That doesn't mean that the elders can not talk to the police about it. Heavens, they might even get some background on the person. You know, evidence?
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Will someone please talk to me?
- Thread starter savagewind
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Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
The problem with that though, is that victims from Australia, UK and the US and other places have come out saying the same things.
Curious George
Veteran Member
I am not talking about guilt. I am talking about accusations. The elders should not assume guilt, but it is not there job to check the legitimacy of complaints. You suggest that I am quick to convict- but I am not talking about convictions. I am talking about reporting to the PROPER people who can take a PROPER assessment.
The elders cannot file charges. I agree that is not their place. The elders should not go about telling everyone in the congregation "there is a rapist in our flock." what they should do is report the incident to the proper authorities because an elder is not a PROPER authority.
Again- there is no assumption of guilt. Only taking any and all allegations serious.
Curious George
Veteran Member
I am not sure how Australia's system works. In most places the government can file charges on behalf of the child. I would assume that the same is true there. But filing a "formal report" is quite different than reporting allegations.
I do not understand how the most rational Jehovah's Witness believes the Holy Spirit directs the organization but to handle a child abuse case properly the elders need indisputable evidence, other than the child's testimony, to be able to call the alleged perpetrator guilty or just plain unfit to associate with the Christian congregation.
The young child who has been abused and ignored can not sweep that fact away. "They don't believe me?" to an untrained mind means God doesn't believe her or doesn't think it is worth the trouble to get rid of the man. A child hears "God's organization" but God won't help her. It is amazing there are still people who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses. Is the Holy Spirit guiding the organization or not? If yes, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit reveal the truth or the lie about the accusation? There are other children's lives involved. Everyone knows a pedophile does not usually limit his abuse to only one child. Isn't that so?
The young child who has been abused and ignored can not sweep that fact away. "They don't believe me?" to an untrained mind means God doesn't believe her or doesn't think it is worth the trouble to get rid of the man. A child hears "God's organization" but God won't help her. It is amazing there are still people who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses. Is the Holy Spirit guiding the organization or not? If yes, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit reveal the truth or the lie about the accusation? There are other children's lives involved. Everyone knows a pedophile does not usually limit his abuse to only one child. Isn't that so?
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
yes, the authorities such as the Department of Human Services can file reports. But thats because they are the government and have the authority to do so. Inter government agencies can work together.
The elders in our congregations are not government agents or police. If they are told of a situation, they ask the parents to go to the relevant authorities and that is what should happen. Our elders are not police and cannot prosecute people or jail them.....its a matter for the police. And the most the elders can do is confirm that the accusation has been made and give evidence to that effect.
On the other hand people who are Jehovah's Witnesses will sometimes say that the Holy Spirit is not for the individual Christian but for the saving of the Christian Congregation. How does the Holy Spirit save the Christian Congregation? It reveals accurate knowledge to it's leaders. Let's break that down shall we?
Love builds up but knowledge puffs up.
Stumble one of these little ones who have put faith in The Son of God and it would be better for that person to have been thrown into the mighty sea with a millstone around his neck.
OK. The Holy Spirit won't act to protect the children but it will act to protect knowledge. Hm. That's not right, is it?
New Living Translation 1 Corinthians 8:1
Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that "we all have knowledge" about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
Luke 17:2
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.
Love builds up but knowledge puffs up.
Stumble one of these little ones who have put faith in The Son of God and it would be better for that person to have been thrown into the mighty sea with a millstone around his neck.
OK. The Holy Spirit won't act to protect the children but it will act to protect knowledge. Hm. That's not right, is it?
New Living Translation 1 Corinthians 8:1
Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that "we all have knowledge" about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
Luke 17:2
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
I have examined the issue and understand the frustration and anger, but at the same time I understand the position of the elders. They can only do so much.
Child abuse is an extremely emotive subject, and rightly so. But the elders can only follow scriptural guidelines. They can only advise based upon what the Bible says. If there is enough evidence, then those who believe that abuse has taken place, will be encouraged to go to the relevant authorities.
If one family alone has brought an accusation against an individual and no other witnesses come forward, the police can still be contacted by the ones who believe that abuse has taken place. It is not up to the elders to do that.
The authorities have psychologists who interview young children in a relaxed environment and can determine if abuse has taken place, so yes, of course the testimony of the child is valid.
If abuse has been proven, then both legal and congregational action will be taken.
No substantiated proof means that a person accused has the right to defend themselves. A child's 'evidence' based upon their evaluation of what took place will be used by the prosecution. The accused has a right to defend.
On the other hand, some have had aspersions cast on their character that has stuck even when proven innocent.
It is a very serious charge to bring against anyone with only a suspicion.
I will give you an example from my own family.
My husband is in his mid sixties and we often used to take our grandchildren to the park. If he saw a child having difficulty, his first response was to rush over to help them. The child's patents could have misinterpreted his intentions and accused him of touching their child inappropriately. He couldn't understand why we kept telling him he couldn't help a child when it was needed because others would think he was a child molester. He was horrified! But someone could have called the police and had him charged.
How would he have proven his innocence? It's a minefield. No decent person will condone or cover up child abuse, but at the same time, a fair trial should precede any action taken. The laws of God and the laws of the land demand that justice be carried out.....but not before due process.
In the meantime protecting the child from further abuse should be paramount.
The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses considers itself "God's spirit directed organization". When a person is baptized the question is asked "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"
So when you say that what I have quoted above what do you mean? The Bible is not God. Is the Bible God's spirit according to you?
If they are spirit directed as they say they are then it is by the prayer for wisdom and by the spirit of truth that they should be guides and protectors, not only by what is written.
If I read your post above literally it is saying the scriptures are all that they have.
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Jesus said "follow me". I have quoted you saying the elders "can only follow scriptural guidelines". What do you mean please?
John 12:26
Luke 9:59
Mark 2:14
John 10:27
Matthew 9:9
Matthew 8:22
Luke 5:27
John 21:22
Matthew 10:38
John 1:43
John 21:19
Matthew 4:19
Luke 9:59
Mark 2:14
John 10:27
Matthew 9:9
Matthew 8:22
Luke 5:27
John 21:22
Matthew 10:38
John 1:43
John 21:19
Matthew 4:19
Whoever serves me must follow me
He said to another man, "Follow me
"Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
"Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
"Follow me," Jesus said to him
..."what is that to you? You must follow me."
Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."
Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will send you out to fish for people."
Did Jesus say follow what I say? No, he did not.
Did Jesus say follow who I will send? No, he did not.
Did he say follow what is written about me? No, he did not.
He said to follow him. How?
John 14:15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you
John 15:26'And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me
John 16:7 However, I am telling you the truth: It's good for you that I'm going away. If I don't go away, the helper won't come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened
He said to another man, "Follow me
"Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
"Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
"Follow me," Jesus said to him
..."what is that to you? You must follow me."
Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."
Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will send you out to fish for people."
Did Jesus say follow what I say? No, he did not.
Did Jesus say follow who I will send? No, he did not.
Did he say follow what is written about me? No, he did not.
He said to follow him. How?
John 14:15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you
John 15:26'And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me
John 16:7 However, I am telling you the truth: It's good for you that I'm going away. If I don't go away, the helper won't come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
I have examined the issue and understand the frustration and anger, but at the same time I understand the position of the elders. They can only do so much.
Child abuse is an extremely emotive subject, and rightly so. But the elders can only follow scriptural guidelines. They can only advise based upon what the Bible says. If there is enough evidence, then those who believe that abuse has taken place, will be encouraged to go to the relevant authorities.
If one family alone has brought an accusation against an individual and no other witnesses come forward, the police can still be contacted by the ones who believe that abuse has taken place. It is not up to the elders to do that.
The authorities have psychologists who interview young children in a relaxed environment and can determine if abuse has taken place, so yes, of course the testimony of the child is valid.
If abuse has been proven, then both legal and congregational action will be taken.
No substantiated proof means that a person accused has the right to defend themselves. A child's 'evidence' based upon their evaluation of what took place will be used by the prosecution. The accused has a right to defend.
On the other hand, some have had aspersions cast on their character that has stuck even when proven innocent.
It is a very serious charge to bring against anyone with only a suspicion.
I will give you an example from my own family.
My husband is in his mid sixties and we often used to take our grandchildren to the park. If he saw a child having difficulty, his first response was to rush over to help them. The child's patents could have misinterpreted his intentions and accused him of touching their child inappropriately. He couldn't understand why we kept telling him he couldn't help a child when it was needed because others would think he was a child molester. He was horrified! But someone could have called the police and had him charged.
No decent person will condone or cover up child abuse, but at the same time, a fair trial should precede any action taken. The laws of God and the laws of the land demand that justice be carried out.....but not before due process.
In the meantime protecting the child from further abuse should be paramount.
I do not think parents just go around calling the police on men who have contact with their children. There have been cases where it is the child who has also report the abuse to the elders and the parents were discouraged from calling the police, talking about how rubbish "the world" is. The elder left because he knew it was dodgy, because he believed they weren't doing enough to protect the children. It's funny how the governing body can convince so many people to risk their lives and their children's lives by not accepting a blood transfusion but a simple thing as doing all that they can to help their children (I say their children because they have put themselves in such a position of authority) to report child abuse accusations to the police is so hard?
The victims have come out and said nothing was done, the victims have said they got more compassion from the police than the elders, which is sad since they are taught people in the world are so horrible.
Have you seen the panorama show with the Americans sisters and their dad was abusing them? The Jws in their congregation defended him in court, I wouldn't be surprised if the elders still visit him and bring him flowers in jail.
Just for the record I'm not out to get JWs, most of them are nice people just doing what they think is right, I know JWs. I have absolute disgust for abuse of power. And it makes we sick when women would rather dismiss the accusations by saying the child might be lying in order to defend their men than face reality. It's a man's world though right?
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
And look at the whole situation, not just the abuse but everything about being a JW we can see how devastating it is for the children.
A JW child who can not have friends outside the congregation. The only people they know are in the organisation.
They are told to go to the elders with any problem they have, they are turned away from the elders, they are afraid to go to the police because they have been taught how horrible the world is and that they can only trust God's organisation.
That is the reality for a lot of JW children and the reality is most children would not lie about being raped. So saying the child might be lying is just being in denial and avoiding the problem. The organisation has a pedophile problem, like other religious organisations, by continuing to deny it and not doing anything about it, and not even having the decency to make a public appology to the victims who have been wronged, you are only hurting your own children. But my niece is in there, MY NIECE, I cut her umbilical cord. So maybe you can understand why some of us are so concerned and would like the organisation to sort itself out.
A JW child who can not have friends outside the congregation. The only people they know are in the organisation.
They are told to go to the elders with any problem they have, they are turned away from the elders, they are afraid to go to the police because they have been taught how horrible the world is and that they can only trust God's organisation.
That is the reality for a lot of JW children and the reality is most children would not lie about being raped. So saying the child might be lying is just being in denial and avoiding the problem. The organisation has a pedophile problem, like other religious organisations, by continuing to deny it and not doing anything about it, and not even having the decency to make a public appology to the victims who have been wronged, you are only hurting your own children. But my niece is in there, MY NIECE, I cut her umbilical cord. So maybe you can understand why some of us are so concerned and would like the organisation to sort itself out.
Curious George
Veteran Member
I think that false accusations do occur, but reporting allegations is not akin to falsely convicting someone. Any and all allegations should be reported. If, after an investigation, the accusation turns out to be false then the elders should step in and counsel the congregation not to gossip or treat others poorly.
But the point is that there is reporting allegations is not the same as saying something did happen. It is alerting the proper authorities that allegations exist and starts an investigation. Others can try to spin reporting allegations into assumptions of guilt but that is not the case. I would expect that any person in a position of authority to report allegations to the correct channel so that an investigation can occur. Not doing so, speaks more towards "cover-up" than love and care.
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
Most of the time false accusations by a child do not occur. But yeah I'm not saying hunt the person down with pitch forks, I'm saying report it to the proper authorities who know how to deal with it, when you are knee deep and unqualified to handle a case you don't turn away a child, and keep it on the hush hush. How are the police suppose to do anything if they don't know about it?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
I wish that was true.
People are so paranoid these days, they can be questioned by police for taking photos of their own children in a park or at the beach if other children are present.
Teachers cannot physically comfort a child who is upset or injured because of the danger of being reported for child abuse. I don't know what its like where you live, but things here in Australia have become ridiculous!
I have no doubt that due to human imperfection, some cases have been handled badly in some congregations in the past, but the odd misjudgment is not indicative of the whole body of 8 million Witnesses today.
Attitudes have changed and people's sensibilities have also change, sometimes for the better and sometimes, more often than not, it always seems to go too far the other way. There never seems to be balance. But please be assured that no one condones child abuse in our congregations.
Whoa now...If you think blood transfusions are always "life saving" then you have not done any real research on blood transfusions.
Please just Google 'the dangers of blood transfusions' and think again.
Google 'bloodless surgery' while you're at it. The medical profession thank Jehovah's Witnesses for forcing them to find better alternatives to blood. It is not the "life saving" procedure it was once claimed to be. Any doctor worth his salt will not use it.
We are never taught that people in the world are horrible. We go out to these very people in our own time and using our own resources to bring the good news to them. We study the Bible with them and show them how they too can gain everlasting life.
Have you have been visiting anti-JW websites? Can you trust them to tell the truth? It is one side of a story that is presented. Usually one very distorted side.
Can a case be heard in a court of law with only one side of a case presented? Please don't be so quick to judge.
We do not associate or socialize with people who conduct themselves in a godless manner....we have nothing in common with them. But Witnesses have relatives and workmates and neighbors who are members of other churches. We do not shun them or treat them with disrespect. We don't believe that they are 'horrible' just because they are not Witnesses. We apply 1 Cor 15:33 on an individual basis.
An elder telling someone they 'cannot' do anything is not the same as saying they 'will not' do something, and this is interpreted as showing no compassion. If there is no evidence, their hands are tied. If the people concerned wish to report matters to police, they are fully within their rights to do so.
Everyone has a horror story. Does the odd case make the whole body guilty?
I'm sure every religion represented here will have many more such stories than JW's. We cannot keep 'sick' people out of our congregations any more than anyone else. But once they have been found guilty by the appropriate authorities, they will be dealt with in the appropriate way in the congregation. Only then can elders take action in a judicial capacity. "Evidence" must be presented.
And I heartily agree with this. No one is in a position of 'power' in the congregation...that is why elders are shepherds only. They guide and direct the flock; they do not "Lord it over those who are God's inheritance". (1 Pet 5:2, 3) They can make recommendations only, based solely on scripture; they are not to be swayed by personal opinion. This has been stressed many times over the years.
You must understand the sensibilities of some human beings.
When some women are confronted with the unthinkable, they are not capable of dealing with the reality of child abuse and denial is the only thing that protects their sanity. This is an inbuilt safety mechanism in some individuals. Denial is not something they do on purpose, it is the only thing that keeps their world from crumbling down around them. The ripples go on into places they simply cannot go. They are more to be pitied than blamed IMO. That is just the nature of some human beings. Those who can face reality and deal with it, cannot possibly know how it feels to lack that ability. I know this from personal experience. It is not really their fault, but a flaw in their nature. I have family members like this.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
How devestating it is for the children? Our children are protected from many hurtful things by being brought up with a knowledge of Bible standards. They are different from the world and sometimes they need to stand up for the truth. That takes courage in today's peer driven society.
That is not entirely true. Our children attend school and work like everyone else. They have friends at school and at work too.
The fact that 'worldly' friendships are not encouraged is because of what the world considers 'normal' behavior. We do not encourage sexual activity as a teenage right of passage before marriage; we do not condone weekend binge drinking or drug use such as occurs at dance parties and 'clubbing' that teens can do here in Australia at 18 years of age. We do not condone tatooing, which is so common among today's youth.
Let me also say that none of our children are forced to become Jehovah's Witnesses. When they reach an age where they are accountable to God for their own behavior, they will make their own choice to serve God or not. Some choose not to. There is nothing parents can do about that.
I have covered this point already.
This is not the normal response for the elders in a congregation. They would treat all accusations with the utmost care and seriousness.
But we have to remember that they are not the police. If there is nothing they can do, why expect them to do anything but offer comfort and scriptural counsel. That is their role after all.
It is the world that has a pedophile problem, compounded by easy access to child pornography sites. Our organization counsels about the dangers of these things on a regular basis. But admonition is only as good as the people who heed it. Human beings are flawed and they will continue to do the wrong things right up until judgment day.
We all just do the best we can under the circumstances. Elders are human like everyone else. If there was no evidence but a clear indication that molestation had taken place, all were free to bring their own charges against anyone they felt was molesting their children. Wouldn't you?
I have been a JW for over 40 years and I have seen many things happen in the congregations in my time.
But let me say this, there was never an instance where anyone was not given an opportunity to be forgiven and helped to stay on the road to life, no matter how bad their sin. Imperfection will not allow humans to do everything right. But God "remembers that we are dust" and only asks that we try our best to follow his word.
God is a forgiver if one is truly repentant, so we should not forget that aspect either, in our haste to condemn.
If you think there is any perfect organization on earth who are not battling the ramifications of human imperfection, then you must live somewhere in Disneyland. The first century Christians also had many problems due to humans making mistakes and ignoring God's counsel and their own conscience.
"There is nothing new under the sun" Solomon said. How true that is with regard to human behavior.
Human perfection will come in the new world, until then, life in this one is fraught with problems. We have to deal with them as best we can, with Jehovah's help.
Have I been put on ignore?
Maybe the gospel does not apply anymore?????
John 12:26
Luke 9:59
Mark 2:14
John 10:27
Matthew 9:9
Matthew 8:22
Luke 5:27
John 21:22
Matthew 10:38
John 1:43
John 21:19
Matthew 4:19
Oh right....Jesus was talking to living people.....