Woman shot and killed for refusing to give man her phone number

[MysticSang'ha]

Mass shooting kills mother of three, wounds five others - Fox 2 News Headlines

Elliot Rodgers was but one example of the entitlement culture where if a man wants sex, he should just be able to get it. And if he doesn't get it, somehow somewhere it's a woman's fault for not thinking of ways to give it to him so he doesn't kill people.

Yet...many contrarians felt it necessary to denounce rape culture and misogyny - and protest against the very existence of misogyny - and say that it's all about mental illness and nothing more.

This is another example of a woman being a target, expected to be available, and when it's apparent she is not, becomes a target of violence.

Then here comes the naysayers:
- But what about the other people he shot? It isn't misogyny. It's just some dude who isn't mentally healthy.
- Why didn't she just give him a fake phone number?

Which stands paradoxically with the complaint about women "beating around the bush" about rejection. That women should just be straight about saying "no" to someone asking for a phone number. That women should just be honest. I hear it all the time in various situations, "Why don't you just come up to me and talk to me about it if you have a problem?"

That's a great question. Why don't women just come up to them and just be straight? What kind of hoops do women feel the need to jump through to avoid becoming a target? And in this instance, why don't women just be honest and just say "no" instead of smiling, "leading men on", lying about having a boyfriend even when in the story the fiancee was physically there?

It's because violence against women remains an epidemic. It's why women are given the kind of advice for staying safe walking down the street where men are not given the same advice. It's why women are given advice about predators at frat parties where men are not given advice in staying safe from predators at frat parties. And it's why women are told to give fake phone numbers to avoid the possibility of being a target by a potential stalker or killer. Men are not given this advice for avoiding being a target by a possible crazed ex-lover who will boil your kid's pet rabbit.

I remember a time when I was 15 years old, and I was at the movies with a couple of friends. I saw a group of skinheads approach me, and one recognized me from a parade we both were a part in. He started discussing how we both should get together for a date. With several of his friends around him looking at me waiting for an answer, and even though I was with 2 friends, I was nervous about what might happen if I rejected him. I began telling him how busy I was, and he continued pressing me by saying that if I was interested, that I would find a way to make time for him.

He told me to give him my phone number....that's right, he didn't ask, he told me to give it to him....and that's when I pulled the fake phone number tactic. It worked. He walked away with his friends saying he was going to give me a call. And for the moment, I felt safer. But I wound up not attending the movie theatre again for fear of being discovered that I lied to him and becoming a target.

I rearranged a part of my social life out of fear.

This is not a rare occurrence. This is part of the culture. This story, my story, and other women's stories are not a rare statistic cherry-picked for supporting a victim mentality. This is an epidemic of violence against women where the burden of responsibility is placed squarely on women to ward off predatory behavior, and where women are to be blamed for violence against them, at least considered for how she provoked it.

#yesallwomen

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This news story is certainly a tragedy. However, it seems a bit disingenuous to blame this on entitlement over mental illness. Entitlement doesn't make mentally healthy people murder other people.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

This news story is certainly a tragedy. However, it seems a bit disingenuous to blame this on entitlement over mental illness. Entitlement doesn't make mentally healthy people murder other people.

Right. Because things like this are never complex. That one feels either entitled OR is suffering from a mental illness. Nice try.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Right. Because things like this are never complex. That one feels either entitled OR is suffering from a mental illness. Nice try.

I'm quite sure everything tends to be more complex than people try to paint them. Regardless of whether things have multiple and complex factors, we can intelligently rate the relative weight of the various factors. To attempt to paint some type of societal "entitlement" as an equally relevant factor to the man's mental problems in relation to his crime is the disingenuous part. For example, if this man had received appropriate treatment for his mental issues, it is highly unlikely that he would have murdered multiple people out of a sense of "entitlement."

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Are you suggesting that entitlement mentality doesn't exist?

Edit to add: is this a part of feminist commentary that you reject? I'm trying to find the reasoning behind being disingenuous connecting entitlement mentality with violence against women that has been documented. It isn't disingenuous at all, and points out a foundational and problematic issue in the assumption that women must be accessible and should be expected to remain easily accessible sexually.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Are you suggesting that entitlement mentality doesn't exist?

Nope, I'm suggesting that it is disingenuous to use as an example of entitlement an extreme situation for the purposes of eliciting a strong emotional response, when the said example isn't primarily caused by a sense of entitlement, but rather, a severe mental imbalance. It's a bait-and-switch, and comes off as intellectually dishonest, and thus, to me counterproductive and rhetorical.

Edit to add: is this a part of feminist commentary that you reject?

This is an example of a part of a current subset of feminist commentary I reject, which is a narrative style that seems primarily focused on rhetorical language, hyperbole, reactionism, and creating an us-vs-them mentality regarding feminism. It seems to be more about being "right", expressing outrage, and dictating thought, than it is on sincerely attempting to educate, provide awareness, and attempt to formulate rational and productive solutions.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I'm surprised neither of you commented on the involvement of alcohol in this situation. Being 2am at a bar, I'd be willing to make a fair wager that this is a man with a propensity for violence who, under the influence of alcohol, met his full capacity to inflict such violence.

 

[Godobeyer]

very sad story

 

[Alceste]

OK, folks who are not feminists, out with you. You know who you are. This is a purple DIR.

To the OP, what a tragedy this is. I'm so sorry for her kids, fiance and family. I completely agree with your observation that male sexual entitlement played a part in this shooting, as it did for that other nutcase recently who posted a whole Youtube diatribe about how his killing spree was to punish women for not having sex with him and the men who get to have sex with them. Obviously, in both cases, mental illness ALSO played a part, but speaking from experience with a mentally ill father, a person can have some really stupid ideas about gender and sex quite independently of their mental illness. Some forms of mental illness may establish that you are capable of killing, but really stupid attitudes about gender and sex can also establish who you kill and how sometimes. This is clearly one of those times, IMO.

 

[Riverwolf]

... the said example isn't primarily caused by a sense of entitlement, but rather, a severe mental imbalance.

The shooter hasn't been identified in this article, and otherwise sane people have committed murders in the past (particularly if drunk). Therefore, I ask how you know that this is a case of a mentally ill person?

OK, folks who are not feminists, out with you. You know who you are. This is a purple DIR.

To the OP, what a tragedy this is. I'm so sorry for her kids, fiance and family. I completely agree with your observation that male sexual entitlement played a part in this shooting, as it did for that other nutcase recently who posted a whole Youtube diatribe about how his killing spree was to punish women for not having sex with him and the men who get to have sex with them. Obviously, in both cases, mental illness ALSO played a part, but speaking from experience with a mentally ill father, a person can have some really stupid ideas about gender and sex quite independently of their mental illness. Some forms of mental illness may establish that you are capable of killing, but really stupid attitudes about gender and sex can also establish who you kill and how sometimes. This is clearly one of those times, IMO.

IOW, mental illness may have been the immediate reason, but the sense of entitlement is the underlying reason.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

The shooter hasn't been identified in this article, and otherwise sane people have committed murders in the past (particularly if drunk). Therefore, I ask how you know that this is a case of a mentally ill person?



IOW, mental illness may have been the immediate reason, but the sense of entitlement is the underlying reason.

He's guessing. There is no indication in the article that the man suffered from mental illness. Although one could easily argue that the atrocity itself is evidence of such. The fact that alcohol was involved just complicates the matter. If a man was sober and did this, I would actually be surprised if there wasn't some kind of emotional disorder going on. On the other hand, alcohol does tend to reveal latent emotional issues. In any case, I don't see mental/emotional illness as an excuse for non-defensive killing, so it doesn't make a difference to me.

The vast majority of men would not behave this way, even when drunk. In addition, I haven't seen anyone try to defend the man for his actions, and I doubt many would, so I don't really see this as a cultural issue per se. However, we are a product of our upbringing, and culture influences that, no doubt.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Nope, I'm suggesting that it is disingenuous to use as an example of entitlement an extreme situation for the purposes of eliciting a strong emotional response, when the said example isn't primarily caused by a sense of entitlement, but rather, a severe mental imbalance. It's a bait-and-switch, and comes off as intellectually dishonest, and thus, to me counterproductive and rhetorical.

I think you're projecting. To assume that the reason why this man killed a woman for not giving him her number is mental illness is as disingenuous as suggesting that people who are beheaded for apostasy are only done by people who are mentally ill as well. Seriously...again, nice try.

This is an example of a part of a current subset of feminist commentary I reject, which is a narrative style that seems primarily focused on rhetorical language, hyperbole, reactionism, and creating an us-vs-them mentality regarding feminism. It seems to be more about being "right", expressing outrage, and dictating thought, than it is on sincerely attempting to educate, provide awareness, and attempt to formulate rational and productive solutions.

So so wrong, KT. I'm involved in several education outreach programs about self-defense for women, alliances against rape culture, working with various law enforcement against trafficking that target women and children (because it's a big problem in St. Louis), and I've been invited to speak at municipality council meetings on the problem of violence against women, the roots of the problems, and roundtable discussions on solutions to the problems.

You're speaking to an activist. The "hyperbole" doesn't exist. I'm speaking from experience as an activist and volunteer and I'm getting my hands dirty in working with the very people who also want to solve the problems, too.

And believe me when I say this...the problem is much worse in neighborhoods that have highly marginalized demographics. Since being involved and being at the scenes of various attacks, working with crisis centers, domestic violence shelters, etc...the rates have been underrepresented, to be honest.

The mentality behind justifying violence against women is simply because they can. The abusers will take and take and take until they're stopped from an outside force. No psychotic disorder is necessary. The empty rhetoric is coming from your posts on this issue of violence against women, and denial is present that entitlement is not an underlying and foundational assumption in who are targeted and the reasons why.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

OK, folks who are not feminists, out with you. You know who you are. This is a purple DIR.

I'm sure the folks taking issue with the story will identify as feminists. Probably the "right" kind of feminists, in their minds, though. You know, the feminists that aren't so mean and nasty. Because "entitlement" is such a mean thing to say. Like "privilege."

To the OP, what a tragedy this is. I'm so sorry for her kids, fiance and family. I completely agree with your observation that male sexual entitlement played a part in this shooting, as it did for that other nutcase recently who posted a whole Youtube diatribe about how his killing spree was to punish women for not having sex with him and the men who get to have sex with them. Obviously, in both cases, mental illness ALSO played a part, but speaking from experience with a mentally ill father, a person can have some really stupid ideas about gender and sex quite independently of their mental illness. Some forms of mental illness may establish that you are capable of killing, but really stupid attitudes about gender and sex can also establish who you kill and how sometimes. This is clearly one of those times, IMO.

Indeed. And story after story after story with the #yesallwomen campaign shows how real this is to many women. It's also supported by the #whyistayed, which showed the world why it's extremely dangerous to leave abusive relationships when there is partner violence. It isn't weakness, it's the realization that leaving an abusive relationship tends to result in more assaults and attempted murder without a plan. The numbers don't lie.

I'll have to look it up, but I read a highly informative article about how women who don't leave abusive marriages and result in the death of one or more of the children at the hands of the husbands will also be charged with a felony in "failure to protect" and will sometimes result in sentences that are just as long if not longer than the husband who murdered the child.

Mental illness? I'm sure there are many cases where people have been undiagnosed. But the resulting court decisions in convictions and sentencing shows the assumption that women are expected to show sacrifice and risk in assault/battery, sexual assault, and murder/attempted murder cases. This isn't hyperbole, either. Men who "failed to protect" children were incarcerated at 4% of the rate women who were convicted of the same crime, and given much lighter sentences.

The relevance? Violence is to be expected toward women, and women are assumed to live with it for the safety and protection of the rest of the family at her expense. If she doesn't, she will be exposed, ignored, or punished by the legal establishments. To tie this back with the OP, women are expected to give a fake phone number because of the worry that she will be harassed or targeted. Being up front with someone asking for a phone number, and replying with a "no", and this happens? Or a woman is stalked? Or harassed? Or attacked? To NOT consider this and other reports of women being attacked as concerning....part and parcel of a society that would rather look the other way.

 

[Riverwolf]

The vast majority of men would not behave this way, even when drunk. In addition, I haven't seen anyone try to defend the man for his actions, and I doubt many would, so I don't really see this as a cultural issue per se. However, we are a product of our upbringing, and culture influences that, no doubt.

The vast majority of men in our culture would not kill over this sort of thing, that is true. The majority probably wouldn't even physically assault for this, at least in the region I live in.

However, the cultural problem of sex-entitlement is a very, very real problem, probably in the vast majority of men. In most instances, it manifests not as assault, but as pressure. Pressuring a partner to perform an unwanted sexual act, for example. The idea that sex should be regarded as a reward by default, such that a woman who doesn't give sex for what a guy does for her is demeaned, is another part of it.

What Mystic says actually brings something up. I think a lot of people are severely uncomfortable with the notion that perhaps our culture isn't as egalitarian and "progressed" as we've been told, and continue to tell ourselves.

 

[Apple Sugar]

Why is this in Feminist only section?

 

[Godobeyer]

Why is this in Feminist only section?

maybe it's , because that woman killed by man ?

 

[Alceste]

Why is this in Feminist only section?

Because Mystic wants to talk about it with other feminists. You are welcome to start another thread on the same topic in general discussion or debate if you like. We'll probably even participate. It's just that this specific thread is for a discussion of the incident between feminists.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm sure the folks taking issue with the story will identify as feminists. Probably the "right" kind of feminists, in their minds, though. You know, the feminists that aren't so mean and nasty. Because "entitlement" is such a mean thing to say. Like "privilege."

I will play Devil's Advocate for a moment. As a feminist myself (though not really an activist, mind, at least not the way you are), I am VERY uncomfortable with using extreme examples like this as ammunition for activism, especially so soon afterwards. Not only does it seem, to me, opportunistic, but it is an extreme example of our sex-entitled culture that, at least in my experience, isn't an accurate representation of the bulk of its manifestations. You're an activist, however, so I do trust that you aren't using this event as an example lightly, since you have far more experience than I do.

That said, I don't recall incidents like this to be so widely reported in the past, until recently. Apparently, there was a very similar situation elsewhere, where a woman was killed for saying 'no'. I think as more and more of events like these get reported, the problem's true potential and manifestation will come to light.

Indeed. And story after story after story with the #yesallwomen campaign shows how real this is to many women. It's also supported by the #whyistayed, which showed the world why it's extremely dangerous to leave abusive relationships when there is partner violence. It isn't weakness, it's the realization that leaving an abusive relationship tends to result in more assaults and attempted murder without a plan. The numbers don't lie.

I'll have to look it up, but I read a highly informative article about how women who don't leave abusive marriages and result in the death of one or more of the children at the hands of the husbands will also be charged with a felony in "failure to protect" and will sometimes result in sentences that are just as long if not longer than the husband who murdered the child.

Mental illness? I'm sure there are many cases where people have been undiagnosed. But the resulting court decisions in convictions and sentencing shows the assumption that women are expected to show sacrifice and risk in assault/battery, sexual assault, and murder/attempted murder cases. This isn't hyperbole, either. Men who "failed to protect" children were incarcerated at 4% of the rate women who were convicted of the same crime, and given much lighter sentences.

The relevance? Violence is to be expected toward women, and women are assumed to live with it for the safety and protection of the rest of the family at her expense. If she doesn't, she will be exposed, ignored, or punished by the legal establishments. To tie this back with the OP, women are expected to give a fake phone number because of the worry that she will be harassed or targeted. Being up front with someone asking for a phone number, and replying with a "no", and this happens? Or a woman is stalked? Or harassed? Or attacked? To NOT consider this and other reports of women being attacked as concerning....part and parcel of a society that would rather look the other way.

Very well said. This is a very, very scary issue. My own alarmist mind actually wants to tell me it's even worse than that, such that there isn't just a risk to me and Moonwater, but that she WILL be killed for these reasons. Because of the kinds of people we choose to associate with, and the establishments we frequent, we're in a place where death by car accident is still far more likely, but logic isn't exactly effective at warding away strong feelings of fear. I really want to crawl under a rock and pretend this isn't an issue, or at least leave for a country where it isn't. IOW, I want to run away from it.

Because I am an alarmist, I have to be careful about what I expose myself to in terms of current events. I don't need to be evaluated to know that I'm at risk to develop clinical paranoia. But in this issue, I actually do have the power to do things about it. To keep my emotions in check, I generally prefer to focus on where things are being done right, and how to do things right. After all, "don't do this" is only half of the lesson, completely useless without the other half: "do this instead." I'm a believer that in addition to the self-defense methods taught to women (which men should be made more aware of, since another aspect of our rape culture is that men being raped, or otherwise sexually assaulted/harassed, is severely downplayed), I also believe that people should be taught how not to rape, and how to be respectful.

Sex is a basic drive, as basic as hunger and thirst, and so instead of just "expecting" that men are hypersexual beasts, I strongly believe that people of both genders can and should be taught how to keep these drives from inadvertently harming other people. After all, I'd wager that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults aren't recognized as such by either the victim or the perpetrator.

 

[Godobeyer]

OK, folks who are not feminists, out with you. You know who you are. This is a purple DIR.

I have a pass , my mother is female , and my futur partner wife is female .

 

[Alceste]

maybe it's , because that woman killed by man ?

Nah, it's because this incident is a good example of violence against women stemming from a culture of male sexual entitlement. If he'd accidentally hit her with his car while drunk driving, shot her while robbing a gas station, etc. it wouldn't be worth talking about here.