Woman Can't Say No After Start Of Sex

[fullyveiled muslimah]

To be clear I wasn't trying to make out that guys are just mindless or whatever. But to keep it real, it's hard to just stop particularly if one is right at the verge of orgasm. It's more like really not wanting to stop rather than totally not being able to. Again to keep it real, how many guys are really gonna stop at that point? If he's almost there you might as well let him finish, cuZ it's gonna be over soon anyway.

The point is there are a lot of situations that could happen. Women have got to start making better decisions and being smarter. Scenerio: A wild college party. About 20 guys maybe 15 girls. 3 girls are friends and come to the party together promising to watch out for one another (they don't). 1 girl gets so sloppy drunk she passes out in a room. That smistake number 1. Never get sloppy drunk no matter what. Now out of those 20 guys you might have 4 that wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity. The rest would if they think they could get away with it. Out of the remaining 16 you might get about 8 that would actually carry it through, while the others would only entertain the thought. Out of the 8 guys you have 1 that actually does it. He rapes her. Now, it's very clear that it was rape becuase she was so incapacitated that she couldn't consent. Was the guy wrong? Yes he was. But what was her responsibility here?

I would just plead with these women not to leave open the opportunities to be taken advantage of. One can't be too sure about what another person is capable of. Many women let their guards down too soon because he "seemed like a nice guy", and think it's not gonna happen to me, then get a rude awakening when it does.

 

[Djamila]

I understand your logic, FVM, and I agree that women have some responsibility in situations such as the one you described.

However, I would place the responsibility for the rape solely on the shoulders of the man. The woman who was raped has a responsibility to learn from her mistakes, but I don't believe she is in any way responsible for being raped. It doesn't matter what she does - unless she consents to sex, it's not her doing, and the responsibility rests entirely with the man.

 

[Hema]

I understand your logic, FVM, and I agree that women have some responsibility in situations such as the one you described.

However, I would place the responsibility for the rape solely on the shoulders of the man. The woman who was raped has a responsibility to learn from her mistakes, but I don't believe she is in any way responsible for being raped. It doesn't matter what she does - unless she consents to sex, it's not her doing, and the responsibility rests entirely with the man.

I agree with you. As for a man stopping during sex, there are some instances when he should stop, for e.g. if the woman is in pain. It isn't fair that he should finish pleasuring himself at the expense of the woman. If he HAS to finish, he can finish by himself. Sex is supposed to be about both partners' enjoyment.

 

[Djamila]

What do think of this, FVM. It's from the testimony of a Bosnian Muslim raped during the war by a Canadian general:

I recognized General Lewis MacKenzie, who approached me with his hand straight out, and addressed me “miss” (in English). In his right hand he held a red rosebud and he clumsily pressed it into my hands - I was terrified. As he was doing that, the two escort left the room and locked the door. General MacKenzie asked me what my name was, where I came from… I was silent and I pretended I could not understand anything he was saying. I just pulled my shoulders together and retreated, as General MacKenzie was saying, in English:” Miss, you can speak English very well and you understand everything. I am here to help you. That is in your interest. And love, led by interest, is the strongest love”. I knew what situation I was in. Imprisoned and separated from my nine-months old baby. Both, my baby and I, were helpless and imprisoned.

With a trashy Serbian music emanating from that radio in the background, the General admitted to his passion, while I defended my imprisoned infant boy. With my jaws clenched, with my heart shut…

It lasted, with shorter intervals, some twenty minutes.

The General visited me seven or eight more times. I asked him to intervene with the Chetniks to give me my baby back and to let us go. He would always say:” Tomorrow, tomorrow, be patient”.

MacKenzie did not use his fists to force me to have sex with him. He did not throw me down on my back. I laid down myself. He did not beat me or force me - but he had me as a helpless imprisoned woman that I was. As he played to be a gentleman bearing roses, the blinds in that room were down and the house was surrounded by the Chetnik guards.


Was that rape?

 

[Hema]

What do think of this, FVM. It's from the testimony of a Bosnian Muslim raped during the war by a Canadian general:

I recognized General Lewis MacKenzie, who approached me with his hand straight out, and addressed me “miss” (in English). In his right hand he held a red rosebud and he clumsily pressed it into my hands - I was terrified. As he was doing that, the two escort left the room and locked the door. General MacKenzie asked me what my name was, where I came from… I was silent and I pretended I could not understand anything he was saying. I just pulled my shoulders together and retreated, as General MacKenzie was saying, in English:” Miss, you can speak English very well and you understand everything. I am here to help you. That is in your interest. And love, led by interest, is the strongest love”. I knew what situation I was in. Imprisoned and separated from my nine-months old baby. Both, my baby and I, were helpless and imprisoned.

With a trashy Serbian music emanating from that radio in the background, the General admitted to his passion, while I defended my imprisoned infant boy. With my jaws clenched, with my heart shut…

It lasted, with shorter intervals, some twenty minutes.

The General visited me seven or eight more times. I asked him to intervene with the Chetniks to give me my baby back and to let us go. He would always say:” Tomorrow, tomorrow, be patient”.

MacKenzie did not use his fists to force me to have sex with him. He did not throw me down on my back. I laid down myself. He did not beat me or force me - but he had me as a helpless imprisoned woman that I was. As he played to be a gentleman bearing roses, the blinds in that room were down and the house was surrounded by the Chetnik guards.


Was that rape?

Well I think it was rape because he was exploiting a woman in a helpless situation. She might not have resisted physically but in her heart she knew that she was being violated. I assume she didn't resist because she didn't want to be hurt more that she already was. Plus, she had an innocent baby with her. The man who did that is sick. No wait. "Sick" is an understatement.

 

[evearael]

Yes, that was rape, Djamila. A rapist is always responsible for their actions. Period. Of the cases that are close to me, girls and women from a second grader to a twenty-one year old were sexually assaulted, molested and/or raped. The perpetrator preyed on the naivety and helplessness of the younger ones and they were often acquainted with and sometimes related to their victims. In these cases the child was terrified and simply didn't know what to do because there was no open dialog with their parents regarding anything of that nature. In the case of the twenty-one year old, she got drunk with her boyfriend, he raped her and abandoned her in a parking lot in the middle of the night. One could say that getting drunk with an abusive boyfriend was foolish, though her actions become much clearer in context: she had been repeated abused by boyfriends since her early teen years and her self-worth was nonexistent. This sort of treatment was all she knew... and all she expected.

It is essential that parents work to instill a child's self-worth and respect from day one. It is essential that parents not brush off sudden behavior changes as 'just a phase.' Most of the younger ones who were harmed went through all sorts of mood and behavior changes as well as depression. It is essential that the parents earn the child's trust and keep an open dialog with them from a very early age. A five year old will not automatically know what to do if he or she is harmed... they are likely to be confused and scared... as well as fearful of being punished for their ordeal. The parents need to let the child know that their body belongs to them and that no one else has a right to it. This won't solve every problem, but it will certainly help. So many parents fall in to the trap of thinking it would never happen to their child, so they don't arm their children with the knowledge of what to do if, God forbid, the child ever finds themselves in that situation. (Parents also need to take care to nurture empathy and respect of others to help prevent their children from turning into predators...)

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I would say it was more of an exploitation than a flat out rape which makes it even worse. To be in a situation where you feel you must give in or else, is pretty bad. It can leave a bigger scar than some stranger just forcing you.

When I say a woman has to take care of herself and make good decisions I am not relieving the offending male of his act. We all know that it shouldn't happen but the reality is that it does, and it happens alot. Therefore, this is why I am stressing the woman's part in trying to safeguard herself. All I'm saying is when you open the door for trouble it will more then welcome itself in. For a man not to take advantage of a women in a certain situation takes a number of things not the least of which is self-control. Whether or not a man takes these advantages depends on how he views women, peer pressure, level of empathy for others, is he going to get caught, if so will there be stiff punishments. etc etc. All these things play a part. It's cool to say that well men should just control themselves no matter what, but that might not be the smartest thing. Why take chances with people who may not be able to control themselves after a cetain point or in a certain type of environment? That being said, if a guy knows that his weakness is passed out drunk young women, maybe he shouldn't attend parties where that may be likely. Or at least extricate himself fromt he scene when it goes that way. For example if all of us here at RF came together to meet each other at my house. I have my valued possessions out where everyone can get them and I leave the room. When I come back, my possessions are gone. There are a couple of problems with that. Firstly, I don't know you all. We've been words on a screen to each other and thats about it. I have no idea what your vices are, weaknesses, what you are capable of. Perhaps there is a thief among you. I'd like to think the best of everyone but that's just not reality. The fact that I had my valuables in plain sight was a temptation on the thief. Being a thief is wrong and stealing my stuff is wrong, but why did I open the opportunity?

There is nothing better than prevention or trying to prevent a situation from occuring the best you can. When the precautions are taken, it erases the grey areas of a situation and makes it a clear cut case of right and wrong. Back to the scenario, if my things had been tucked away and then got stolen, well then the lines are clear and there is no lesson for me to learn the harsh reality of.

I hope this isn't coming off as though I blame the victim for the crimes, I'm just saying don't test the waters. There are alot of different situations that come about daily, and almost no two are identical. I can say that the guy you met an hour ago at the club don't love you. He's not even gonna say goodbye afterwards, and the fact that he did you in the nasty men's bathroom should've let you know how he felt about you...........piece of booty.

To a man sex is just that...sex and nothing else. The only way it becomes different for the man is when he loves you and cares for you. When he cares about you, you'll find that he is making love to you rather than just banging you because you're available. Only after feelings come into play will you find the consideration of feelings even during intercourse. Then you find the type of concern for if the sex is not pleasurable, or if you're hurting, or whether you climax or not. It is us women who attach feelings and thought to sex more immediately. We can't help that. Its not a fault its the way we are, well most of us anyway. The guy you're having a one night stand with could care less.

All of what I am saying is in response to the situations posed in the OP. This thought pattern I'm sharing right now does not go across the board. My comments so far are purely depending on the specific types of circumstances. One problem in cases like these, where there are grey areas is that women like to control every aspect of the sex but can't. Once a woman is in a vulnarable position.....i mean that figuratively and physically....it's pretty much a done deal. If this guy wants to pin you down, hit you, slap you, or verbally degrade you, you are subjected to it until he stops. Think well before just sleeping with someone and placing yourself in such a state. Women can only control aspects of sexual intercourse and have a true say when a man cares for her. Then he is willing to listen and take her dislikes/likes, comforts/discomforts into careful consideration.

 

[XAAX]

Anyone, not just women, should be able to withdraw their consent after the start of sex. However, I do not believe that the sex that occurred prior to their change of heart could, or should be considered rape, as it was, up until that point, consentual.

This is my stance as well. Up until the point where someone wants it to stop it is not rape. Im a guy and i have stopped in the middle of sex. Just because you start to have sex with someone doesn't mean you can't change your mind. Here lies the problem with that and why i think the law went as it did. How often do we have sex with others around? How can we prove that it wasn't consentual all the way. Very gray area there. I think the message they wanted to convey was know the people you choose to have sex with. Not sure, just an opinion. My belief on the subject, having known a few rape victims, is that rapest should be castrated. At least the repeat offenders. Problem solved.

 

[Hema]

rapest should be castrated

:clap

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

My belief on the subject, having known a few rape victims, is that rapest should be castrated. At least the repeat offenders. Problem solved.

This is the stance of Islam as well. It's done on the first offence when it is proven to have been rape. This is one reason why I am stressing the responsibilities of all parties involved. Grey areas should be removed so that there is no question, because the penalty is so severe.

Im a guy and i have stopped in the middle of sex.

You're also a guy that apparently has scruples. It may or may not surprise you who doesn't have any scruples on this particular subject. These kinds of rapists aren't the monster types. These are the guys people are cool with, and they are otherwise good people. It doesn't surprise me anymore what people are capable of.

Just because you start to have sex with someone doesn't mean you can't change your mind.

Of course. I agree. But then it all goes back to whether or not the guy even cares that she wants to stop.....apparently he doesn't.

 

[Fluffy]

To be clear I wasn't trying to make out that guys are just mindless or whatever. But to keep it real, it's hard to just stop particularly if one is right at the verge of orgasm. It's more like really not wanting to stop rather than totally not being able to. Again to keep it real, how many guys are really gonna stop at that point? If he's almost there you might as well let him finish, cuZ it's gonna be over soon anyway.

Well I suppose I am hardly qualified to talk about what is and is not possible during sex but I sure as hell hope I would be able to stop if asked to. Obviously there would need to be the necessary amount of time to overcome surprise and gain understanding of the request but it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.

To a man sex is just that...sex and nothing else. The only way it becomes different for the man is when he loves you and cares for you. When he cares about you, you'll find that he is making love to you rather than just banging you because you're available. Only after feelings come into play will you find the consideration of feelings even during intercourse. Then you find the type of concern for if the sex is not pleasurable, or if you're hurting, or whether you climax or not. It is us women who attach feelings and thought to sex more immediately. We can't help that. Its not a fault its the way we are, well most of us anyway. The guy you're having a one night stand with could care less.

I'm not sure if this is true though. Both women and men desire sex for just pleasure no strings attached. However, this doesn't mean that either sex cares nothing for the person they have sex with even if it is just casual. They should care about them to the extent of treating them as a fellow human being and the includes stopping when being asked. I agree that you do get rapists and the majority of rapists are men but I don't think that the majority of men are utterly unfeeling towards those they have casual sex with. They just don't feel love but then love is not required to treat your fellow man properly.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I wasn't talking about what should be I'm talking about what is.