Augustus
…
Here is the paper it is from:
Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Will the real Islam please stand up
- Thread starter England my lionheart
- Start date
Here is the paper it is from:
Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture
Can I ask about your personal religious beliefs for a second? Is this just an academic interest of yours or are you personally and emotionally invested in the outcomes of this discussion too? I can tell that you are a well read, intelligent and articulate person. Thanks
Last edited:
I noticed Augustus was of the same opinion. You do know we perform similar prayer rituals and celebrate similar religious holidays right?
Are there particular Islamic rituals or or holidays that make you think we aren't similar?
I will try to gather some info for you guys. Do you know much about Jewish religious holidays?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Being a so-called strong atheist, I can safely say that I do not celebrate similar religious holidays and prayer rituals with Muslims.
That said, I don't see how that would lend support to the idea that the Kabbah was originally an Abrahamic shrine.By we, you know I meant Muslims and Jews, right?Being a so-called strong atheist, I can safely say that I do not celebrate similar religious holidays and prayer rituals with Muslims.
Last edited:
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
That was a given, I just didn't want you to get the impression that I supported the notion.
Ok theres a lot of problems with mb being in isiah,first off,"who told isiah all this would happen",now if it was a omnificent omnipresent god one would expect him to tell isiah mbs name.
In isiah 29 the scroll is offered to one who can read but says "I cannot read because its sealed",the scroll is then offered to a other who says "I cannot read",from reading isiah it doesn't make me think of mb at all so its just like the song of Solomon,putting something what you want it to mean rather than what it does.
Augustus
…
Just interested in history.
I'm not religious and start with the axiom that historical events don't have Divine causes though.
Which of these happened?
1. Arguably post conquest, but that was after Muhammad's time.
2. There was plague in the Byzantine Empire in the time of Justinian but this might have been pretty much over by Muhammad's time. Not sure trade and agriculture were impossible though, just significantly impaired. Did the canals and the sea dry up too?
3. Ok. There are some arguments regarding climate issues.
4. Ok. after the retaking of Jerusalem many Jews were seen as pro-Persian
The text also refers to Pharaoh, whie at the time of Muhammad Egypt was ruled by a Prefect on behalf of the Emperor.
In the 7th C, it is very possible that Christian rituals were also very similar for many sects. Some early mihrabs are found in Christian Churches. The Dome of the Rock also seems to be based on the Church of the Kathisma of Mary Theotokos (see).
One very strange piece of evidence is this inscription:
- In the days of the servant of God Muʿāwiya (abdalla Maavia), the commander
- of the faithful (amēra almoumenēn) the hot baths of the
- people there were saved and rebuilt
- by ʿAbd Allāh son of Abū Hāshim (Abouasemou), the
- governor, on the fifth of the month of December,
- on the second day (of the week), in the 6th year of the indiction,
- in the year 726 of the colony, according to the Arabs (kata Arabas) the 42nd year,
- for the healing of the sick, under the care of Ioannes,
- the official of Gadara.
(I'd really like to know more about this inscription as a lowly stonemason surely couldn't have put a cross there on his own initiative)
"But outside the Qurʾān, the word Islam, as a name of the religion, appears for the first time on the tombstone of a woman named ʿAbbāsa dated 71AH/ 691 CE.3 There, the Believers are called ahl al-islām. The first definitely datable evidence of the usage of the word muslimūn, in the sense of adherents of Islam, is from 123 Ah / 741 Ce,4 although it was probably used widely even before that.5 Thus, the change from a “community of Believers to [a] community of Muslims”6 was a rather slow one, at least appellation-wise. Islam seems to have been a distinct religion from early on, but it took some decades, if not more, for its characteristics to become shaped."
(Muhājirūn as a Name for the First/ Seventh Century Muslims - Illka Lindstedt)
If Isaiah had given a name like Joe, everyone would name their sons Joe. That would be like saying the messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. Hell, didn't everyone ride into Jerusalem on a donkey? So what would be so great about a prophecy that says Joe would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey?
Honestly I'm not getting you
what I am looking for are prophecies about things that don't happen very frequently. It would be best if the prophecy says three or four improbable things would happen that don't happen frequently. Then the chances of them happening together become exponentially very small. At which point, if they happen it is a miracle. For example the described in Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 have only happened once since the time of Jesus. In reality, the chances of all those things happening are actually close to zero. So the fact that it happened at all in the last 2,000 years is actually mind blowing. For it to happen in a way that we could prove it with science is unfathomable.
Last edited:
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Just a side note: This is you 666th post on RF. How beastly is that?
That would be like saying Moses didn't bring the Israelites to the Promised Land. We know who organized and established the faith so the conquest could happen.
Actually, it started around 540. It didn't ease up for over a hundred years. By the time MP came on the scene it was raging. The fear among the people was at it's height because the Plague was unrelenting in its ability to keep coming back and killing those who may have survived an earlier outbreak.
Trajans canal had failed in the 6th century. It was reopened after the Arab conquest. It was the precursor to the Suez Canal.
In addition, Marib Dam failed that caused irrigation canals and the agricultural system to fail. This led to massive starvation and massive population displacements. Also at that time, photosynthesis would have slowed as sunlight was blocked. So plant life would be dying, even if there was water. To top it off the Plague was raging. Humanity literally would have appeared to be teetering at the edge of extinction when MP appeared. The savagery that such desperation and hopelessness would have generated is hard to imagine
Your point?
Isaiah is asking the wise men of the Pharoahs in his age to make a prediction about the future. He is taunting then that only his true god can make such complex and impossible to know prophecies about the future. Please see v.12
I was referring to the fact that pre-Islamic Arabs used to perform Hajj on the same day that Jews mourn the destruction of the temple by the Romans. In fact the Arabs considered this to be the most sacred month of the year.
Last edited:
Just a side note: This is you 666th post on RF. How beastly is that?
I just posted 667. This is 668, I feel like am born again
As far as I can tell, this paper is essentially comparing closeness between populations based on the percentage mix of pre LGM ancestors from Africa, Middle East and Europe / Central Asia. This is why it is talking about sharing common ancestors who lived 10k or 20k or more thousand years ago.
We are interested in populations in which a significant percentage of people share a most recent common paternal ancestor with Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Oriental Cohens (an ancestor that lived less than 5000 years ago). This would take us back to Abraham or perhaps Aaron. If we we go much further than that we are not really looking for people who are very closely related to the Israelites
So for example, take the SNP ZS227. See link. It is found among Cohens in the Ashkenazi population. So it is a young SNP that arose among the Cohens who went to East Europe. If it had been older, from the first temple period, we would have found it among Oriental and Sephardi Jews too. So we can move higher up on the Cohen SNP tree where we find SNP Z2331. It is more common among Cohanim in all regions of the world. So it is probably closer to being the common ancestor of Cohens in the time of Aaron. In other word if one broke away from the SNP chain above Z2331 then one could possibly be a descendant of Abraham's ancestors. However, between Z2331 and ZS227 it is likely Abrahamic / Aaronite ancestry
http://jewishdna.net/J1-ZS227.html
Last edited:
I know what your looking for and kudos for calling on science for help.
The problem I see starts with the Quran verses saying mp is in the bible,seeing as the Quran came after isiah there is lots of scope for some editing.
From what the Quran says it should be easy to find mp in the torah and bible but here we see its actually not,when read in context like isiah theres no reason to believe mp is mentioned at all,this is common in religion,ignoring what is actually written and filling it with what you want it to mean.
Got a slight phone in pocket problem lol
I don't understand what you mean.
The Bible describes a time that has only come true once in history. We can scientifically prove that those extremely rare things actually happened. Yet apparently you are still wondering when they will happen. Or did I not understand you?
I think a misunderstanding,even if these things happened how does it relate to mb in isiah and Mathew?,
Isaiah 19:20 says the one who will do this is the great savior. Matt 24 describes him as the son of man.
Let me put it this way, let's say I'm a good friend of yours. I'm rich and I write you a letter saying that sometime next week, there will be a moment when a Rolls Royce, a Bentley, a Ferrari and a Lamborghini will be parked in front of your house. Then a man smoking a pipe with 5 Chinese men and 5 African women will walk to your home and leave a package at the front door. Then, if you take the package and keep it inside your house, I will give you $100 million.
Let's say you have a home security video camera that has recorded the 5 cars parked infront of your house and the man with the pipe and the 5 men and women leaving the package at your door.
Now tell me, are you going to kick the package and throw it in the garbage because I didn't tell you the name of the the guy with the pipe? Honestly that sounds like a really lame excuse to me.
In fact, i would ask you how many times in your life have those four cars been ever parked outside your house when a man smoking a pipe who had 10 such men and women with him drop a package off in front of your house? You say never, but then you say you threw it away because I didn't tell you his name!
This is what you are saying. Do you think I would or any reasonable person would give you a $100 million if you did that?
Last edited:
Muhammed wasn't the only person claiming to be a prophet during mps time,muailama al kazza ,sad son of sayyad,tulayha son of khwaira.
I cant see any of those in isiah either,everything is so vague and unclear in these claims.
The rest of them didn't join the Egyptians and Assyrians. In other words they didn't bring the 10 Chinese and African men and women. They also weren't smoking a pipe or leave a package. (MP shows them how to perform sacrifices at the altar in Mecca as well as leaves a Koran).
Isaiah 19 is one of the least ambiguous chapters in the Bible one can read. The prophecy begins in v.16. It says in that day ....
The chapter ends on v. 24. A total of 9 very clear verses of prophesies about the coming of the great savior.
Last edited: