (Matt 7:13-23) Weeds would be growing along with the wheat. Only at the harvest would the difference be obvious. We need to use discernment.

None of Jesus' disciples were perfect. They were flawed characters encumbered by sin just like all the rest of humanity. The thing that made them different especially in "the time of the end" was that they stuck to the scriptures and they accepted the 'cleansing and refining' that Daniel foretold for our day. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)
The first Christians did the same thing, cleansing themselves by rejecting the man made traditions of Judaism.

Look at the hopelessly fractured state of Christendom and ask yourself if Jesus would accept such a disunited arrangement as his teachings and his church? (1 Cor 1:10)

Jesus, using the holy spirit is responsible for getting the preaching of the kingdom accomplished "in all the inhabited earth" and this was "for a witness to all the nations" before he would come to bring all mankind to an accounting with the separation of the sheep from the goats. "The end" will come, ready or not.

God does not look at labels, but at hearts. He looks at how people respond to the kingdom message and he also expects that they will have obeyed his directive to "get out of" Babylon the great. (Rev 18:4, 5) He would not tell us to get out of one religious situation unless he had another place for us to go. He has always had an organized people who have been expected to obey his laws to the letter. Paul says that they would regularly meet together to "incite to love and fine works" and "all the more so as we beheld the day (of judgment) drawing near". (Heb 10:24, 25)

No one teaches what Jehovah's Witnesses do. We have removed so many false doctrines and traditions that have crept in over the centuries because we are mindful that polluted worship is unacceptable to Jehovah. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

We cop all the flack because there is something in us that draws us to the truth and causes us to want to expose error. (John 15:17-20) We believe that it is God's spirit. Since no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father, it is God who determines whether a person is worthy of an opportunity for salvation. (John 6:44) It is a gift after all, but not one without conditions.

I don't know. It seems to me Jesus said you will be judged by your own words, not somebody elses. Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.


Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Can Jehovah's Witnesses please see what they are full of?

All of the heart is suppose to be for YHVH. How is it possible to fill it up with something else but believe it is all for Jehovah?

Also, YHVH promised to write the law on hearts. The Watchtower doctrine isn't the LAW.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Successful people who do any kind of business know how to choose competent, capable, strong and loyal people to assist in their business at hand. And all together they prove successful for a job well done.

But it is said that Jesus said "Watch out that no one deceives you". Why would a strong, capable and loyal person need that warning?

Does a business man hire anyone he believes will turn traitor? Why would Jesus do it?

He wouldn't. All the Bibles have Jesus saying see that you are not misled.

Ephesians 4:11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,

When Jesus said beware that you are not deceived or misled who was he talking to?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have said it does not say that. I have said it is Jesus saying see that you do not mislead. Saying see that you are not misled causes a condition of alertless looking out for those who CAN mislead. Why would anyone look for those?

Saying see that you don't mislead causes a continuous examination of the self in light of The Word.

I can certainly see why someone sometime before us changed it. If it read the correct way it would actually alert the reader that it is possible some are apt to mislead. And religious leaders want trust (even though the Bible clearly warns against it) not doubt.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
In this internet age, it is easy to look things up very quickly, but back at the turn of last century, research was arduous and time consuming. It took many years of research to come to conclusions and then to examine them further in the light of other scripture. Refining is a process, just as cleansing is.

We know that the great pyramids were constructed approx 2,500 years BCE, well before Abraham was even born (in 2018 BCE) and well before the Hebrews became a nation upon their release from slavery in 1513 BCE, so the pyramids could not have been constructed by the Hebrews.

The calculation for 1914 is demonstrated here....in case you are interested.

"Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?
Two lines of evidence point to that year: (1) Bible chronology and (2) the events since 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy. Here we will consider the chronology. For fulfillment of prophecy, see the main heading “Last Days.”

Read Daniel 4:1-17. Verses 20-37 show that this prophecy had a fulfillment upon Nebuchadnezzar. But it also has a larger fulfillment. How do we know that? Verses 3 and 17 show that the dream that God gave to King Nebuchadnezzar deals with the Kingdom of God and God’s promise to give it “to the one whom he wants to . . . even the lowliest one of mankind.” The entire Bible shows that Jehovah’s purpose is for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to rule as His representative over mankind. (Psalm. 2:1-8; Dan. 7:13, 14; 1 Cor. 15:23-25; Rev. 11:15; 12:10) The Bible’s description of Jesus shows that he was indeed “the lowliest one of mankind.” (Phil. 2:7, 8; Matt. 11:28-30) The prophetic dream, then, points to the time when Jehovah would give rulership over mankind to his own Son.

What was to happen in the meantime? Rulership over mankind, as represented by the tree and its rootstock, would have “the heart of a beast.” (Dan. 4:16) The history of mankind would be dominated by governments that displayed the characteristics of wild beasts. In modern times, the bear is commonly used to represent Russia; the eagle, the United States; the lion, Britain; the dragon, China. The Bible also uses wild beasts as symbols of world governments and of the entire global system of human rulership under the influence of Satan. (Dan. 7:2-8, 17, 23; 8:20-22; Rev. 13:1, 2) As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.

For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.
When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2; for further details, see the book “Let Your Kingdom Come,” pages 186-189.)
How, then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.

CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES
“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)
In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Dan. 7:13, 14.

Then why is there still so much wickedness on earth? After Christ was enthroned, Satan and his demons were hurled out of heaven and down to the earth. (Rev. 12:12) Christ as King did not immediately proceed to destroy all who refused to acknowledge Jehovah’s sovereignty and himself as the Messiah. Instead, as he had foretold, a global preaching work was to be done. (Matt. 24:14) As King he would direct a dividing of peoples of all nations, those proving to be righteous being granted the prospect of everlasting life, and the wicked being consigned to everlasting cutting-off in death. (Matt. 25:31-46) In the meantime, the very difficult conditions foretold for “the last days” would prevail. As shown under the heading “Last Days,” those events have been clearly in evidence since 1914. Before the last members of the generation that was alive in 1914 will have passed off the scene, all the things foretold will occur, including the “great tribulation” in which the present wicked world will end.—Matt. 24:21, 22, 34." (Information from Reasoning from the Scriptures WTBTS)

Can I please clarify something, when you are talking about October 607 BCE are you referring to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can I please clarify something, when you are talking about October 607 BCE are you referring to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC)

They do not care about what any one else knows is true. They believe Satan runs the world and will cause a stumbling any way he can, except for Bible translations. They believe those. They trust satan when he agrees with them but not if he doesn't.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
They do not care about what any one else knows is true. They believe Satan runs the world and will cause a stumbling any way he can, except for Bible translations. They believe those. They trust satan when he agrees with them but not if he doesn't.

Ok, I was looking about the net for information on the fall of Jerusalem and apparently it never happened in 607 BC, which would make 1914 the wrong date all together.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok, I was looking about the net for information on the fall of Jerusalem and apparently it never happened in 607 BC, which would make 1914 the wrong date all together.

It seems 607 is not historically accurate. Please don't forget the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses who feed the flock of JWs are viewed as THE channel by which truth comes to the truth seeker. It is hard to impossible for them to believe anything else. The governing body is sticking to the 607 date. It would be very surprising if they ever changed it seeing that it is one of the cornerstones of their belief.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
It seems 607 is not historically accurate. Please don't forget the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses who feed the flock of JWs are viewed as THE channel by which truth comes to the truth seeker. It is hard to impossible for them to believe anything else. The governing body is sticking to the 607 date. It would be very surprising if they ever changed it seeing that it is one of the cornerstones of their belief.

Yeah I understand that, but "we are inspired by the holy spirit" doesn't work with me, I always have to ask questions :D
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
They are ALONE being inspired by the Holy Spirit. :sad:

Well doesn't the bible say love is greater than faith? If that is the case God is with a lot of people outside of the watchtower. People will always have different interpretations of the bible but as long as they have love in their hearts isn't that what matters most to God? Anyway, that is what I got from the NT.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well doesn't the bible say love is greater than faith? If that is the case God is with a lot of people outside of the watchtower. People will always have different interpretations of the bible but as long as they have love in their hearts isn't that what matters most to God? Anyway, that is what I got from the NT.

Yes. The two greatest commands. Love and thinking alike are not the same thing. They seem to put thinking alike first, love second.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
 
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