Will the real Islam please stand up

[J2hapydna]

You say the real Islam is the one before the ummayads,ok ill go along with the ummayads were the bad guys but what about the satanic verses?

First of all the suggestion that there were any Satanic verses is listed only in the Umayyad Sharia text. They are not in the Koran. So that just about kills the story.

In other words, if you are going with the real Islam before the Umayyads don't quote stuff from books that were written during and after the age of the Umayyads

 

[J2hapydna]

The claim he is in the song of Solomon is like he is the one in Mathew seems the same to me,no evidence,it seems desperate to make someone fit into another mythology.

After reading Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 we see that they suggest

A savior for the Egyptians will come (Isaiah 19:20) who will

1. unite Assyrians and Egyptians on the border of Egypt at an altar for the worship of the God of Abraham and unite them in performing sacrifices.

2. They will do it at a time when a plague is raging in Egypt, trees are dying , the canals dry up, and trade and agriculture become impossible in Egypt etc

3. They will do it after the sun goes dim, darkness falls upon the earth and temperatures drop

4. They will do it when Jews are driven from Israel

We know MP did all this at exactly such a time.

A. Do you know of anyone else in history who has done this?

B. Do you deny any of this happened in the days of MP?

 

[England my lionheart]

First of all the suggestion that there were any Satanic verses is listed only in the Umayyad Sharia text. They are not in the Koran. So that just about kills the story.

In other words, if you are going with the real Islam before the Umayyads don't quote stuff from books that were written during and after the age of the Umayyads

But wasn't the Koran written down long after MBs death,that suggests editing.

 

[England my lionheart]

After reading Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 we see that they suggest

A savior for the Egyptians will come (Isaiah 19:20) who will

1. unite Assyrians and Egyptians on the border of Egypt at an altar for the worship of the God of Abraham and unite them in performing sacrifices.

2. They will do it at a time when a plague is raging in Egypt, trees are dying , the canals dry up, and trade and agriculture become impossible in Egypt etc

3. They will do it after the sun goes dim, darkness falls upon the earth and temperatures drop

4. They will do it when Jews are driven from Israel

We know MP did all this at exactly such a time.

A. Do you know of anyone else in history who has done this?

B. Do you deny any of this happened in the days of MP?

Its interesting but no I don't buy it.

 

[England my lionheart]

I would say though that the satanic verses make sense,MB was having a bad time with the pagans so it could have been a way to placate the pagans.

 

[YmirGF]

The problem is that this is a vast topic that draws on many different areas of secular study. We are talking about changing an entire narrative of our understanding of history of the period based on secular scientific studies in the age that Islam was born. To go into depth would require creating several books that answer all the objections that Muslims, Christians and Jews could raise as well as secular historians. In other words, it requires responding to everything that Judaism, Christianity and Orthodox Islam has to say as well as exposing bunk in history as well as learning about the science of population genetics and archaeological discoveries that are touched upon by David Keys in Catastrophe and Hammer in population genetics and supporting materials by National Geo. and other works of credible research in these fields, not to mention opinions of scholars on the Dead Sea Scrolls. It isn't something that can be done in a quick 100 or 200 page study. It takes serious time to understand in depth each part of the evidence.

As one Christian moderator who is an expert in Islam on the Apologetics website put it, after 500 posts or so, "The bad news is that it takes longer than a few minutes for any other person to understand WXYZ's system" She also points out "The good news is that ... he has filtered out all the worst parts of classical Islam because he is a far better person than the wicked men portrayed in it."

So, this is going to take the concerted effort of many people I would imagine.

 

[J2hapydna]

But wasn't the Koran written down long after MBs death,that suggests editing.

The Koran was written sometime before 660 CE according to both Islamic and secular sources. Muawiya rose to power after that. The Hadith texts were written after Muawiya rose to power

 

[England my lionheart]

The Koran was written sometime before 660 CE according to both Islamic and secular sources. Muawiya rose to power after that. The Hadith texts were written after Muawiya rose to power

So the hadith texts are not true then,maybe a fault of oral tradition or manipulation and for followers of the sunnah maybe contentious but believable.

 

[J2hapydna]

So, this is going to take the concerted effort of many people I would imagine.

The basic idea

1. Quraysh is related to the Jews

2. The Kaba was used to worship God of Abraham but paganism crept in during the pre-Islamic period

3. MP established rituals that correspond to Jewish holidays; and MP removed the pagan idols from the Kaba

These facts are now already being passed along to the Islamic world in books and TV broadcasts. So yes there is a concerted effort by many people to make people aware of this. In fact these facts are now accepted by most knowledgeable people including Muslim and Jewish scholars.

Once people internalize 1,2,3, then it doesn't take much for people to see that the things described in Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 came true in the days of MP. After all the fact that the sky went dark, temperatures fell, crops and plants began to die, canals in Egypt and Yemen failed, trade began to fail, the famine and Plague was roaring and the Jews were driven out of Israel etc are all secular facts.

Once the significance of the above is understood, people can themselves ask why didn't the Umayyads record all this? So the basic story is not complicated.

What takes time is to explain all the details about the science and implications for the Umayyad Sharia (history) as well as the role of the Bible and how it connects to the Koran.

 

[J2hapydna]

Its interesting but no I don't buy it.

After reading Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 we see that they suggest

A savior for the Egyptians will come (Isaiah 19:20) who will

1. unite Assyrians and Egyptians on the border of Egypt at an altar for the worship of the God of Abraham and unite them in performing sacrifices.

2. They will do it at a time when a plague is raging in Egypt, trees are dying , the canals dry up, and trade and agriculture become impossible in Egypt etc

3. They will do it after the sun goes dim, darkness falls upon the earth and temperatures drop

4. They will do it when Jews are driven from Israel

We know MP did all this at exactly such a time.

A. Do you know of anyone else in history who has done this?

B. Do you deny any of this happened in the days of MP?

Do you not believe these things happened in the days of MP? There are both historical non Muslim accounts as well as secular scientific evidence that these things actually happened. So how can you not buy it?

 

[England my lionheart]

Do you not believe these things happened in the days of MP? There are both historical non Muslim accounts as well as secular scientific evidence that these things actually happened. So how can you not buy it?

None of it means its MP,to me its just basing the claim on one word "illiterate",when you read it all In context it doesn't mean its mp.

 

[Augustus]

1. Quraysh is related to the Jews

The problem with this is that Muhammad's people seemed to be on the Christian/Roman side of things in the Middle East.

Prior to the rise of Islam there had been religious conflicts in the peninsular between Himyarite Jews (allied with Persians) and Axumite Christians (allied with Romans).

In Islamic history, a group of companions fled to Axum which would be strange were they Jews.

While I am generally pretty sceptical of the Islamic historical narrative, I think there is a fair chance that this, to some extent at least, actual history. It doesn't seem to serve a theological purpose in the way that many other 'events' clearly do. The reasons why they went to Axum and what they were seeking refuge from is a very interesting question though as I'm less inclined to believe the traditional narrative regarding this.

3. MP established rituals that correspond to Jewish holidays; and MP removed the pagan idols from the Kaba

The Quran better reflects a Syriac Christian environment than a Jewish one though. Religious vocabulary reflects Syriac transmission rather than Hebrew for one thing.

Additionally:

In short, while there are Christian formulas in the Qur’ān, there are no clear Jewish formulas in it, and the same can be said about its apparently pro-Jewish formulas. Conversely, there are a considerable number of anti-Jewish polemical formulas (which cannot be read as intra-Jewish ones in contrast to many of the anti-Christian polemical formulas that can be interpreted as intra-Christian controversial formulas, on which see below), as well as a few anti-Jewish (and anti-Christian) supersessionist formulas in the Qur’ān.

Thus we have in the latter:
(a1) Christian formulas ✓;
(a2) Pro-Christian formulas ✓;
(a3) Anti-Christian (and/or intra-Christian) polemical formulas ✓; and
(a4) Anti-Christian supersessionist formulas ✓;
vs.
(b1) Jewish formulas ? ;
(b2) Pro-Jewish formulas ? ;
(b3) Anti-Jewish polemical formulas ✓; and
(b4) Anti-Jewish supersessionist formulas ✓.

Also, when one looks into the biblical material in the Qur’ān – by biblical I mean here relative to the Hebrew Bible alone – one gets the overall impression that this material is generally read through a Christian lens; in fact, its knowledge is often mediated through other, basically Syriac-Christian, texts (e.g. the Joseph story in Q 12, as convincingly shown by Witztum 2011).
(A Messianic Controversy Behind the Making of Muḥammad as the Last Prophet?)

 

[J2hapydna]

The problem with this is that Muhammad's people seemed to be on the Christian/Roman side of things in the Middle East.

Prior to the rise of Islam there had been religious conflicts in the peninsular between Himyarite Jews (allied with Persians) and Axumite Christians (allied with Romans).

In Islamic history, a group of companions fled to Axum which would be strange were they Jews.

I meant the Arabs had ancestral cultural and religious links to Jews as descendants of Abraham.

I was referring to Y DNA studies suggesting Arabs / Quraysh and Cohanim shared a recent common paternal ancestor who lived approx. 2 to 4 k ybp. So genetically Jews and Arabs are more closely related than for example, Europeans v. Mayans / native Americans. I'm bringing this up because, in the past, orientalists have suggested that Jews and Arabs were genetically, culturally and religiously completely unrelated people so Allah and YHWH are unrelated too

 

[YmirGF]

2. The Kaba was used to worship God of Abraham but paganism crept in during the pre-Islamic period.

While I am well aware that Muslim 'scholars' make this claim there does not seem to be a shred of evidence to support the claim.

 

[Augustus]

I meant the Arabs had ancestral cultural and religious links to Jews as descendants of Abraham.

I was referring to Y DNA studies suggesting Arabs / Quraysh and Cohanim shared a recent common paternal ancestor who lived approx. 2 to 4 k ybp. So genetically Jews and Arabs are more closely related than for example, Europeans v. Mayans / native Americans. I'm bringing this up because, in the past, orientalists have suggested that Jews and Arabs were genetically, culturally and religiously completely unrelated people so Allah and YHWH are unrelated too

ME Jews appear to be more closely related to Armenians and Cypriots than they do Hijazi Arabs.

 

[J2hapydna]

None of it means its MP,to me its just basing the claim on one word "illiterate",when you read it all In context it doesn't mean its mp.

The Bible is predicting what will happen. If MP is the only one who has done it in history then it would be illogical to say it means nothing. Now , you have the right to be illogical, but I'm not sure how well that would serve one in a real debate

 

[England my lionheart]

The Bible is predicting what will happen. If MP is the only one who has done it in history then it would be illogical to say it means nothing. Now , you have the right to be illogical, but I'm not sure how well that would serve one in a real debate

Well considering I think the bible is as much mumbo jumbo as your Koran it doesn't really matter.

 

[J2hapydna]

ME Jews appear to be more closely related to Armenians and Cypriots than they do Hijazi Arabs.

Can you please shed light on what is being compared?

The Jewish nation over the years has taken in some converts from surrounding nations. To compare the Y DNA signature of ancient Israelites to non Israelite nations we need to compare these nations to the common Y- DNA signature of Oriental, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Kohanim populations

After all, anyone can convert to Judaism, but converts cannot join the Cohanim population. These being Jews who claim father to son patrilineal descent from Aaron- a descendant of Abraham

 

[England my lionheart]

I can't remember the guy before zakir naik but both have promoted this idea that mb is mentioned here and there,big claims require big evidence but heybe happy with your faith.

 

[J2hapydna]

Well considering I think the bible is as much mumbo jumbo as your Koran it doesn't really matter.

Let us assume it is mumbo jumbo. Are you saying this mumbo jumbo was written after 6th CE?

We have Dead Sea Scrolls and many other OT texts that predate the 6th century. Or do you disagree with even this?

So if thos book of Mumbo Jumbo has a chapter describing a string of once in an eternity set of complex events, that actually happen. Then that wouldn't be significant to you? Are you not going to wonder who told Isaiah all this would happen?