Wokeness is a problem and we all know it

[ADigitalArtist]

While I think there is a problem with *preformative* wokeness, (appropriating movements or ideas or ideologues for superficial goals. I.e. Disney trying to make 'boss girl' characters because they assume that's what feminists want. Or Twitter collectives looking for the next hunt for a social black sheep who used the wrong word) I don't think the problem is what James is talking about. This sounds more like a problem of getting older. The kids are using newfangled words and I don't get them, so everyone else must not get them either.

This is also what led to a huge swaths of apathy towards being scientifically literate, because trying to develop new terminology to handle ideas with increasing complexity was interpreted as 'talking down to you' when it entered the greater public discourse. That coupled with natural language drift alienated older generations and also was capitalized by those who wanted to seem 'hip and with the modern flow.'

The problem, I think, is when people use terms without asking what they mean, and people who run across new terms don't bother to ask.

 

[The Hammer]

So Democrats having high ethical and moral standards is a problem in a political climate when the conservatives have been sliding towards lower ethical and moral standards. The gulf is too broad to attract the moderates who might be struggling with the emotional attraction to unethical belief versus reasoned ethical ideals. If America was mostly Buddhist monks there would be Democrats in most every political position.

I agreed with everything up until your Buddhist monk line. I don't think that has any correlation.

 

[PureX]

"Wokeness is a problem and we all know it"

“Wokeness is a problem,” he told me, “and we all know it.” According to Carville, Democrats are in power for now, but they also only narrowly defeated Donald Trump, “a world-historical buffoon,” and they lost congressional seats and failed to pick up state legislatures. The reason is simple: They’ve got a “messaging problem.”


I'm typically not a fan of Vox, but this is a good interview that brings home some salient points on the current state of Democratic politics and where it should move towards the future.

The democrats fundamental problem isn't "messaging". It's that they are just as bribed up and corrupted by the corporate conglomerates and their bag-men lobbyists as the republicans are, and most traditional democratic voters know it. So when they try and pretend that they are all for the 'working man' and the 'middle class', their actions show them to be liars. And have been showing them to be liars for a long time, now. So their "messaging" just looks like a lot of BS. Which is what it is.

There's nothing wrong with the message. What's wrong is with the people spewing it, not doing it. Not cow-towing to American ignorance and bigotry like the republicans do isn't the democrat's problem. Being socially progressive is the only area where they actually stand for something other than greed. American "wokeness" is only a problem for them because it illuminates their hypocrisy in every other way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Wokeness is a problem and we all know it"

“Wokeness is a problem,” he told me, “and we all know it.” According to Carville, Democrats are in power for now, but they also only narrowly defeated Donald Trump, “a world-historical buffoon,” and they lost congressional seats and failed to pick up state legislatures. The reason is simple: They’ve got a “messaging problem.”


I'm typically not a fan of Vox, but this is a good interview that brings home some salient points on the current state of Democratic politics and where it should move towards the future.

I agree on many points, and it makes sense the language and words used matters, and a common usage of words builds better common ground.

 

[Erebus]

It's been a bugbear of mine for a while now that the right gets to freely engage in cancel culture, identity politics and intolerance to other viewpoints, yet these issues are invariably presented as the left's problem. That doesn't mean that the left has no faults, it absolutely does, but the double standard is infuriating. I agree with Carville, that major faults from a right wing politician are less damaging to themselves and their party than comparatively minor faults from left wing politicians.

I also agree that the right is far, far better at sloganising and presenting their talking points in easily understood ways. Both of those are things that the left would do well to improve on. Pick up on a few issues that have broad support and make them central to a campaign. You have to break down a complex subject in such a way that those with only a passing interest in politics (which seems to be the majority of people) can grasp your objective.

I disagree to an extent that the left needs to go on an all out assault on the flaws of their opponents. While I do think it's time to make it clear just how much the right engages in the exact same behaviours they accuse the left of, we've been slamming Trump for years and his supporters didn't care. That's a key thing to keep in mind. When somebody builds a cult of personality, the people who buy into it do not care about that person's faults. To further complicate matters, the Republican party of today is the party of Trump. Bringing the flaws of other Republican politicians to the forefront is likely to have a limited effectiveness since Trump is currently the embodiment of the Republican party.

That's not to say that we should let Republican politicians off the hook. No, it's still worth reminding people of their sleaze and hypocrisy. I think it would be a mistake to make this a central component of the Democrat's strategy though.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That the word has been weaponised? I didn't get that. He seems to be saying "ordinary folk" don't use such terms; "a messaging problem." (One that I agree with).

Not so much that wokeness has been weaponised. More so that the Conservatives are good at identifying slogans, and then hammering it home time and time again.

 

[Secret Chief]

Not so much that wokeness has been weaponised. More so that the Conservatives are good at identifying slogans, and then hammering it home time and time again.

It seems pretty weaponised to me where the headbangers spit it out on twitter.

 

[Secret Chief]

It's been a bugbear of mine for a while now that the right gets to freely engage in cancel culture, identity politics and intolerance to other viewpoints, yet these issues are invariably presented as the left's problem. That doesn't mean that the left has no faults, it absolutely does, but the double standard is infuriating. I agree with Carville, that major faults from a right wing politician are less damaging to themselves and their party than comparatively minor faults from left wing politicians.

I also agree that the right is far, far better at sloganising and presenting their talking points in easily understood ways. Both of those are things that the left would do well to improve on. Pick up on a few issues that have broad support and make them central to a campaign. You have to break down a complex subject in such a way that those with only a passing interest in politics (which seems to be the majority of people) can grasp your objective.

I disagree to an extent that the left needs to go on an all out assault on the flaws of their opponents. While I do think it's time to make it clear just how much the right engages in the exact same behaviours they accuse the left of, we've been slamming Trump for years and his supporters didn't care. That's a key thing to keep in mind. When somebody builds a cult of personality, the people who buy into it do not care about that person's faults. To further complicate matters, the Republican party of today is the party of Trump. Bringing the flaws of other Republican politicians to the forefront is likely to have a limited effectiveness since Trump is currently the embodiment of the Republican party.

That's not to say that we should let Republican politicians off the hook. No, it's still worth reminding people of their sleaze and hypocrisy. I think it would be a mistake to make this a central component of the Democrat's strategy though.

Identical in the UK. At the last General Election the left produced an all too comprehensive list of policy aims. The right produced a three word slogan. Guess who won. (Albeit under the antidemocratic FPTP system).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It seems pretty weaponised to me where the headbangers spit it out on twitter.

Well...maybe. But you were asking me about the article. I think it fits under sloganeering

 

[wellwisher]

"Wokeness is a problem and we all know it"

“Wokeness is a problem,” he told me, “and we all know it.” According to Carville, Democrats are in power for now, but they also only narrowly defeated Donald Trump, “a world-historical buffoon,” and they lost congressional seats and failed to pick up state legislatures. The reason is simple: They’ve got a “messaging problem.”


I'm typically not a fan of Vox, but this is a good interview that brings home some salient points on the current state of Democratic politics and where it should move towards the future.

The Democrat messaging appeals to the far left, whose ideas are out of touch with realty. Censorship of the Right is part of the cheat to win tactic. The center left is more practical minded and does not relate to this. However, they still go along because the Republican party is the boogeyman.

Woke to me means you woke up yesterday and have no clue of history. There is history amnesia, as a pretense to scam the system. Many live in a fantasy bubble that says this is the worse of times, when the opposite is true. All you need to do is watch film from the1950-60's civil rights movement and even before that, that shows the worse of times under the segregation policies of the Southern Democrats who had a powerful influence in Washington during that era.

The real problem is the Democrats have not owned up to their shady slavey and segregation past, but are seeking ways to deny the past and spread the blame to others. Woke was a way around their own history. If you woke yesterday you can ignore everything before that awakening.

Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president, while Southern Democrats were the ones who were willing to divide the country to maintain slavery. After the Civil War ended and the country was reunited, the southern Democrats instituted policies, locally and nationally, designed to keep the blacks segregated and down. Many large cities where the main riots were last year, are Democrat run with traces of that shady heritage.

Woke was a tactic designed to ignore all that, by waking up today, so one can blame someone else, via history amnesia and its cousin, revisionist history. The center Democrats are better informed about the past, and did not woke yesterday. There are not willing to ignore the real past, but can see the progress that was made.

Maybe Democrats leadership can do something new and tell the truth. The Democrats have never owned up to the atrocities of their party, but try to blame all whites or all Republicans, to water down their own culpability. Black Republicans can still be treated the way Democrats used to treat all blacks. This, by their own definition is not called racism. In the mind to leadership, this is valid, if you woke yesterday. Does hypocrisy bother center Democrats and does messaging that shows hypocrisy bother center Democrats?

 

[Erebus]

Identical in the UK. At the last General Election the left produced an all too comprehensive list of policy aims. The right produced a three word slogan. Guess who won. (Albeit under the antidemocratic FPTP system).

Yup, I live in the UK too and "Get Brexit Done" was the first thing that popped into my head when the article mentioned sloganising. I personally felt that Corbyn's approach to Brexit was the most sensible middle-ground but it really didn't capture people's attention or speak to their wishes.

I also fully agree that proportional representation is the way to go for the UK and the USA.

 

[Secret Chief]

I also fully agree that proportional representation is the way to go for the UK and the USA.

It'll need an alliance of the left to achieve that. I'm not holding my breath. My new slogan is "Lose Alone, Win Together" although I admit it's too long.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does it? I don't see how?

What Carrville is calling "wokeness" - i.e. actively working on equity, diversity and inclusion, being conscious of intersectionality, etc. - is very much part of front-line activism these days. It's even part of the very mainstream, corporate-sponsored charitites I'm involved with.

If he think it's only the stuff of "faculty lounges," I have to assume that it's because these days his social circle includes lots of professors and not many people out there "on the streets" actually getting stuff done.

 

[Kooky]

It was an interesting article. Would you be willing to articulate what it is you're disagreeing with?
Not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely interested in your take on this.

I've already ranted about that at length in my second post of this thread.

What Carrville is calling "wokeness" - i.e. actively working on equity, diversity and inclusion, being conscious of intersectionality, etc. - is very much part of front-line activism these days. It's even part of the very mainstream, corporate-sponsored charitites I'm involved with.

If he think it's only the stuff of "faculty lounges," I have to assume that it's because these days his social circle includes lots of professors and not many people out there "on the streets" actually getting stuff done.

Yea, that was my takeaway as well. He seems to be genuinely unable to grasp that people might actually be invested in these issues out of their own very personal experiences with them. He cannot fathom that people could be authentically woke.

EDIT: And what he definitely does not seem to recognize is that there might be POC or LGBTQ people with an extremely personal interest in these issues, perhaps because these folks do not live inside his social bubble.

 

[Kooky]

That the word has been weaponised? I didn't get that. He seems to be saying "ordinary folk" don't use such terms; "a messaging problem." (One that I agree with).

From what I've heard on the history of the word, the term "woke" has been part of the African American vernacular for far longer than it has been utilized by well-meaning (and less well meaning) White Americans. (The Oxford dictionary credits Black author William Melvin Kelly with coining the term in 1962, but I find it likely that the term's usage in the African American community goes back much further than that.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yea, that was my takeaway as well. He seems to be genuinely unable to grasp that people might actually be invested in these issues out of their own very personal experiences with them. He cannot fathom that people could be authentically woke.

The first event where I was offered a "pronouns" badge for my name tag was sponsored by Boeing, Google and Chrysler... and that was 3 years ago. The stuff he thinks only gets talked about in faculty lounges is as mainstream as can be.

Maybe he's focusing on faculty lounges the way that the more successful a standup comedian gets, the more their routine becomes about air travel and hotels.

 

[Kooky]

Maybe he's focusing on faculty lounges the way that the more successful a standup comedian gets, the more their routine becomes about air travel and hotels.

He has probably observed how well anti-intellectualism is received among right-wing supporters, perhaps he is trying to ape their methods in an effort to ape their success, too?

 

[Yerda]

The Wokes are the Real Problem_version_734,560,121,472

By a lizard in a human suit

 

[Kooky]

The Wokes are the Real Problem_version_734,560,121,472

By a lizard in a human suit

Hey now, I know some perfectly likeable lizards who don't deserve that kind of association!

 

[F1fan]

The democrats fundamental problem isn't "messaging". It's that they are just as bribed up and corrupted by the corporate conglomerates and their bag-men lobbyists as the republicans are, and most traditional democratic voters know it.

If you mean that Democrats accept big donor money like Republicans, sure. If they didn't they probably couldn't afford to compete. So they are caught by the existing election laws. But let's note that many corporations are run by decent people and support the good policies of Democrats, so not so much bribery as it is they recognize a need to have the society Democrats are working for.

So when they try and pretend that they are all for the 'working man' and the 'middle class', their actions show them to be liars. And have been showing them to be liars for a long time, now. So their "messaging" just looks like a lot of BS. Which is what it is.

I hear this a lot, but it's just not the case. We see Democrats consistently advocating for members of society who don't have health care access, whose civil rights are compromised, who face discrimination, and for more fair tax rates, etc. Compare that set of priorities to republicans whose priorities seem to be to help the wealthy retain more wealth and help business get more advantages in our economy.

There's nothing wrong with the message. What's wrong is with the people spewing it, not doing it. Not cow-towing to American ignorance and bigotry like the republicans do isn't the democrat's problem. Being socially progressive is the only area where they actually stand for something other than greed. American "wokeness" is only a problem for them because it illuminates their hypocrisy in every other way.

I think part of the woeness problem is how much it exposes the faults in conservatism these days. There is a lot of emphasis on progressive issues and solutions. The more push back from conservatives the more press it gets. I suspect conservatives are looking less tolerant and more divisive as a result, and instead of conceding the issues they push back on words like "woeness".

Some of the issues at hand: Black people's lives matter. Transgender people want basic rights. Police brutality is a systemic problem. Tax rates for the wealthy so the USA can afford social programs and infrastructure investment. Reproduction rights. Access to voting.