Without the Holy Spirit...

[Muffled]

So for someone like me, who has no spiritual frame of mind since I approach things with a materialistic frame of mind, best to walk away?

I believe I am hoping that is why you are on RF, so you can hear interpretations from spiritual individuals.

 

[sun rise]

The thing about being "led by the holy spirit" is that there is no way to distinguish genuine guidance from the voice of your own intuition.

I would not say "no way" but instead reflect on the difficulty in distinguishing true intuition from personal desires except by deep internal reflection about the motivation, witnessing the flow of emotions and reflecting on the result. So to me it's difficult and takes a long time but is not impossible to the truly dedicated.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe I am hoping that is why you are on RF, so you can hear interpretations from spiritual individuals.

Honestly, I started off thinking I was a spiritual individual.
Now I question that belief for myself. For better or worse, you all are stuck with the results.

 

[sun rise]

I ask because I dont understand how you would deem that a myth.

Dont you think this could be one single source, picked up by many these? Just because there are others who wrote of a flood, does that mean everything is a myth?

The general consensus of the scientific community is there is no proof of a world-wide flood. Instead we have very different flood stories from different cultures all over the world which could easily be from different events.

And how the "cargo cult" myth got started is a historical example of how myths develop from real events.

So even if there were a single source proven in the future, what we have today is mythology surrounding the event.

Another example is Moses parting the Red Sea. The original language could be translated as "Reed Sea" or "Sea of Reeds" and a simulation showed that wind in a particular direction and speed could open up a path https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ion-for-the-parting-of-the-red-sea-in-exodus/ Again something might have been real but mythologized in the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

The general consensus of the scientific community is there is no proof of a world-wide flood.

What if it was so long ago and is yet to find or never to be found?

And how the "cargo cult" myth got started is a historical example of how myths develop from real events.

So what if a real event is now a myth to you based on what you know and/or want to believe? What if it was a local flood, or the human population was still limited to a small area in the world so long ago?

What if the writer of Gilgamesh was inspired this story and he wrote mythology? After all Abraham came from Iraq. Maybe both have the same source.

Another example is Moses parting the Red Sea. The original language could be translated as "Reed Sea" or "Sea of Reeds" and a simulation showed that wind in a particular direction and speed could open up a path https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ion-for-the-parting-of-the-red-sea-in-exodus/ Again something might have been real but mythologized in the Bible.

Its yaam Soof in Hebrew. First translating it into English, then turning some concept of "reed sea" is utter nonsense. Dont follow that kind of thing SunRise where ever you find it. Its like taking a word in Sanskrit like Aghosha, translating it into English and call it lower sound or something and then finding a radio shack called lower sound in Africa and saying Agosha means a radio shack in Timbuktu.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Joseph Smith found all was " Lo here " and, " Lo there ".; but a Angel set him straight with yet another religion via the
gold books of Mormon.

Riiiiiight. (face palm)

 

[savagewind]

Can one interpret the Bible?

Some claim the Bible interprets itself, which I disagree with.
I interpret the Bible. Usually taking the plainest most mundane meaning. However I can't guarantee this mundane simple meaning to have been the intent of the original author.

Still I have heard from many, making many claims about the true meaning of scripture. I've given up trying to reconcile the numerous claims made by those claiming via some unknown authority, their interpretation.

Should non-believers simply pack up their bags and move to some other topic when it comes to understanding the Bible, or can anyone read the Bible using common language skills and understand it.

The past has been corrupted Go forward for peace on Earth and then you might find a friendship with The Holy Spirit.

 

[MyM]

It's less "the Bible self-interprets" then it is how skeptics look at single verses out of context. Bible believers recognize that different Bible authors can help us understand other passages, too.

If it is from God there should be no authors, God should endorse it throughout but in the Bible he doesn't.

 

[sun rise]

What if it was so long ago and is yet to find or never to be found?



So what if a real event is now a myth to you based on what you know and/or want to believe? What if it was a local flood, or the human population was still limited to a small area in the world so long ago?

What if the writer of Gilgamesh was inspired this story and he wrote mythology? After all Abraham came from Iraq. Maybe both have the same source.



Its yaam Soof in Hebrew. First translating it into English, then turning some concept of "reed sea" is utter nonsense. Dont follow that kind of thing SunRise where ever you find it. Its like taking a word in Sanskrit like Aghosha, translating it into English and call it lower sound or something and then finding a radio shack called lower sound in Africa and saying Agosha means a radio shack in Timbuktu.

I'm not interested in playing "what if". I'm guided by the evidence or lack thereof and not by what if when it comes to stating what is known. Perhaps there was indeed a flood from which Inca, Native American tribes, African peoples and other stories are the result. Why the story of a flood is so widespread is an interesting question. But until there's a shred of real evidence, what if leads nowhere and I might as well believe in the Ojibwe story Waynaboozhoo and the Great Flood as anything.

You're wrong about yam suph. The Yam Suph: "Red Sea" or "Sea of Reeds" and other places translate that as I gave here.

 

[Audie]

Riiiiiight. (face palm)

Its what their lil book they gave me sez.

 

[Audie]

The general consensus of the scientific community is there is no proof of a world-wide flood. Instead we have very different flood stories from different cultures all over the world which could easily be from different events.

And how the "cargo cult" myth got started is a historical example of how myths develop from real events.

So even if there were a single source proven in the future, what we have today is mythology surrounding the event.

Another example is Moses parting the Red Sea. The original language could be translated as "Reed Sea" or "Sea of Reeds" and a simulation showed that wind in a particular direction and speed could open up a path https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ion-for-the-parting-of-the-red-sea-in-exodus/ Again something might have been real but mythologized in the Bible.

Of course far from just " no proof of flood "
theres vast proof it did not happen

 

[idea]

Yes I can.

Quran is a divine miracle and I've witnessed enough of it's signs to know this(1).
Mohammad (S) and his family (a) rule the world through their light and are the true kings if we open our eyes to the light, we know it's them right now who are the light (2).
Mohammad (s) and his family (a) have telepathy abilities and they are needed in the journey, and have helped me in my life(3).
There is philosophy in Quran as to what the religion of truth is and why it is the truth in abstract form whether it's Harun's (a) Ahlulbayt or Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) in a given time, but shows why it's always in a form, and why Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) are the only instance right now of the abstract true religion and so I believe on the reasoning of Quran which to me is logical and sound as well. (4)

Which ever one of these you want to get into detail, we can.

What I would love to see - a debate between Mormons and Muslims over whose scriptures were really inspired, and whose founder was actually a pro$$it. Quite a few parallel stories and claims between those two groups. ... perhaps the Mormons could learn a few things as Muslims created much larger following and are still growing I think.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not interested in playing "what if"

You did worse. Because you took two stories, you cannot think beyond the mythicists, and you think one was copied from each other.

Gilgamesh epic was written after Noah was supposed to have lived. Two genres. So what copied from which one?

All you did was what if. Just that someone else made a speculation based on similarities, and you just worshiped those mythicists like God because what ever they say is true.

Now you get a little angry.

No worries mate. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

What I would love to see - a debate between Mormons and Muslims over whose scriptures were really inspired, and whose founder was actually a pro$$it. Quite a few parallel stories and claims between those two groups. ... perhaps the Mormons could learn a few things as Muslims created much larger following and are still growing I think.

What are the parallel claims?

 

[firedragon]

You're wrong about yam suph. The Yam Suph: "Red Sea" or "Sea of Reeds" and other places translate that as I gave here.

What was I wrong about? You took an English translation and equated it to Reed Sea or something like that from some article about some "What if". Thats seriously absurd.

And if you are empiricist, can you provide empirical evidence to everything you have some belief in? Can you provide empirical faith to every scripture you have some faith in?

Lets see what empirical evidence you could provide. Your standard is "Empirical Evidence = Truth" and "No Empirical Evidence = Its a myth".

So lets see.

 

[InChrist]

Can one interpret the Bible?

Some claim the Bible interprets itself, which I disagree with.
I interpret the Bible. Usually taking the plainest most mundane meaning. However I can't guarantee this mundane simple meaning to have been the intent of the original author.

Still I have heard from many, making many claims about the true meaning of scripture. I've given up trying to reconcile the numerous claims made by those claiming via some unknown authority, their interpretation.

Should non-believers simply pack up their bags and move to some other topic when it comes to understanding the Bible, or can anyone read the Bible using common language skills and understand it.

I think the basic gospel message of the Bible is simple enough for a child to understand. If one accepts the easy to understand gospel message and trusts Jesus Christ as their Savior, they are born again (regenerated) to new eternal life in Christ and the Holy Spirit from that point on indwells the person and continues to provide further insight and understanding of the more complex aspects of the scriptures. I believe the scriptures do interpret themselves, meaning that difficult passages can and are clarified by other verses/ passages.
Just my thoughts and experience.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Believers constantly feed religious theology into their subconscious mind. The subconscious mind has plenty of information to autonomously create thoughts to feed into believers conscious awareness.

Confirmation bias?

 

[PearlSeeker]

Some claim the Bible interprets itself, which I disagree with.

There are many cross-references in the Bible. Some Bibles have added marks...

 

[Truthseeker]

The Bible is tricky since there's a lot of mythology some which appears to be based on history and some borrowing from earlier myths such as the flood myth. If one avoids literalist traps and looks at some of the stories as designed to teach certain principles, then asking what psychological or sociological principles might be the heart of some of the stories can be fruitful.

Very good. I agree with that, except I put emphasis on spiritual principles. I also have doubts about the history of the Israelites.

And it depends if you want to focus on the NT or also include the OT. To me, the NT takes some things from the OT, specifically the primacy of love, and puts them "front and center" with the Sermon on the Mount, statement of the two greatest commandments and 1 Corinthians 13.

Yes, the Sermon on the Mount and also the rest.

 

[Truthseeker]

Good Mornin,

I am speaking from self experience. I was born and raised in a First Baptist family. I grew up goin to church, revivals, camps, I went through the entire ordeals of almost everythin they put out there. I went as far as Jamaica to spread the gospel and we were in choirs n such. I did everythin I was supposed to in the "Christian" arena. Got saved, asked Jesus to come into my heart, baptised, went out on visitation times, etc. etc. etc. I was well known in my church youth groups, activities, everything. I had a great deal of fun "preaching the gospel" and havin a great time defending my belief. I was so adamant-actually extremely adamant that Jesus died for my sins and that's the only way to God.

I was supposed to have that holy spirit in me. But I started to get confused. I started askin myself am I supposed to pray to God or Jesus? I started reading the Bible with an open mind instead of a persistent Baptist mind. I started finding mistakes and mistakes and mistakes. I started questioning my religion AND I HATED THAT. But it started to not make sense. I took out all of Jesus' passages. I put them all on a piece of paper. They hardly made up 1pg and a half from the entire Bible. I started thinkin, how can this be. I went to pastors and asked about the trinity since Jesus mostly stated to pray to the Father, not him. That the Lord God is one God. He could do nothing from himself. The pastors just kept on giving me their version that you must have faith and through Jesus Christ is the only way to get to heaven. I stopped going to preachers because they never could answer me fully and before you say they didn't explain it very well, I went to quite a few and they all said the same thing. So I started my journey into the unknown. I would never deny my Creator I knew that and I loved Jesus with all my heart so no one can thwart me there.

I started writing down the mistakes I found in the Bible. They started piling up. And anyone in the world has the power to do this, to me, the holy ghost was letting me down. I knew that God does not make mistakes in his word. I just knew it. I started with the authors of the books, I found out that Moses didn't even write the first 5 books and the story continues. I went from page one to the end. I was not a Bible scholar to interpret the works of the Bible, but I was human, I was saved, I was supposed to have the holy spirit in me. I even found plagiarism in the Bible. The Book of Isaiah 37 and then in 2 Kings 19. Exact same words. Why? No one could answer me this. They kept on telling me, it's the way God works...in Mysterious ways, etc. By the way, they use that a lot. So if The preachers and pastors can't explain to me forthright, then where is the Holy Spirit they claim that would guide me into all truth? It was abandoning me. I was not a joke. I loved my religion. I love Jesus. I love God. But it seemed to be all falling apart on me.

That is when I started asking questions outside my religion. By the way, that is like serious taboo. To venture outside and start having doubts and to go away from the religion your parents taught you on-especially First Baptist is a no no. But I did it because I wanted answers to my questions.

I asked about many religions and I went as far as to speak to rabis in the Jewish arena. I found out about a lot of religions but I kept it to the ones of the Creator, not man made ones. To me, those didn't seem realistic to keep God and Jesus out of the equation. I then met a Muslim. He explained quite a lot. I started my journey into Islam from that day forwards. I went to meetings, I went to gatherings. I started learning about this religion that only professed One God and loved all the prophets of God. They loved Jesus! I was shocked to be honest because many people just tell you they are in hell and believe differently. Well, yes, they did believe differently but they proved to me the reasons why. They had the answers I was looking for. It coincided with what Jesus was saying on my paper even! After that, it took me some time because I was afraid of what my parents, my pastor, my friends would all do if they found out. The pressure was unsurmountable. But I listened to my gut and I believe I truly found the truth.

So now the question stems outward....do you think that they can interpret the Bible without the holy ghost. My answer is YES.

That is exactly what you should do. Independent investigation of truth!