With bafflement upon bafflement!

[dybmh]

I accept that Torah Jews recite the Shema and claim to worship one God, and serve him alone. But if God has sent his own Son, and Jews reject that Son, then effectively they become idolatrous. Why? Because they now turn the salvation of God into a man. It is no longer Christ the Saviour, but Christ the man. How can you serve Christ the man, and claim him as your king?

This needs a lot more explanation. I think you're being brief, but skipping some important details. Based solely on this ^^ as long as Jewish people don't serve "Christ the man" or claim "Christ the man" as king then the problem you're describing is prevented. See what I mean? So I think this needs more to be understandable.

Thus your statement encourages rejection of Christ the man, but that doesn't show how a different rejection of "God's son" is idol worship.

When you read Psalm 110:1, who is it that sits at the right hand of God?

If you say to me, lt's Abraham, then l'll say to you, You're committing idolatry! You're making a man to sit upon the throne of God.

If you say, Ok, it's the Messiah; then l'll say to you, The Messiah is, therefore, both human and divine, because you cannot have a mediator 'of one'. A mediator must represent both God and man.

David, who wrote the Psalm, knew that he had a 'Lord', Christ, and a 'LORD', God in heaven (the Father).

This one is pretty easy. Where is the word 'throne' in the psalm? Without that there is no problem.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This needs a lot more explanation. I think you're being brief, but skipping some important details. Based solely on this ^^ as long as Jewish people don't serve "Christ the man" or claim "Christ the man" as king then the problem you're describing is prevented. See what I mean? So I think this needs more to be understandable.

Thus your statement encourages rejection of Christ the man, but that doesn't show how a different rejection of "God's son" is idol worship.

This one is pretty easy. Where is the word 'throne' in the psalm? Without that there is no problem.

We know from Psalms 11:4 that the LORD's throne is in heaven.

We know from Psalms 47:8 that God sits upon the throne in heaven.

In lsaiah 6:1, the prophet saw the LORD sitting upon a throne in heaven.

Isaiah 66:1. 'The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:'

From this, l understand that God is in heaven, seated upon His throne. In Psalm 110:1 we are told that the LORD says to 'my Lord', 'Sit thou at my right hand, until l make thine enemies thy footstool'. This cannot be said anywhere but in heaven, at the throne of God.

In Psalms 110:2, the rod is sent out of Zion. Now, from lsaiah 11:1, we know that the rod out of the stem of Jesse has the Spirit of God resting upon him. Is this not the same rod that is sent to rule in the midst of 'thine enemies' (ie on earth)? Is this not the Messiah, son of David?

 

[Redemptionsong]

This needs a lot more explanation. I think you're being brief, but skipping some important details. Based solely on this ^^ as long as Jewish people don't serve "Christ the man" or claim "Christ the man" as king then the problem you're describing is prevented. See what I mean? So I think this needs more to be understandable.

Thus your statement encourages rejection of Christ the man, but that doesn't show how a different rejection of "God's son" is idol worship.

This one is pretty easy. Where is the word 'throne' in the psalm? Without that there is no problem.

You say that my statement encourages rejection of Christ the man, but one has to be careful here. The Christ, or Word of God, is sent to dwell amongst men on earth. This makes Christ, whilst on earth, a mediator. This means Christ must be fully man and fully God whilst on earth.

Can a man be fully God? Only if he is without sin, and perfectly holy. And, for this to happen, he cannot be born of a man, because the sins of a man can be passed down to the third and fourth generations. He must be born of a virgin, and live sinlessly. Only then can he be an acceptable offering for sin, or 'the Lamb of God'.

 

[dybmh]

We know from Psalms 11:4 that the LORD's throne is in heaven.

We know from Psalms 47:8 that God sits upon the throne in heaven.

In lsaiah 6:1, the prophet saw the LORD sitting upon a throne in heaven.

Isaiah 66:1. 'The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:'

From this, l understand that God is in heaven, seated upon His throne. In Psalm 110:1 we are told that the LORD says to 'my Lord', 'Sit thou at my right hand, until l make thine enemies thy footstool'. This cannot be said anywhere but in heaven, at the throne of God.

But no one in the psalm is sitting on the throne. The best that can be said is that someone was invited to sit, but no one did it.No throne sitting, no crime. Case dismissed.

In Psalms 110:2, the rod is sent out of Zion. Now, from lsaiah 11:1, we know that the rod out of the stem of Jesse has the Spirit of God resting upon him.

Sorry, that's a scriptural mismatch. Psalms 110:2 uses מַטֵּ֚ה; Isaiah 11:1 uses יָצָ֥א. If the scripture was intended to connect these two verses they would be using the same word.

Is this not the same rod that is sent to rule in the midst of 'thine enemies' (ie on earth)?

Because the psalms are poetry, it's a maybe. Either way, no one is sitting on a throne. That's imagined.

Is this not the Messiah, son of David?

Verse 4 refutes that it was Jesus. When did Jesus get blessed by Malchitzedek? Please reply with scripture.

 

[dybmh]

You say that my statement encourages rejection of Christ the man, but one has to be careful here. The Christ, or Word of God, is sent to dwell amongst men on earth. This makes Christ, whilst on earth, a mediator. This means Christ must be fully man and fully God whilst on earth.

Yes, what you said encourages rejection of Christ the man. You said serving Christ the man and claiming Christ the man as king was idol worship. If that's not what you meant, totally fine. It's a complicated subject. maybe it will take two or three attempts before it's clear.

You still haven't explained how rejection of "God's son" is idol worship. If you want to call it Christian heresy, we can agree. But calling it idol worship is still not understandable. It's kind of like calling an atheist and idol worshipper. A rejection isn't worship

Can a man be fully God? Only if he is without sin, and perfectly holy. And, for this to happen, he cannot be born of a man, because the sins of a man can be passed down to the third and fourth generations. He must be born of a virgin, and live sinlessly. Only then can he be an acceptable offering for sin, or 'the Lamb of God'.

Can a man be fully God? No. Even if he is without sin? No. Still can't be God. ( Numbers 23:19 )
The lamb of God is a concept uneeded for Jewish people who repent and adhere to the Torah. ( Psalms 51 and Psalms 119 ).

Do you have any scriptural support which *requires* a lamb of God or that the Messiah needs to be sinless?

 

[Redemptionsong]

But no one in the psalm is sitting on the throne. The best that can be said is that someone was invited to sit, but no one did it.No throne sitting, no crime. Case dismissed.

Not so fast.

In verse 5 it says, 'The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath'. So, whilst the invitation to sit at the right hand of the LORD is made in verse 1, the confirmation that the Lord is at the right hand of the LORD, comes in verse 5.

If you look at Isaiah 61;1,2, which I believe is a prophetic announcement by the Anointed Messiah (the Suffering Servant, not yet crowned king), you will see that the person speaking is called upon to 'proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;' The 'acceptable year' is a time when slaves are set free, but the 'day of vengeance' is a day of judgement.

Back to Psalm 110:5. 'The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.'
I ask, Who is it that is given authority to strike through kings in the day of God's wrath? Is it not the Messiah? Is it not the Redeemer of Israel?

Then, we could look to Zechariah. In Zechariah 14:4, the LORD fights against the nations, 'And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives..' Verse 5, 'and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee'. Verse 9, 'And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one'. Verse 16, 'And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles'.

Why keep the feast of Tabernacles? Is this not the festival that celebrates the tabernacle of God appearing amongst his people?

Revelation 21:3. 'And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God'.

 

[dybmh]

In verse 5 it says, 'The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath'. So, whilst the invitation to sit at the right hand of the LORD is made in verse 1, the confirmation that the Lord is at the right hand of the LORD, comes in verse 5.

Still not sitting. No crime here Just at the right hand. God hasn't moved... And that ignores whether Jesus crushed/crushes/will crush any kings. So again, even if you're right that this is a messianic psalm... can it really be Jesus? At best it's unknown till the future.

Back to Psalm 110:5. 'The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.'
I ask, Who is it that is given authority to strike through kings in the day of God's wrath? Is it not the Messiah? Is it not the Redeemer of Israel?

If the psalm is read hyper-literally ( which is what you're doing ), then it can't be ignored that the tense on translation you're using is dodgy. Take a look at psalms 68:21. "shall strike" is "יִמְחַץ֮" "strikes/or has struck" is "מָחַ֖ץ". The first letter 'yud' makes the difference and shifts it to future. I can't find a good Jewish source for this, but I found a Christian one: Hebrew Qal Imperfect with Strong Verbs

So, in order for this verse to be about Jesus, he needs to have striken or currently is striking kings.

But if it's the past tense, it's easy: The story is written in Genesis 14, Abraham crushes the Kings to save Lot. And Abraham is called "אֲדֹנִ֗י" in Genesis 23:6; that's the same word in Psalm 110:1. See below:

Gen 23:6

שְׁמָעֵ֣נוּ ׀ אֲדֹנִ֗י נְשִׂ֨יא אֱלֹהִ֤ים אַתָּה֙ בְּתוֹכֵ֔נוּ בְּמִבְחַ֣ר קְבָרֵ֔ינוּ קְבֹ֖ר אֶת־מֵתֶ֑ךָ אִ֣ישׁ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ אֶת־קִבְר֛וֹ לֹֽא־יִכְלֶ֥ה מִמְּךָ֖ מִקְּבֹ֥ר מֵתֶֽךָ׃

“Hear us, my lord: you are the elect of God among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our burial places; none of us will withhold his burial place from you for burying your dead.”​

Psalm 110:1

לְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֤ם יְהֹוָ֨ה ׀ לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹ֝יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃

Of David. A psalm.

The LORD said to my lord,
“Sit at My right hand
while I make your enemies your footstool.”
​

And that's how to do a scriptural substitution. It needs to be the same word used in both verses.

So, we have two good reasons that the "my lord" in this psalm is Abraham (verse 1 and verse 5). and we have two good reasons why it can't be Jesus ( verse 4 and 5 ). And there's still not any reasons why understanding the subject as Abraham results in idol worship as you claimed.

 

[dybmh]

If you look at Isaiah 61;1,2, which I believe is a prophetic announcement by the Anointed Messiah (the Suffering Servant, not yet crowned king), you will see that the person speaking is called upon to 'proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;' The 'acceptable year' is a time when slaves are set free, but the 'day of vengeance' is a day of judgement.

This is changing the subject a bit. There's nothing in 61:1-2 which identify the speaker as anyone other than Isaiah speaking about himself.

 

[dybmh]

Then, we could look to Zechariah. In Zechariah 14:4, the LORD fights against the nations, 'And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives..' Verse 5, 'and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee'. Verse 9, 'And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one'. Verse 16, 'And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles'.

Why keep the feast of Tabernacles? Is this not the festival that celebrates the tabernacle of God appearing amongst his people?

Ummmm, no. the Feast of Tabernacles would be sukkot.

Zech 14:16

טז וְהָיָ֗ה כָּל־הַנּוֹתָר֙ מִכָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֔ם הַבָּאִ֖ים עַל־יְרֽוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְעָל֞וּ מִדֵּ֧י שָׁנָ֣ה בְשָׁנָ֗ה לְהִֽשְׁתַּחֲו‍ֹת֙ לְמֶ֙לֶךְ֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֔וֹת וְלָחֹ֖ג אֶת־חַ֥ג הַסֻּכּֽוֹת

And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles.

Strong's Hebrew: 5521. סֻכָּה (sukkah) -- a thicket, booth

Sukkot - Wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

Revelation 21:3. 'And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God'.

What are the reasons to believe that Revelations is word of God prophecy? Seems to me this is even less reliable than Acts since not all Christians agree that Revelations is part of Christian cannon.

 

[dybmh]

if God has sent his own Son, and Jews reject that Son, then effectively they become idolatrous.

You still haven't explained how rejection of "God's son" is idol worship.

@Redemptionsong , do you concede this point? Can you support it?

 

[rational experiences]

The human man's self Idolating you don't ever listen to father. First highest greatest man's life was mutual equal life with human mother.

No matter what advice is stated you don't listen. God status in science is first highest natural in presence of humans also.

Father mother equal. No self idolator or Idolating. Equal humans.

Star fall returned that had killed off dinosaurs. Your bio baby man life mind body changed. Self Idolating emerged.

The exact teaching man humans condition you lie self Idolating you still are to this day and have not stopped.

You read mutual equal. You ignore natural law is first mutual equal...one of anything.

In species one owning two mutual.

Laws of nature.
...
warned self Idolating keeps family segregated.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Still not sitting. No crime here Just at the right hand. God hasn't moved... And that ignores whether Jesus crushed/crushes/will crush any kings. So again, even if you're right that this is a messianic psalm... can it really be Jesus? At best it's unknown till the future.

If the psalm is read hyper-literally ( which is what you're doing ), then it can't be ignored that the tense on translation you're using is dodgy. Take a look at psalms 68:21. "shall strike" is "יִמְחַץ֮" "strikes/or has struck" is "מָחַ֖ץ". The first letter 'yud' makes the difference and shifts it to future. I can't find a good Jewish source for this, but I found a Christian one: Hebrew Qal Imperfect with Strong Verbs

So, in order for this verse to be about Jesus, he needs to have striken or currently is striking kings.

But if it's the past tense, it's easy: The story is written in Genesis 14, Abraham crushes the Kings to save Lot. And Abraham is called "אֲדֹנִ֗י" in Genesis 23:6; that's the same word in Psalm 110:1. See below:

Gen 23:6

שְׁמָעֵ֣נוּ ׀ אֲדֹנִ֗י נְשִׂ֨יא אֱלֹהִ֤ים אַתָּה֙ בְּתוֹכֵ֔נוּ בְּמִבְחַ֣ר קְבָרֵ֔ינוּ קְבֹ֖ר אֶת־מֵתֶ֑ךָ אִ֣ישׁ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ אֶת־קִבְר֛וֹ לֹֽא־יִכְלֶ֥ה מִמְּךָ֖ מִקְּבֹ֥ר מֵתֶֽךָ׃

“Hear us, my lord: you are the elect of God among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our burial places; none of us will withhold his burial place from you for burying your dead.”​

Psalm 110:1

לְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֤ם יְהֹוָ֨ה ׀ לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹ֝יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃

Of David. A psalm.

The LORD said to my lord,
“Sit at My right hand
while I make your enemies your footstool.”
​

And that's how to do a scriptural substitution. It needs to be the same word used in both verses.

So, we have two good reasons that the "my lord" in this psalm is Abraham (verse 1 and verse 5). and we have two good reasons why it can't be Jesus ( verse 4 and 5 ). And there's still not any reasons why understanding the subject as Abraham results in idol worship as you claimed.

From a Christian perspective, Christ is currently striking kings, because through his body, the Church, he is active in defeating his enemies even now.

If you declare that Abraham is sitting at the right hand of God, who is in heaven, then you glorify Abraham in a manner that could lead to the accusation of idolatry.

If, on the other hand, you admit that the Psalm was written by David, and is speaking about the Messiah sitting at the right hand of God, then we find consistency throughout scripture. Let's not forget that the King Messiah is also a priest after the order of Melchizedek, for how could the Son of David, of the tribe of Judah, also be an Aaronide, after the tribe of Levi?

Or do you not accept that the Messiah will be both a king and priest?

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is changing the subject a bit. There's nothing in 61:1-2 which identify the speaker as anyone other than Isaiah speaking about himself.

So, rather than seeing Christ as the primary subject of prophecy, you see scripture littered with heroic figures from Jewish history. First, in Psalms 110, we have Abraham sitting at the right hand of God, and now, in Isaiah we have Isaiah himself claiming to be the Anointed One and Judge of the world!

It seems to me that the case for idolatry has just been enlarged from one, Abraham, to two, Abraham and Isaiah!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ummmm, no. the Feast of Tabernacles would be sukkot.

Zech 14:16

טז וְהָיָ֗ה כָּל־הַנּוֹתָר֙ מִכָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֔ם הַבָּאִ֖ים עַל־יְרֽוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְעָל֞וּ מִדֵּ֧י שָׁנָ֣ה בְשָׁנָ֗ה לְהִֽשְׁתַּחֲו‍ֹת֙ לְמֶ֙לֶךְ֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֔וֹת וְלָחֹ֖ג אֶת־חַ֥ג הַסֻּכּֽוֹת

And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles.

Strong's Hebrew: 5521. סֻכָּה (sukkah) -- a thicket, booth

Sukkot - Wikipedia

Yes, but what does the Torah tell us about Tabernacles, or Succot?

Tabernacles was first held in response to God tabernacling amongst the Israelites in the wilderness. The making of booths by lsraelites is an image of what God created for himself. The picture is of God creating his own tabernacle (Christ) followed by the people each having their own tabernacle (in Christ).

The tabernacle and its contents were carried from the wilderness into lsrael, and were finally moved from Mount Zion into Solomon's temple on Mount Moriah. This event is beautifully described in Josephus [Antiquities Vll, ch.4, sections 1,2.]

Josephus describes the cloud, the visible presence of God's Spirit, inside the temple.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What are the reasons to believe that Revelations is word of God prophecy? Seems to me this is even less reliable than Acts since not all Christians agree that Revelations is part of Christian cannon.

If you read Genesis 1:1, then Revelation 21:1, you will see that Revelation brings to completion the whole plan of God. Even Isaiah prophesies the coming of the new heaven, and the new earth.

 

[Redemptionsong]

@Redemptionsong , do you concede this point? Can you support it?

The law was intended to keep lsrael 'hedged' within a form of righteousness until the day that their sin could be washed away.

When the Saviour arrived, offering himself as a sacrifice for sin, the Jews had an opportunity to grasp freedom, and be born again of God's righteous Spirit. By rejecting this offer, the (Torah) Jews have become blind, and guilty of idolatry [Hosea 5:15], whilst the message of salvation has been shared with Gentiles across the world. But the time of God's final offer to the Jews is now upon us, l believe. [Hosea 6:1-3]

In other words, the slide into idolatry is defined by a rejection of God's salvation. For if God offers to make himself known, and people reject the offer, they are, in effect preferring a state of ignorance. How can you claim to worship God in Spirit and truth if you don't know the Saviour?

 

[Redemptionsong]

@Redemptionsong , do you concede this point? Can you support it?

I'll add a third scripture for your consideration. Psalm 22. To me, this speaks about the crucifixion of Jesus in a very intimate manner.

Who do you think it refers to? I can guess that you will say David, or maybe another unknown lsraelite.

Can we add another name to the list of idols? Christ, once again, being replaced by a temporal figure who does not have the power to save?

 

[dybmh]

From a Christian perspective, Christ is currently striking kings, because through his body, the Church, he is active in defeating his enemies even now.

Sure, but is there scripture to support this, or is it more... hopeful.

If you declare that Abraham is sitting at the right hand of God, who is in heaven, then you glorify Abraham in a manner that could lead to the accusation of idolatry.

No one is sitting in the psalm. "Sitting" is an interpretation that is being added to it. It's not scriptural. It's a fail.

If, on the other hand, you admit that the Psalm was written by David, and is speaking about the Messiah sitting at the right hand of God, then we find consistency throughout scripture. Let's not forget that the King Messiah is also a priest after the order of Melchizedek, for how could the Son of David, of the tribe of Judah, also be an Aaronide, after the tribe of Levi?

Or do you not accept that the Messiah will be both a king and priest?

1) I have repeatedly said, no one is sitting in this psalm. That's all imagined.

2) Jesus wasn't a priest. It was never written in the Gospels. King Messiah is not a priest. It was never written in Tanach. Without those two, the logical argument about Malchi-tzedek fails.

3) I reviewed the argument as presented in Hebrews. Not very convincing on first read. And it doesn't appear to be word of God prophecy.

 

[dybmh]

So, rather than seeing Christ as the primary subject of prophecy, you see scripture littered with heroic figures from Jewish history. First, in Psalms 110, we have Abraham sitting at the right hand of God, and now, in Isaiah we have Isaiah himself claiming to be the Anointed One and Judge of the world!

No one is sitting in Psalm 110. That's imaginary.

Christ is not the primary subject of prophecy! 100% correct. When and where it speaks of "salvation", then the subject can be understood as "Christ". As I said "Christ" is "salvation". Do you disagree? Christ isn't salvation???

Now what does Isaiah 61:1-2 say? I'll use the KJV since you seem to like it and trust it.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;​

What is stated purpose of the speaker?

1. to preach
2. to bind
3. to proclaim
4. to proclaim

Even if you keep going in the rest of the chapter, where is "salvation"? There's only prophecy.

It seems to me that the case for idolatry has just been enlarged from one, Abraham, to two, Abraham and Isaiah!

No one is worshipping Isaiah and Abraham. That is an outright lie.

Exodus 20:16, Proverbs 6:16-17 Proverbs 12:22, Proverbs 19:9