Woman shot and killed for refusing to give man her phone number

[Godobeyer]

Sorry ladies .

 

[Riverwolf]

I have a pass , my mother is female , and my futur partner wife is female .

That doesn't count. Do you identify as a feminist, insofar that you believe in full social, political, and economic gender equality? Keep in mind "equality" doesn't mean "no differences".

I'm a man, BTW. Men are perfectly capable of being feminists.

 

[Alceste]

I have a pass , my mother is female , and my futur partner wife is female .

You're out. If you want to start a thread in general discussion about your theory that having a woman for a mother and hoping to have another as a lover in the future makes you a feminist, I'll participate.

In the mean time, here's the basics:

Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read that and if you still think you're a feminist, power to you!

 

[Apple Sugar]

Because Mystic wants to talk about it with other feminists. You are welcome to start another thread on the same topic in general discussion or debate if you like. We'll probably even participate. It's just that this specific thread is for a discussion of the incident between feminists.

That explains it. I like the idea of a women's only forum anyway.
Thanks for explaining.


I don't think this guy shot her for any other reason than he's an ahole with a gun and no conscience. I wonder how many other bodies he has on his gun or in his history that he hasn't been arrested for?
I'd venture to say someone this quick to go lethal, this shooting isn't a first time.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

However, the cultural problem of sex-entitlement is a very, very real problem, probably in the vast majority of men. In most instances, it manifests not as assault, but as pressure. Pressuring a partner to perform an unwanted sexual act, for example. The idea that sex should be regarded as a reward by default, such that a woman who doesn't give sex for what a guy does for her is demeaned, is another part of it.

I doubt it's the "vast majority" of men, but this particular issue does seem to be prevalent.

What Mystic says actually brings something up. I think a lot of people are severely uncomfortable with the notion that perhaps our culture isn't as egalitarian and "progressed" as we've been told, and continue to tell ourselves.

The issue I see is that males are taught from a young age that the only love they should receive is through sex with a female. It's a very damaging thing, but I don't see it being addressed.

 

[Godobeyer]

You're out. If you want to start a thread in general discussion about your theory that having a woman for a mother and hoping to have another as a lover in the future makes you a feminist, I'll participate.

In the mean time, here's the basics:

Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read that and if you still think you're a feminist, power to you!

how you suppose to participate !!! to be my mother it's impossible or to be my wife that may possible

I am just kiding about pass comment , i am not feminist .

I am out

 

[Alceste]

I will play Devil's Advocate for a moment. As a feminist myself (though not really an activist, mind, at least not the way you are), I am VERY uncomfortable with using extreme examples like this as ammunition for activism, especially so soon afterwards. Not only does it seem, to me, opportunistic, but it is an extreme example of our sex-entitled culture that, at least in my experience, isn't an accurate representation of the bulk of its manifestations. You're an activist, however, so I do trust that you aren't using this event as an example lightly, since you have far more experience than I do.

Thing is though, this is not "extreme". Violence by men who feel sexually entitled to women is really, really common. Over 10 % of women in my country (including me, very briefly and a long time ago) have been stalked in a way that made them fear for their life. Half of all female murder victims are killed by a current or past romantic partner. For men, that statistic drops to 7%.

The Facts About Violence Against Women | Canadianwomen.org

Saying that specifically addressing any single murder of a woman by a man who feels entitled to her body and therefore her life - an event that happens once every 6 days in Canada - is some kind of histrionic misrepresentation of the real issues, kind of guts our whole deal here.

I feel like you'd prefer we didn't mention the very things we're actually concerned about: That once every six days or so, a Canadian woman is murdered by her current or former male partner and the other stats referenced above. I'm way more concerned about these issues than I am about Miley Cyrus's music videos or what female sprites wear in video games. In fact, those issues seem incredibly trivial in comparison.

We can never grow as human beings if we turn our heads away from that which disturbs us. It's tempting to blame those who gently turn your head in a particular direction for the emotional impact of whatever you see there, but worthwhile to keep in mind that all we're doing, as feminists, is saying "Hey, look at that!" Assuming the thing you're looking at is actually happening, the discomfort you feel is not the result of a flaw or a shortcoming of whoever happened to suggest you look at it.

(This is all meant in perfect respect, and probably bringing in recollections of numerous previous encounters with others who also argued against using "extreme" examples of violence against women to critique rape culture).

Very well said. This is a very, very scary issue. My own alarmist mind actually wants to tell me it's even worse than that, such that there isn't just a risk to me and Moonwater, but that she WILL be killed for these reasons. Because of the kinds of people we choose to associate with, and the establishments we frequent, we're in a place where death by car accident is still far more likely, but logic isn't exactly effective at warding away strong feelings of fear. I really want to crawl under a rock and pretend this isn't an issue, or at least leave for a country where it isn't. IOW, I want to run away from it.

Because I am an alarmist, I have to be careful about what I expose myself to in terms of current events. I don't need to be evaluated to know that I'm at risk to develop clinical paranoia. But in this issue, I actually do have the power to do things about it. To keep my emotions in check, I generally prefer to focus on where things are being done right, and how to do things right. After all, "don't do this" is only half of the lesson, completely useless without the other half: "do this instead." I'm a believer that in addition to the self-defense methods taught to women (which men should be made more aware of, since another aspect of our rape culture is that men being raped, or otherwise sexually assaulted/harassed, is severely downplayed), I also believe that people should be taught how not to rape, and how to be respectful.

That's understandable. OTOH, the biggest risk to Moonwater's personal safety, by a huge margin (statistically), is her partner, and her partner is you, so you can totally relax. Yeah, she'll probably get hit on by weirdos, maybe stalked a little from time to time, carry her keys like a weapon out of habit on the way from the car to the door (if you live in a city), but as far as the statistics are concerned, chances are that if you don't hurt her, no-one will.

Sex is a basic drive, as basic as hunger and thirst, and so instead of just "expecting" that men are hypersexual beasts, I strongly believe that people of both genders can and should be taught how to keep these drives from inadvertently harming other people. After all, I'd wager that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults aren't recognized as such by either the victim or the perpetrator.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "vast majority" (it's pretty obvious when someone is intentionally ignoring your boundaries, spoken or unspoken), but studies have shown that those who subscribe to rape myths are much more likely to either commit or be victims of sexual assault, and also much less likely to recognize it as a sexual assault.

 

[Alceste]

how you suppose to participate !!! to be my mother it's impossible or to be my wife that may possible

I am just kiding about pass comment , i am not feminist .

I am out

Thank you for respecting the spirit of this DIR. Please feel free to lurk to your heart's content. If you see anything you want to talk about in an open forum, start a thread on general discussion or debate and I will meet you there.

 

[dust1n]

This news story is certainly a tragedy. However, it seems a bit disingenuous to blame this on entitlement over mental illness. Entitlement doesn't make mentally healthy people murder other people.

I think you're projecting. To assume that the reason why this man killed a woman for not giving him her number is mental illness is as disingenuous as suggesting that people who are beheaded for apostasy are only done by people who are mentally ill as well. Seriously...again, nice try.

That's what I was thinking. If you label those who murder people as mentally ill, simply because a murder has been done, then it really ceases to be meaningful to call anyone killer mentally ill.

Now, I'm not sure the extent in which entitlement plays a role over other factors, or how would even go about measuring, but it does seem disingenuous to claim mental illness a leading cause of murder when everyone who murders is considered mentally ill.

 

[dust1n]

By the way, I will going out on a date tonight, and I do not plan on getting mad if rejected, even if I am rejected for nonsense reasons, and I feel like my date can do whatever she very much well pleases.


It's a real simple philosophy, but it works.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I will play Devil's Advocate for a moment. As a feminist myself (though not really an activist, mind, at least not the way you are), I am VERY uncomfortable with using extreme examples like this as ammunition for activism, especially so soon afterwards. Not only does it seem, to me, opportunistic, but it is an extreme example of our sex-entitled culture that, at least in my experience, isn't an accurate representation of the bulk of its manifestations. You're an activist, however, so I do trust that you aren't using this event as an example lightly, since you have far more experience than I do.

I will answer the Devil's Advocate for a moment.

On the spectrum of sex-entitlement behavior, this is on the extreme end of knee-jerk reactions stemming from the expectation of accessibility. Stranger killing woman for saying "no." Of course it's uncomfortable to listen to this, then a feminist like myself brings this up as an example of the entitlement mentality following its logical conclusion. Here's the thing...every example that is brought up on every part of the spectrum has been denied by the critics or the apologists.

- "Wifely duties" was a thread here at RF just a few years ago, with some folks still suggesting that a man has a right to sex from his wife. (there's an assumption here)
- Risk assessment rhetoric by critics of rape culture first deny that the majority of sexual assaults occur in close relationships, then suggest that women looking behind their backs and over their drinks at frat parties is smart...because some dudes can't be trusted to stop themselves. (there's another assumption here)
- I along with numerous other females have been advised when dealing with a persistent guy looking for a phone number to give him a fake number. The reason? "You never know what he might do if he's rejected." (another assumption)

Are feminists saying this? Are feminists thinking that the mistrust of men is a good thing? No...the majority of this kind of advice to women about mistrusting men in general? Or who like to point out how it's "common sense" about human biology and the nature of men and masculinity...Are critics of feminism.

What I and other feminists point toward is the culture in place that demands men to look at dating as conquests, to act as hunters, to play the numbers rather than make connections with living breathing other human beings. It's a de-humanizing culture of both men and women. Men being ragged penis-beasts, and women being targets of all these penises who can't help themselves.

That said, I don't recall incidents like this to be so widely reported in the past, until recently. Apparently, there was a very similar situation elsewhere, where a woman was killed for saying 'no'. I think as more and more of events like these get reported, the problem's true potential and manifestation will come to light.

I hope so.

Very well said. This is a very, very scary issue. My own alarmist mind actually wants to tell me it's even worse than that, such that there isn't just a risk to me and Moonwater, but that she WILL be killed for these reasons. Because of the kinds of people we choose to associate with, and the establishments we frequent, we're in a place where death by car accident is still far more likely, but logic isn't exactly effective at warding away strong feelings of fear. I really want to crawl under a rock and pretend this isn't an issue, or at least leave for a country where it isn't. IOW, I want to run away from it.

Because I am an alarmist, I have to be careful about what I expose myself to in terms of current events. I don't need to be evaluated to know that I'm at risk to develop clinical paranoia. But in this issue, I actually do have the power to do things about it. To keep my emotions in check, I generally prefer to focus on where things are being done right, and how to do things right. After all, "don't do this" is only half of the lesson, completely useless without the other half: "do this instead." I'm a believer that in addition to the self-defense methods taught to women (which men should be made more aware of, since another aspect of our rape culture is that men being raped, or otherwise sexually assaulted/harassed, is severely downplayed), I also believe that people should be taught how not to rape, and how to be respectful.

I've been questioning why our boys aren't being taught "how not to get raped" for quite a while now. And I agree with you about teaching more about what informed consent is and why it's critical to having sex in the first place.

Sex is a basic drive, as basic as hunger and thirst, and so instead of just "expecting" that men are hypersexual beasts, I strongly believe that people of both genders can and should be taught how to keep these drives from inadvertently harming other people. After all, I'd wager that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults aren't recognized as such by either the victim or the perpetrator.

Sort of. The vast majority of perpetrators don't recognize the assault as a crime, but see it as completely consensual. The vast majority of survivors recognize the assault as a crime, but typically cope with the attack in various ways by either dissociating or avoidance from shame. What I have seen help in lowering risks of sexual assault has been first showing that sexual assault is a violent act, stemming from the desire to control and overpower, and which is titillating to the perpetrator in de-humanizing the target. And second showing just how sexy - like REALLY sexy - informed consent is. Where one doesn't have to learn how to convince somebody to be in the mood.

 

[Alceste]

By the way, I will going out on a date tonight, and I do not plan on getting mad if rejected, even if I am rejected for nonsense reasons, and I feel like my date can do whatever she very much well pleases.


It's a real simple philosophy, but it works.

Oooh, hope it goes well. Do give us the details later.

I don't understand getting violent and aggressive if rejected. If I'm a little ego-bruised by being rejected, I figure the best revenge is moving on with a courteous tip of the hat, never looking back. I once did that to a man I had been with for 4 years - a man I was engaged to - after he confessed over email to one night of cheating while on tour. I sent him an email saying "Thanks for the info, don't bother coming home." I took all his stuff (we lived together) to his friend's house down the road, mailed my engagement ring to his mother (didn't know where he was going to end up living), and by the end of the day had begun an awesome relationship with a much better man - a friend I'd been crushing on hard for almost a year.

 

[dust1n]

Oooh, hope it goes well. Do give us the details later.

Ha, thanks, but it did not. And the only detail that exists, unfortunately, is the fact that not being able to find the place, and then apparently being at the same place and not seeing her around, so I left, but she was there, I guess, and then left.

And that pretty much ends that.

I don't understand getting violent and aggressive if rejected. If I'm a little ego-bruised by being rejected, I figure the best revenge is moving on with a courteous tip of the hat, never looking back. I once did that to a man I had been with for 4 years - a man I was engaged to - after he confessed over email to one night of cheating while on tour. I sent him an email saying "Thanks for the info, don't bother coming home." I took all his stuff (we lived together) to his friend's house down the road, mailed my engagement ring to his mother (didn't know where he was going to end up living), and by the end of the day had begun an awesome relationship with a much better man - a friend I'd been crushing on hard for almost a year.

Everyone knows success is the best revenge.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm sure the folks taking issue with the story will identify as feminists. Probably the "right" kind of feminists, in their minds, though. You know, the feminists that aren't so mean and nasty. Because "entitlement" is such a mean thing to say. Like "privilege."

LOL - as opposed to the actual "right" kind of feminists like yourself who think they have a right to dictate the thoughts and opinions of all feminists. Ironic much?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think you're projecting.

As I do you.

So so wrong, KT.

Again, thanks for dictating to me that my opinion is "wrong." Please proceed and keep shoving down people's throats the "right" opinions you know they should have. Hope that works out well for you.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

LOL - as opposed to the actual "right" kind of feminists like yourself who think they have a right to dictate the thoughts and opinions of all feminists. Ironic much?

As I do you.



Again, thanks for dictating to me that my opinion is "wrong." Please proceed and keep shoving down people's throats the "right" opinions you know they should have. Hope that works out well for you.

Looks like I struck a nerve.

I don't claim to be any Feminist Information Dictator. I call things as I see it, as do you and as do others. And lest you know, I've fielded complaints from women of color and trans women for the lack of concern for their specific plights that I as a white middle class woman don't experience. Those are things I'm highly sensitive to and gives me moments of pause. And most recently, it's been discussing with people about terminology that perpetuates the strict gender binary and marginalizes people who don't identify on the binary, but who want to have their stories heard and injustices against them addressed.

That's a concern I'm completely baffled by, but when they come to our group meetings or message me, it's important to listen and to make concerted and repeated attempts to empathize. That's a commitment that IMO is worthwhile and valuable.

I encourage you to take a step back and read again the responses to your criticism of the OP. You believe entitlement mentality as a factor is being disingenuous, and then you bring up the mentality as a "subset" of feminism that you reject. I personally have not come across feminist literature or discourse that hasn't addressed male entitlement, so if I'm missing something, can you point to commentary that sees entitlement as a non-issue in certain circumstances? I'd be interested in looking into it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Looks like I struck a nerve.

Yes, I dislike thought police and dictators. Such behavior strikes a nerve in people who value freedom of thought and expression.

I don't claim to be any Feminist Information Dictator.

That's good. Then you realize other people can have varying views of what types and aspects of feminism they find the most cogent and productive.

I encourage you to take a step back and read again the responses to your criticism of the OP. You believe entitlement mentality as a factor is being disingenuous, and then you bring up the mentality as a "subset" of feminism that you reject.

Nope. Never did that. I encourage you to take a step back and actually read what I write without making erroneous assumptions about what you think I'm saying.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Here's a similar situation, but reversed:

Woman stabbed man after he refused to have sex with her then threatened to cry rape if he went to hospital for treatment | Daily Mail Online

My question is, in this case, do we attribute the woman's violence against the man for refusing sex to some type of "female entitlement?" If not, what do we suppose are the main causes for her actions? Why would we assume it would be any different in the story you posted?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The shooter hasn't been identified in this article, and otherwise sane people have committed murders in the past (particularly if drunk). Therefore, I ask how you know that this is a case of a mentally ill person?

Are you of the opinion that mentally balanced people murder multiple people because they don't get a phone number? Seriously?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes, I dislike thought police and dictators. Such behavior strikes a nerve in people who value freedom of thought and expression.

That's good. Then you realize other people can have varying views of what types and aspects of feminism they find the most cogent and productive.

Of course I do.

Nope. Never did that. I encourage you to take a step back and actually read what I write without making erroneous assumptions about what you think I'm saying.

Pot, meet kettle. Shame on you for trying to dictate to me what the "right" kind of opinion I need to have. LOL

Dang, this is fun. Got any more? I still think jello wrestling is even more fun, but whatever floats your boat.

BTW, you never answered my question about feminist commentary where entitlement is considered a non-issue. If your claim of entitlement criticism is a mere subset of all of feminism, then I must be missing something. I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion.