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Wokeness is a problem and we all know it

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
They could stop the gerrymandering and push for proportional representation, thus increasing the weight of a diverse urban electorate that has been firmly voted left for decades and securing a stable voter base for their party's. long term success.

And yet it seems that among the Democratic establishment, pandering to a dwindling minority of old white men from rural areas, who haven't given them the time of the day since the early 1970s, is still seen as the winning strategy by comparison.

Even devoid of moral judgement, this sounds extremely counterproductive to me in the long run.

I tend to agree. Admitting that I'm not as across American political trends as I need to be to have an informed opinion on this, his strategy seems like a short term 'fix' to win the next election.

In the longer term, though, a more effective strategy with emerging demographics...Latin American in particular...is required.

I think his basic premise of less jargon is actually a good one to some degree, but his rationale behind it, and his willingness to reinforce stereotypes around 'wokeness' seem to play into Conservative hands.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The democrats had a super-majority. They had no need or reason whatever to haggle with republicans. They could have passed whatever they wanted.
You're correct. Democrats were naive and expected Republicans to act in good faith. They've learned that Republicans are corrupt and have no interest in helping the average citizen.

But they didn't want any real reforms. They were being paid to make sure no real reforms, happened. And so no real reforms happened.
Just not true. Its funny how right wing people are completely perplexed that any political can actually care for the people they represent. But that's the corruption of conservatism since the 90's under Gingrich. The fact is decent citizens want reforms in the USA and they vote for other decent people seeking office.


And instead, they fixed as little as they could get away with. While the republicans immediately started blaming any and every flaw on them. Even though is was a 20 year old republican plan they settled on.
Republicans created flaws that they then pointed to. It was criticized as socialized medicine. remember how Palin accused it of being a death panel? That's how Republicans approached this reform, disinformation and sabotage.


If you can't see the affect of legalized bribery on our legislature, nothing I bother to dig up will convince you. The lobbyists now commonly write the legislation, themselves, and hand it to their bought and paid for legislators to pass into law, often without ever even reading it. This is common behavior, and common knowledge. Legislators even admit it (occasionally). So how you missed it is beyond me.
I'm asking you to use real language, and make a coherent argument, not use exaggerations. If you have to exaggerate then you aren't very confident in your position.

Obama wanted universal health care. And he said so. But all those democrats magically fell into a stupor and just couldn't seem to figure our how to do that even though 30 other major nations have all managed it. We could simply have picked one and copied theirs.
You don't think that was an option? Insurance companies and Republicans had a fit, and referred to this huge reform as bad socialized medicine, and then used disinformation and scare tactics instead of working with Democrats to help people attain healthcare. That's how a government begins to fail.

Why do you think all those democrats suddenly became mentally incapacitated? Especially when every one of them was getting huge campaign contributions from the insurance lobby, and the pharmaceutical lobby, and the hospital conglomerate's lobby, and the medical manufacturer's lobby, and every other lobby related to health care.
And there's a great argument for why we need campaign reform. We need money out of politics. But the more Republicans pander to big money the more Democrats have to match the fund raising, and yes that means big donors will get more representation than the average citizen.

All of whom are desperately afraid of our establishing a national health care system because every other nation that has done so has realized that they had to set pricing limits to stop the rampant price-gouging that goes on in health care. And all these corporate entities involved in U.S. health care are making fortunes by price-gouging us for EVERYTHING involved in it. From insurance, to medication, to hardware to hospitals and doctors, to whatever.
Yup, it's a big racket. And who is out there talking reform of all this? It's not the Republicans who love their status quo. And if millions of citizens go without healthcare, they don't care.

Correction: Biden has been TALKING more like a liberal, lately. But keep in mind that he has not actually done anything but talk. And he knows he can blame his apparent inability to do anything on the republicans.
If you look at polling he's hit 63% approval, and that has a lot to do with how he's gotten vaccinations way ahead of schedule. He's been resetting the DOJ and the immigration system, which has become a huge crisis since Biden adopted trump's disastrous ICE. And Biden already set in motion reforms for the Secret Service, you probably didn't know this. Biden has been working to help settle the Israel and Palestinian conflict, and done well there. He's also setting up a transition from gas powered government vehicles to electric. That's just off the top of my head, so he's been busy not golfing.

So such talk is cheap and easy for him.
Irony.

For 30 years he's basically voted like a republican in the Senate. Because that's what kept the campaign money rolling in, that in turn kept him in office. He's a career political toady for those that paid his way. It's why the democratic party ran him. Because that's what they ALL are.
Times change, and people change with the times. Good for him and the USA for him seeing value in more progressive ideas. We needed a president who will take our challenges seriously.


I repeat: he has done NOTHING but talk.
Keep repeating it all you want. Facts tell us you're in error.

And since he knows he can't do much with the republicans choking the Senate, he can talk like a big fat liberal all he wants to, because he knows none of it is ever going to come to fruition. He can play Mr. "I'm for Joe Sixpack" and then blame the republicans for his having done absolutely nothing at all for Joe Sixpack his whole term as president. Just like he's done the last 30 years in the legislature.
You're letting your bias influence your posts too much. You offer no facts or argument here.

Biden has very well using his experience in the Senate to negotiate, and thus far he's doing a good job of it. His approval is over 15 points of trump's highest rate, which never hit 50%.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Yeah, but there's a difference between saying 'wokeness is wrong' and 'wokeness causes us to lose votes'.
I was trying to work out to which...or both...you were addressing your comments.
Oh, well, Carville is a Democrat strategist. That's his entire job - to figure out how to get more support for the Dems.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, well, Carville is a Democrat strategist. That's his entire job - to figure out how to get more support for the Dems.

Yup. Not saying I agree with his strategy...in a lot of ways I don't, but perhaps that's more to do with this only being part of his thoughts on the matter.
But yeah...I read it more as his thoughts on 'wokeness' as it pertains to voting habits.

If you start from the perspective that securing some level of votes in a place like Florida is both possible and worth prioritizing (which he seemed to suggest), then avoiding situations where the Conservatives can play the 'woke' card makes sense, regardless on your thoughts about social action, etc.

Whether it's actually POSSIBLE to avoid those situations, and whether prioritising that over other considerations is quite a different conversation.
 
Does it? I don't see how?

I tend to think most leaders have self serving agendas, so by nature, most leaders at least in this country are out of touch. They are out of touch in that most leaders live a completely different life than the 99%. They have different healthcare, different opportunities, different income, different values, etc. How can they possibly understand what should be common sense, when common sense only applies to the commoners? Classism, ageism, sexism, etc. all goes against Democracy.
 
While I think there is a problem with *preformative* wokeness, (appropriating movements or ideas or ideologues for superficial goals. I.e. Disney trying to make 'boss girl' characters because they assume that's what feminists want. Or Twitter collectives looking for the next hunt for a social black sheep who used the wrong word) I don't think the problem is what James is talking about. This sounds more like a problem of getting older. The kids are using newfangled words and I don't get them, so everyone else must not get them either.

This is also what led to a huge swaths of apathy towards being scientifically literate, because trying to develop new terminology to handle ideas with increasing complexity was interpreted as 'talking down to you' when it entered the greater public discourse. That coupled with natural language drift alienated older generations and also was capitalized by those who wanted to seem 'hip and with the modern flow.'

The problem, I think, is when people use terms without asking what they mean, and people who run across new terms don't bother to ask.

I like your thoughts behind this, was just curious as to why you feel we needed new terms? Isn't an apple still an apple no matter what you call it? I wonder sometimes, if "new terms" aren't merely for trying to create a new elite, that is in the know? I also wonder if that doesn't ultimately create even more of a divide, because the language we use to communicate has been altered and to your point, most people are making assumptions about its correct use?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I tend to think most leaders have self serving agendas, so by nature, most leaders at least in this country are out of touch. They are out of touch in that most leaders live a completely different life than the 99%. They have different healthcare, different opportunities, different income, different values, etc. How can they possibly understand what should be common sense, when common sense only applies to the commoners? Classism, ageism, sexism, etc. all goes against Democracy.
Yet it's the 'commoners' that uphold and maintain these forms of bias and oppression. Which the elite then see as justifying their elitism. The one percent cannot rule or exploit the other 99% without the permission and cooperation of the 99%. So the question is why do they allow it?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I tend to think most leaders have self serving agendas, so by nature, most leaders at least in this country are out of touch. They are out of touch in that most leaders live a completely different life than the 99%. They have different healthcare, different opportunities, different income, different values, etc. How can they possibly understand what should be common sense, when common sense only applies to the commoners? Classism, ageism, sexism, etc. all goes against Democracy.

My point right through this thread has been that Carville's comments in this article aren't about what he thinks is right or wrong.
They are about election strategy. Disagreeing with his take on election strategy is perfectly fine. But his point was around messaging...not action.
 
Yet it's the 'commoners' that uphold and maintain these forms of bias and oppression. Which the elite then see as justifying their elitism. The one percent cannot rule or exploit the other 99% without the permission and cooperation of the 99%. So the question is why do they allow it?
It is systemic, imho. They aren't getting permission as much as 1.) Dumbing them down. Education has been falling for years. The common educational system is about regurgitation of details, not about learning how to think. 2.) Forcing them to stay so busy, they don't have time to pay attention. Most people are so poor, they can't pay attention. Most people in this country, even the ones that seem to be doing ok, are so busy, trying to make it by, that they can't possibly pay attention to the overload of nonsense. 3.) Out and out lying to them and creating miscommunication. Let's face it all media is owned by a handful of conglomerates, the messaging from them is deliberate and misleading. Divide and conquer has become an art form in the media. Truth is truth, why are there so many different versions of it?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yet it's the 'commoners' that uphold and maintain these forms of bias and oppression. Which the elite then see as justifying their elitism. The one percent cannot rule or exploit the other 99% without the permission and cooperation of the 99%. So the question is why do they allow it?

It's a good question, and not an easy one to answer.
I would imagine aspirational goals are part of it, but it's not that simple. I've come from a working class background, and it's been clear at times that there are class-based differences (generalising massively) on how certain things are viewed as they relate to the sorts of bias you're alluding to.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It is systemic, imho. They aren't getting permission as much as 1.) Dumbing them down. Education has been falling for years. The common educational system is about regurgitation of details, not about learning how to think. 2.) Forcing them to stay so busy, they don't have time to pay attention. Most people are so poor, they can't pay attention. Most people in this country, even the ones that seem to be doing ok, are so busy, trying to make it by, that they can't possibly pay attention to the overload of nonsense. 3.) Out and out lying to them and creating miscommunication. Let's face it all media is owned by a handful of conglomerates, the messaging from them is deliberate and misleading. Divide and conquer has become an art form in the media. Truth is truth, why are there so many different versions of it?

(1) simply doesn't hold with what I've seen, in terms of being some form of collusion to dumb down the populace.
 
(1) simply doesn't hold with what I've seen, in terms of being some form of collusion to dumb down the populace.

I do appreciate your position, but I would say that elite educational systems in our country, from grade school through college are vastly different in what composes their curriculums. Why do most that can afford to do so, send their children to private schools?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I do appreciate your position, but I would say that elite educational systems in our country, from grade school through college are vastly different in what composes their curriculums. Why do most that can afford to do so, send their children to private schools?

Have to declare a couple of things here, just for transparency.

1) I'm an ex-teacher. That doesn't make my opinion 'right' by any means, just for visibility.

2) I'm Australian. Whilst I've read plenty about various education systems, including US, my opinions are coloured by my local experience.

Having said that, people don't send their kids to elite private schools for educational outcomes. At least, nor primarily. They do it to mark their kids...and quite often themselves...as members of the elite.

I don't see private schools as 'elite institutions' nor ones promoting free thought. Some do, no doubt...but so do some public schools, often with more creative use of resources.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
"Wokeness is a problem and we all know it"

“Wokeness is a problem,” he told me, “and we all know it.” According to Carville, Democrats are in power for now, but they also only narrowly defeated Donald Trump, “a world-historical buffoon,” and they lost congressional seats and failed to pick up state legislatures. The reason is simple: They’ve got a “messaging problem.”


I'm typically not a fan of Vox, but this is a good interview that brings home some salient points on the current state of Democratic politics and where it should move towards the future.
Define "wokeness". Is "wokeness" when a corporation makes a calculated decision to have a NB person in an add? Is it walmart selling BLM shirts made by Chinese 8 year olds?
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Define "wokeness". Is "wokeness" when a corporation makes a calculated decision to have a NB person in an add? Is it walmart selling BLM shirts made by Chinese 8 year olds?

Idk. "Wokeness" is a silly term. But the article still made some good points.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Idk. "Wokeness" is a silly term. But the article still made some good points.
The left is pretty bad at slogans. I can tell you that. But the whole article seemed to be "political correctness 2 electric boogaloo" argument. Though the capability of the Republican machine has to churn out bull**** to smear others is second to none. I'm not saying I would like the democrats to sink to that level but it would be nice to see the high road democrats take a real swing.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I'm not saying I would like the democrats to sink to that level but it would be nice to see the high road democrats take a real swing

They shouldn't have too you are correct there, but when all your opponent knows how to do is shovel ****, and you get used to getting **** on, it isn't going to stop by ignoring it.

"What am I supposed to do
If I want to talk about peace and understanding
But you only understand the language of the sword...
What if I want to tell you to leave me and my beloved ones in peace
But you only understand the language of the sword"?
Heilung - Krigsgaldr
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
They shouldn't have too you are correct there, but when all your opponent knows how to do is shovel ****, and you get used to getting **** on, it isn't going to stop by ignoring it.

"What am I supposed to do
If I want to talk about peace and understanding
But you only understand the language of the sword...
What if I want to tell you to leave me and my beloved ones in peace
But you only understand the language of the sword"?
Heilung - Krigsgaldr
Another problem is that the Democrats eat themselves worse than Republicans do. We have a small number of leftists in their ranks, AOC and Bernie to name a few but they often time kneecapped as bad by Democrats than by Republicans. AOC is spicy and its one of the reasons why she is such a prolific figure in today's discord. The reason she is so hated is because she is more than equally loved. A young, outspoken woman of color who is saying real **** occasionally has to be destroyed. It checks the box for every single thing the Republicans hate. Bernie was ostracized by the Democrats who has achieved incredible success more or less on his own. Republicans seem to be dismissive of him and Democrats are just waiting for him to die.

There is also the point that the vast majority of both Democrats and Republicans work for the same people. The battles they engage in often are surface level things that don't actually cut at the heart of the problem. They focus on abortion, tax rates that never held to their effective rate no matter who wins, the gays and how scary black people are.

But at the end of the day the majority of Democrat politicians work for the same masters and to a degree I don't think "want" to win a decisive victory against their opponents. Democrats get away with putting up the most mediocre half assed proposals and people because they know they can get away with being the lesser of 2 evils. If the republicans become inconsequential electorally they will have to play real ball. Though this last bit is just some speculation on my part.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Oh, well, Carville is a Democrat strategist. That's his entire job - to figure out how to get more support for the Dems.
Yes, he is exactly the kind of elitist political establishment figure that I recall you and others having nothing but anger and venom for in the past. Figures that now that he's making all the correct noises against those wretched SJWs, there's suddenly understanding with the establishment Democrats.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Idk. "Wokeness" is a silly term. But the article still made some good points.
I agree, it highlighted really well how little the American political establishment thinks of minorities, and how badly they still feel the need to pander to the old "Middle America" stereotype. I wonder if there are psychological issues involved in college-educated white liberals feeling so deeply, almost obsessively attached to the conservative rural white middle class in their political thoughts and strategies.
 
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