Witchcraft in Judaism

[dybmh]

Ha! You wanna load up on ammunition, eh?

Here's the thing... you're not wrong about the Tzaddik. But the Tzaddik that you are talking about is coming from a specific POV.. if I understand. So what I want to do, is find sources from that POV, and then share them.

Along the way, I may offer some alternative points of view simply for comparison. But basically I'm looking for the tastiest tidbits that are compatible with your current approach to the concept of a Tzaddik. That may take a few days. And as I bonus, I'm less likely to talk out of my rear-end.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches that wielded the dark forces (that woman from Ein-Dor aka the witch of Endor, stories from the gemara, etc), and I get that there are dark forces in the world (discussed well by the Ramchal in Derech Hashem) - but how did people originally figure out how to use these dark forces? How did they figure out the techniques, spells(?), etc? Were they just mumbling gibberish all day and seeing what worked?
I mean, were Adam and Eve created with witchcraft knowledge inserted into their minds? Even if so, after having sinned in the Garden, why pass that knowledge on?

Kind of a weird question...

Well there are a lot of other questions that MUST be asked along with it, or you have no context.
1. Does magick actually work?
2. If magick works, is it a natural thing, like science (like are potions the same as medicines) or is it supernatural, a la demons or something?
3. Is sorcery forbidden because it consorts with demons, or because it consorts with con artists and breeds superstition?
4. Could the witches in the Torah simply be referring to women who practiced pagan idolatry practices?

 

[Harel13]

Well there are a lot of other questions that MUST be asked along with it, or you have no context.
1. Does magick actually work?
2. If magick works, is it a natural thing, like science (like are potions the same as medicines) or is it supernatural, a la demons or something?
3. Is sorcery forbidden because it consorts with demons, or because it consorts with con artists and breeds superstition?
4. Could the witches in the Torah simply be referring to women who practiced pagan idolatry practices?

1. This was my assumption based on what the Ramchal (Rabbi Moshe Luzzatto) writes in Derech Hashem, where he has a chapter dedicated to usage of "names" and Kishuf (witchcraft/sorcery).
2. Does it matter?
3. Depends if you think there actually is magic to be done in the world. If yes, then the problem is consorting with darkness and strengthening its hold on the world. If no, then as @Tumah pointed out, the problem appears to be that it leads to idolatry. And if the only problem was dealing in trickery - why would it be a problem to do it just for yourself, at home?
4. @Tumah pointed out that sorcery leads to idolatry. I don't know if it's regarded as idolatry in itself and whether such a sinner is described as doing two sins - witchcraft and idolatry or not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1. This was my assumption based on what the Ramchal (Rabbi Moshe Luzzatto) writes in Derech Hashem, where he has a chapter dedicated to usage of "names" and Kishuf (witchcraft/sorcery).
2. Does it matter?
3. Depends if you think there actually is magic to be done in the world. If yes, then the problem is consorting with darkness and strengthening its hold on the world. If no, then as @Tumah pointed out, the problem appears to be that it leads to idolatry. And if the only problem was dealing in trickery - why would it be a problem to do it just for yourself, at home?
4. @Tumah pointed out that sorcery leads to idolatry. I don't know if it's regarded as idolatry in itself and whether such a sinner is described as doing two sins - witchcraft and idolatry or not.

1. As to whether magick really works... Science has inquired into this question and has determined that no it does not. If the person upon which a spell is said knows of it, the spell has no greater impact than the power of suggestion, aka a placebo effect. If the person upon whom the spell is cast has no knowledge of it at all,there is no effect at all other than simple random chance, statistically speaking.

2. I would say it matters a great deal whether magick is a natural sort of thing or whether it is consorting with supernatural elements. If it is merely using one's natural gifts, then it is essentially no different than a God-given skill, just like intelligence or intuition or empathy. That's quite different than i.e. going and making a deal with Baal for unearthly knowledge and power.

3. Don't get me wrong. I'm asking these questions because I have these questions. I think perhaps they may have more than one answer. Certainly many, many people are duped out of their life savings by unscrupulous con artists who merely pretend to have powers. It is at least one very good reason to avoid fortune tellers, etc.

4. I also don't recommend sorcery. I think it can lead to a great many bad things, not just idolatry. It seems to promise an unusual amount of power, to make you a very special and unusual person. That would appeal to those who are disenfranchised and devalued, promising them that they will really be someone. The problem is, that this sort of thing is psychologically and spiritually corrupting to the core. It begins as a little rot of conceit in the center of the heart, that just spreads over time.

 

[Harel13]

has determined that no it does not. If the person upon which a spell is said knows of it, the spell has no greater impact than the power of suggestion, aka a placebo effect. If the person upon whom the spell is cast has no knowledge of it at all,there is no effect at all other than simple random chance, statistically speaking

My personal opinion on the matter is that real sorcery, as described in Jewish sources, doesn't exist nowadays. Similarly, in halacha, one of the reasons for washing your hands in the morning is because of "ruach ra'ah" (=evil spirit) may have caused your hands to become impure during the night. The Mishna Berura (I think) says that this reason isn't relevant nowadays because there no longer is ruach ra'ah. Not that there never was, but that nowadays there isn't. The world has changed, even in spiritual ways, over the millennia.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My personal opinion on the matter is that real sorcery, as described in Jewish sources, doesn't exist nowadays. Similarly, in halacha, one of the reasons for washing your hands in the morning is because of "ruach ra'ah" (=evil spirit) may have caused your hands to become impure during the night. The Mishna Berura (I think) says that this reason isn't relevant nowadays because there no longer is ruach ra'ah. Not that there never was, but that nowadays there isn't. The world has changed, even in spiritual ways, over the millennia.

I find this idea interesting. I don't really believe the basic laws governing the natural and supernatural ever change, although I do think the way we experience the world certainly can go through incredible metamorphoses. As to my own personal opinions on witchcraft, I tend to be a skeptic, but I am still open. Just because what we normally call witchcraft is harmless superstition doesn't mean the real thing doesn't exist out there in some way shape size or form, albeit too rare to show up statistically. What may be, in concession to your point, is that as worldviews have shifted, the practice of genuine witchcraft has simply died a natural death. After all, people don't go around sacrificing virgins and babies anymore either.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As to my own personal opinions on witchcraft, I tend to be a skeptic, but I am still open. Just because what we normally call witchcraft is harmless superstition doesn't mean the real thing doesn't exist out there in some way shape size or form, albeit too rare to show up statistically.

How might such a soft (?) skepticism concerning witchcraft differ from skepticism concerning magic unicorns or the aos sí ?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How might such a soft (?) skepticism concerning witchcraft differ from skepticism concerning magic unicorns or the aos sí ?

I think both are pretty much disproven by science. However, science always leaves room for change should new information come to light. I sincerely doubt that we will ever find a unicorn skull, but there is always that chance, and if we do, it will modify what science has to say.

Although science cannot find spells that work in a productive way, it HAS found that people can do so in an unproductive way, but one that is still statistically significant. I'm referring to remote viewing aka skrying (sp?). The CIA did studies into this with the hope that it could be used for intelligence gathering. It ended its studies when it found that, although the success rate was certainly better than random, it was nevertheless too low for productive use.

I guess I'm saying that if "scrying" is a real gift for some people, perhaps other psychic abilities may be out there in some form as well, although perhaps on a spectrum, or quite rare? I really don't know. I'm just throwing out possible ideas. And I'm swinging towards the idea that it's a more natural sort of thing since there didn't seem to be any evidence in the remote viewing that any demonology was involved.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Although science cannot find spells that work in a productive way, it HAS found that people can do so in an unproductive way, but one that is still statistically significant.

See Wiki: Scrying: Scientific reception ... Perhaps they were not "read in" by the CIA.

 

[dybmh]

This was my assumption based on what the Ramchal (Rabbi Moshe Luzzatto) writes in Derech Hashem, where he has a chapter dedicated to usage of "names" and Kishuf (witchcraft/sorcery).

With all due respect, had I known this, I might have offered a more detailed answer from the beginning... But that said, i still stand by what I said... I'm guessing they can be traced back the the 32 paths and sanctification of the names... both are **literally** Torah.

Do you want to me to research it?

 

[dybmh]

How might such a soft (?) skepticism concerning witchcraft differ from skepticism concerning magic unicorns or the aos sí ?

Because the Siddur has mystical elements in it that cannot be denied...

However, if you're looking for evidence of unicorns... you need photoshop.

 

[Harel13]

I'm guessing they can be traced back the the 32 paths and sanctification of the names... both are **literally** Torah

What are these 32 paths? Not sure I've ever heard of them.

 

[dybmh]

@Harel13

I have an english translation of Derech HaShem, if you ever want to discuss it more BTW....

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13

I have an english translation of Derech HaShem, if you ever want to discuss it more BTW....

Ramchal mentions 32 paths in Derech Hashem? I don't remember that...

 

[dybmh]

What are these 32 paths? Not sure I've ever heard of them.

It's from sefer yetzirah... I think they are called 32 paths of wisdom. they are technically the 22 letters plus the base 10 numeric system that is attached to it. 22+10 are called the 32 paths... of wisdom ( i think ) it's pretty early in sefer yetzirah...

So basically, when I said the 32 paths... I'm talking about the very very very beginning of the mystical approach to the Hebrew language and gematria. Like the great-great-great-grandfather of all that. And if i remember, there's a story that Adam wrote sefer Yetzirah. It was needed to name things. Adam needed the alphabet. And numbers.

 

[dybmh]

Ramchal mentions 32 paths in Derech Hashem? I don't remember that...

No. I didn't mean that at all... I wasn't answering that post... keep scrolling...

 

[dybmh]

Ramchal mentions 32 paths in Derech Hashem? I don't remember that...

Where are you looking in Derech Hashem? just so I know what names and witchcraft we're talking about?

edit: 3:2:9... oh dear, maybe you already said that... if so sorry...

 

[Harel13]

Where are you looking in Derech Hashem? just so I know what names and witchcraft we're talking about?

edit: 3:2:9... oh dear, maybe you already said that... if so sorry...

There's a chapter in part 3, don't remember what no. ch. Something about usage of names and witchcraft/sorcery.

 

[dybmh]

There's a chapter in part 3, don't remember what no. ch. Something about usage of names and witchcraft/sorcery.

OK, I just read the english. I can answer your question now... hang on. I'm typing it out.

 

[dybmh]

Derech HaShem 3:2:9 in the english is titled: Sorcery .

I'm sorry. I didn't pick up on the Ramchal reference in the OP.

OK. That's specific. That's a specific type of sorcery. The idea is that divine names are divine. Angels are holy and can do super-natural things. divine names have a purpose, mission, so to speak, that's why G-d created them in the first place. Same thing with Angels. They are on a vector. They have mission.

Sorcery as the Ramchal describes it is the **attempt** to redirect these divine vectors. For divine names it's easy to imagine misusing them for personal gain. But the other examples in 3:2:9, are hard to imagine.

Think of it like a water wheel. The water is coming down the hill.... those are the angels on their mission. Sorcery is an **attempt** to put a water wheel in the middle in order to some sort of work.

But it's totally not kosher.