Woman shot and killed for refusing to give man her phone number

[Alceste]

Here's a similar situation, but reversed:

Woman stabbed man after he refused to have sex with her then threatened to cry rape if he went to hospital for treatment | Daily Mail Online

My question is, in this case, do we attribute the woman's violence against the man for refusing sex to some type of "female entitlement?" If not, what do we suppose are the main causes for her actions? Why would we assume it would be any different in the story you posted?

Sure, I'd say female sexual entitlement played a part. Nobody argued the roles are never reversed, but the statistics say over half of female murder victims are killed by a current or former lover, while for men that statistic drops to less than 10%.

So, although it sucks either way, there's no point pretending it doesn't suck more often for women.

 

[Riverwolf]

I feel like you'd prefer we didn't mention the very things we're actually concerned about: That once every six days or so, a Canadian woman is murdered by her current or former male partner and the other stats referenced above. I'm way more concerned about these issues than I am about Miley Cyrus's music videos or what female sprites wear in video games. In fact, those issues seem incredibly trivial in comparison.

Well, like I said, I did say I was playing Devil's Advocate.

What I'd "prefer" is pretty much exactly what you guys are doing: discussing, debating, and acting on the particular topics which you have chosen to focus on.

That I'm uncomfortable with it was not, in any way, meant to say not to do it. I do have those feelings, but that doesn't mean they're based on reality or logic. I didn't so much state an opinion as a reaction.

And, of course, actual violence against women is far, far more serious than bikini-clad lesbian cyborg zombie killers. I choose to focus on artistic depictions rather than real-world violence for many reasons, and while one of them is definitely my own personal comfort levels (my alarmist mind is such that I simply cannot function if I don't have some kind of security), another is just that it's a topic I'm more familiar with; still yet another is that, as an aspiring artist myself, it's where I can be an effective activist in my own right. It's not as serious by a long shot, sure, but it is relevant; better I fight the battle I have the actual capability to win, than fighting the battle that would just eat me alive.

We can never grow as human beings if we turn our heads away from that which disturbs us. It's tempting to blame those who gently turn your head in a particular direction for the emotional impact of whatever you see there, but worthwhile to keep in mind that all we're doing, as feminists, is saying "Hey, look at that!" Assuming the thing you're looking at is actually happening, the discomfort you feel is not the result of a flaw or a shortcoming of whoever happened to suggest you look at it.

I'll have to remember those words, because that's a brilliant expression of something I've felt but not before had adequate words for.

Besides... I am still here, aren't I? (not to say I haven't fled from battles in the past, but... nobody's perfect).

That's understandable. OTOH, the biggest risk to Moonwater's personal safety, by a huge margin (statistically), is her partner, and her partner is you, so you can totally relax. Yeah, she'll probably get hit on by weirdos, maybe stalked a little from time to time,

Not to delve into personal details, but it's already happened. Luckily not anything dangerous.

I'd NEVER hurt her willingly, and I know her previous boyfriends won't, either. Heck, one of them is still one of her best friends.

carry her keys like a weapon out of habit on the way from the car to the door (if you live in a city), but as far as the statistics are concerned, chances are that if you don't hurt her, no-one will.

That is a small comfort. Thanks. I just wish it were enough.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "vast majority" (it's pretty obvious when someone is intentionally ignoring your boundaries, spoken or unspoken), but studies have shown that those who subscribe to rape myths are much more likely to either commit or be victims of sexual assault, and also much less likely to recognize it as a sexual assault.

I'm very unlearned in the actual statistics, so I'm generally forced to use vague terms like "vast majority", "bulk", "many", etc. as rough estimates based on what I know of this culture.

 

[Riverwolf]

I will answer the Devil's Advocate for a moment.

On the spectrum of sex-entitlement behavior, this is on the extreme end of knee-jerk reactions stemming from the expectation of accessibility. Stranger killing woman for saying "no." Of course it's uncomfortable to listen to this, then a feminist like myself brings this up as an example of the entitlement mentality following its logical conclusion. Here's the thing...every example that is brought up on every part of the spectrum has been denied by the critics or the apologists.

- "Wifely duties" was a thread here at RF just a few years ago, with some folks still suggesting that a man has a right to sex from his wife. (there's an assumption here)
- Risk assessment rhetoric by critics of rape culture first deny that the majority of sexual assaults occur in close relationships, then suggest that women looking behind their backs and over their drinks at frat parties is smart...because some dudes can't be trusted to stop themselves. (there's another assumption here)
- I along with numerous other females have been advised when dealing with a persistent guy looking for a phone number to give him a fake number. The reason? "You never know what he might do if he's rejected." (another assumption)

Are feminists saying this? Are feminists thinking that the mistrust of men is a good thing? No...the majority of this kind of advice to women about mistrusting men in general? Or who like to point out how it's "common sense" about human biology and the nature of men and masculinity...Are critics of feminism.

What I and other feminists point toward is the culture in place that demands men to look at dating as conquests, to act as hunters, to play the numbers rather than make connections with living breathing other human beings. It's a de-humanizing culture of both men and women. Men being ragged penis-beasts, and women being targets of all these penises who can't help themselves.

Fair points, all. As I said to Alceste, I'd rather you guys, who are more active in these specific issues, point out the instances that you feel best illustrate your arguments, rather than cater to my personal comfort. I can do that on my own. ^_^

If it helps, perhaps you could consider my Devil's Advocate argument to be an example of a Strawman lie that anti-feminists feel, even if they don't have the words to express that feeling. I've got plenty more of 'em; one of the reasons my conviction as a feminist is so strong is because, as I like to say it, the Strawman is whispering the same lies into my subconscious, too. But while I have the words and knowledge to recognize and resist them(albeit with some difficulty), not everyone does.

I've been questioning why our boys aren't being taught "how not to get raped" for quite a while now. And I agree with you about teaching more about what informed consent is and why it's critical to having sex in the first place.

Sort of. The vast majority of perpetrators don't recognize the assault as a crime, but see it as completely consensual. The vast majority of survivors recognize the assault as a crime, but typically cope with the attack in various ways by either dissociating or avoidance from shame. What I have seen help in lowering risks of sexual assault has been first showing that sexual assault is a violent act, stemming from the desire to control and overpower, and which is titillating to the perpetrator in de-humanizing the target. And second showing just how sexy - like REALLY sexy - informed consent is. Where one doesn't have to learn how to convince somebody to be in the mood.

Power-fantasy role-play can have its place, sure... but there must always, ALWAYS be a safe word(and I'd argue a safe "action", if for some reason speaking becomes difficult), and every single action done has full previous consent; nothing is a surprise, except maybe which previously consented-to actions are done that session.

 

[Riverwolf]

LOL - as opposed to the actual "right" kind of feminists like yourself who think they have a right to dictate the thoughts and opinions of all feminists.

I've never seen a more blatant example of projection.

There is no such dictatorship in Mystic's argumentation, any more than there's dictatorship in your trying to convince her that she's wrong.

 

[Riverwolf]

Are you of the opinion that mentally balanced people murder multiple people because they don't get a phone number? Seriously?

I'm not of the opinion that we who are not knowledgeable of the intricacies of human psychology should be in the business of diagnosing people on the bases of a single event, which we only know about at least fourth-hand through a news source.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There is a big elephant in this thread.

The murderer in the link, the guy at the theater, and the many other guys who hit on women all have one thing in common. It is something women have as well. It's called "instinct".
Men are born with an instinct to chase women. Women are also born with an instinct to catch men. These are very basic, unconsciously, gut level behaviours that are very hard to train out of a human. Most men learn that it is wrong, eventually. Some better than others. Women,too, learn that leading a guy on is likely to turn out badly. One of the big downsides to sexual freedom and gender equality is that people are going to behave naturally even when it is immoral to do so. Because morality is learned behavior, and not everybody learns that well. Plus, the younger people haven't had the time to learn yet.
In other places and times, this obvious problem was dealt with in different ways. Gender segregation, chaperones, "barefoot and pregnant', "repressive sexual mores", the list is quite long. This stuff wasn't just to cage women or stop men from behaving naturally, it was a response to a problem in human nature that nobody had a better response to, and we still don't.

I'm not a gender determinist, since I subscribe only to the differences in hormonal fluctuations between people, but hormones can vary wildly between two people even if they happen to have the same genitalia between their legs. As far as calling mating behavior instinct, I disagree with your perspective that biology alone makes men into raging penis-beasts who can't control themselves, and women into targets who have to stave off the assault somehow. I see these played out largely due to societal gender role expectations.

If every woman actually said what she meant, the problem would mostly be solved.

Evidence?

But if a guy like the one you ran into outside the theater found that even one in ten women who say "No" really means "Maybe. Prove how much you want me.", he has to hit very hard on ten women to find the one he wants. And he will find her, as you and I both know. The reason men keep hitting on women is because women reward men with sex often enough to keep them trying.
You may not, but enough of your sisters do to keep the problem going.
Tom

I disagree with the implication that sex is something that always happens to women, and that it's up to women to be the keepers of intimacy so men will be kept in check....especially from the argument of biological determination. And that if men are not kept in check by the women around them by resistance, violence is more likely to occur if they're rewarded. Sexual politics have changed to emphasize more agency with women, so that when she pursues, or she responds, she is seen as an independent person with her own sexual agency, who is engaged in intimacy as much as any man, and therefore "no" really DOES mean "no" according to this paradigm.

Informed consent. Lack of appreciation for informed consent is the elephant in the room. Not instinct. And with entitlement mentality, that men are entitled to sexual affection, attention, and time with a woman, mix that with any combination with lack of respect for consent, and a violent pre-disposition, add alcohol, a sporting event, drugs, or a mental illness that takes inhibition away...and that's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Riverwolf]

Men are born with an instinct to chase women. Women are also born with an instinct to catch men.

It's not an elephant in the thread because it's not universally true. I don't have an instinct to chase women; quite the contrary, in fact. I relate to them far more than I see them as targets.

I'm a wolf, sure, but my prey is creative knowledge and wisdom, not sex.

Besides, I don't think we have enough data at this time to say whether or not we're truly born with the bulk of these instincts, or if we're born with the potential for these instincts and they're just culturally reinforced through childhood. It's probably a bit of both.

As a very young child, I didn't see much difference between boys and girls, even after I knew the distinguishing anatomy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Fair points, all. As I said to Alceste, I'd rather you guys, who are more active in these specific issues, point out the instances that you feel best illustrate your arguments, rather than cater to my personal comfort. I can do that on my own. ^_^

If it helps, perhaps you could consider my Devil's Advocate argument to be an example of a Strawman lie that anti-feminists feel, even if they don't have the words to express that feeling. I've got plenty more of 'em; one of the reasons my conviction as a feminist is so strong is because, as I like to say it, the Strawman is whispering the same lies into my subconscious, too. But while I have the words and knowledge to recognize and resist them(albeit with some difficulty), not everyone does.

Power-fantasy role-play can have its place, sure... but there must always, ALWAYS be a safe word(and I'd argue a safe "action", if for some reason speaking becomes difficult), and every single action done has full previous consent; nothing is a surprise, except maybe which previously consented-to actions are done that session.

Understood.

What I think you're doing really really well, Riverwolf, is recognizing your privilege and how society conditions us all into believing certain things about sex and gender. I have the same issue when I walk into a neighborhood where the majority is people of color...I find myself hearing that seductive voice in the back of my head about the elevation of danger present, and I wind up telling it to shut up knowing it's stemming from cultural conditioning. Recently, I've been challenged with the preconceived notions about trans people and non-binary people, and the seductive whispers continue because as a privileged person, it's easier for me to believe the myths about all of these people since I don't live their experience.

 

[dust1n]

Here's a similar situation, but reversed:

Woman stabbed man after he refused to have sex with her then threatened to cry rape if he went to hospital for treatment | Daily Mail Online

My question is, in this case, do we attribute the woman's violence against the man for refusing sex to some type of "female entitlement?" If not, what do we suppose are the main causes for her actions? Why would we assume it would be any different in the story you posted?

Look more like a failed attempt to rob him turned violent. But it is the same sort of notion of entitlement, though your example doesn't seem to be a case of sex as an end, but sex as a means towards a different end.

Either way, people who feel entitled to endanger others for any reason are dangerous.

 

[Riverwolf]

Understood.

What I think you're doing really really well, Riverwolf, is recognizing your privilege and how society conditions us all into believing certain things about sex and gender. I have the same issue when I walk into a neighborhood where the majority is people of color...I find myself hearing that seductive voice in the back of my head about the elevation of danger present, and I wind up telling it to shut up knowing it's stemming from cultural conditioning. Recently, I've been challenged with the preconceived notions about trans people and non-binary people, and the seductive whispers continue because as a privileged person, it's easier for me to believe the myths about all of these people since I don't live their experience.

Frigg's Love, I get that one too. The bulk of the population of my town is either European descended or Mexican descended/immigrated. As a result, no matter how much Samuel Jackson/Morgan Freeman/Will Smith/Denzel Washington awesomeness I expose myself to, whenever I encounter folks of African descent, alarm bells automatically sound in my mind, however unfair that is. Doesn't help that a lot of those alarm bells were reinforced by 2000s hip-hop culture while I was growing up; most African-descended kids I saw were of that subculture. ... in fact, I can't even remember any boy of African-descent who didn't at least have that same level of energy and type of attitude (and as a person with Asperger's Syndrome, that kind of energy and noise is... well, play the browser nongame Auti-sim for a sample of what it can be like. ... and a sample of the sort of thing I can do to help people learn how to walk a mile in another's shoes.)

I've been REALLY wanting to subvert that part of my psychology as of late, to remove those knee-jerk alarm bells from my mind. To that end, when the new Pokemon game allowed three skin-colors to choose from, I decided to go against my typical choice and picked the dark-skin. That small act, seemingly irrelevant since Pokemon takes place in various egalitarian utopias, seems to have helped a lot. I should probably give Black Jesus a watch, too; I've heard that one's pretty subversive.

 

[Alceste]

I find their to be an epedemic of violence in general. Some cultures targe women more this is true but in one of those stories the guy was bat **** crazy, put quite simply. I have never heard of a guy thinking he is entitled to get peoples phone number. Just a tragic incident gender wasn't even the target when he starts shooting five people.

I've been treated to men who are out on the pull becoming angry and aggressive when I don't want to talk to them, flirt with them, give them my number or what have you on several occasions. I've also seen it happening to other women. Never violent, so far, but aggressive enough to make me think violence was a real possibility. I've also had to move a friend whose partner's jealousy was starting to become violent. She wasn't allowed to talk to men, and her husband had started bugging her phone and hiring or persuading men to follow and hit on her to police her behaviour when he wasn't around. When he started pushing her, I talked her into getting out of the house with their kid.

There! Now you've heard of it. Has your opinion changed?

 

[Alceste]

Well, like I said, I did say I was playing Devil's Advocate.

What I'd "prefer" is pretty much exactly what you guys are doing: discussing, debating, and acting on the particular topics which you have chosen to focus on.

That I'm uncomfortable with it was not, in any way, meant to say not to do it. I do have those feelings, but that doesn't mean they're based on reality or logic. I didn't so much state an opinion as a reaction.

And, of course, actual violence against women is far, far more serious than bikini-clad lesbian cyborg zombie killers. I choose to focus on artistic depictions rather than real-world violence for many reasons, and while one of them is definitely my own personal comfort levels (my alarmist mind is such that I simply cannot function if I don't have some kind of security), another is just that it's a topic I'm more familiar with; still yet another is that, as an aspiring artist myself, it's where I can be an effective activist in my own right. It's not as serious by a long shot, sure, but it is relevant; better I fight the battle I have the actual capability to win, than fighting the battle that would just eat me alive.



I'll have to remember those words, because that's a brilliant expression of something I've felt but not before had adequate words for.

Besides... I am still here, aren't I? (not to say I haven't fled from battles in the past, but... nobody's perfect).



Not to delve into personal details, but it's already happened. Luckily not anything dangerous.

I'd NEVER hurt her willingly, and I know her previous boyfriends won't, either. Heck, one of them is still one of her best friends.



That is a small comfort. Thanks. I just wish it were enough.



I'm very unlearned in the actual statistics, so I'm generally forced to use vague terms like "vast majority", "bulk", "many", etc. as rough estimates based on what I know of this culture.

I completely understand. Thank you for expressing your thoughts in an honest and non-confrontational way, in the spirit of this subforum. I also appreciate your willingness to listen to women sharing their experiences and what they think about them as opposed to denying or ignoring those experiences and telling us what we SHOULD think from a position of privilege and ignorance vis à vis female perspectives. You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how rare that is when discussing women's issues with men. That's why we have a word for it - mansplaining. You aren't doing it, and that's totally awesome.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Sure, I'd say female sexual entitlement played a part. Nobody argued the roles are never reversed, but the statistics say over half of female murder victims are killed by a current or former lover, while for men that statistic drops to less than 10%.

So, although it sucks either way, there's no point pretending it doesn't suck more often for women.

Well, if everyone agrees with that (I assume we all do), what's the bottom line? How do we move forward?

The issue I see is that our culture (of men and women both) poorly conditions its males from the time they are born to the time they perpetrate such acts. Consider for instance that males are 1.6 times more likely to die of suicide, 3.8 times more likely to be murdered, 10 times more likely to die in a war, and have an expected life span of 5 years less. Males are less likely to seek counseling, and substantially less likely to report sexual assault. Males are often conditioned to suppress emotional needs to maintain a strong facade and to not expect love except in the context of sex with a female. These issues are extraordinarily damaging, and has collateral effects on females. i.e. sexual assault.

So, in my opinion, we need a movement for males that is on par with feminism that is intended to advocate things like freedom of emotional expression and freedom from emotional suppression for males. For the moment, however, I think feminism is the closest thing males have to advocacy for such issues. In my brain, what's good for females is good for males, and vice versa.

 

[Alceste]

Frigg's Love, I get that one too. The bulk of the population of my town is either European descended or Mexican descended/immigrated. As a result, no matter how much Samuel Jackson/Morgan Freeman/Will Smith/Denzel Washington awesomeness I expose myself to, whenever I encounter folks of African descent, alarm bells automatically sound in my mind, however unfair that is. Doesn't help that a lot of those alarm bells were reinforced by 2000s hip-hop culture while I was growing up; most African-descended kids I saw were of that subculture. ... in fact, I can't even remember any boy of African-descent who didn't at least have that same level of energy and type of attitude (and as a person with Asperger's Syndrome, that kind of energy and noise is... well, play the browser nongame Auti-sim for a sample of what it can be like. ... and a sample of the sort of thing I can do to help people learn how to walk a mile in another's shoes.)

I've been REALLY wanting to subvert that part of my psychology as of late, to remove those knee-jerk alarm bells from my mind. To that end, when the new Pokemon game allowed three skin-colors to choose from, I decided to go against my typical choice and picked the dark-skin. That small act, seemingly irrelevant since Pokemon takes place in various egalitarian utopias, seems to have helped a lot. I should probably give Black Jesus a watch, too; I've heard that one's pretty subversive.

Yup. I get that too. I overcompensate for it by being too friendly. Lol.

 

[Poeticus]

I should probably give Black Jesus a watch

Black Jesus is my favorite Jesus---of all time, hands down.

 

[dawny0826]

Yet...many contrarians felt it necessary to denounce rape culture and misogyny - and protest against the very existence of misogyny - and say that it's all about mental illness and nothing more.

I realize that my brand of feminism places me on an island of my own.

It's one thing to disagree that a scenario depicts rape culture and/or misogyny. This doesn't necessarily translate to denial or rejection of the existence of rape culture and/or misogyny. It's asinine, in my opinion, to dismiss the possibility that such criminal actions could be committed because of mental illness or instability.

After reading the article, I think it plausible that the man may have felt entitled to her number, entitled to sex. I find it equally plausible that he was acting out of mental instability.

I understand good and well that there are people who do deny that such injustice exists. But, to hold a contrary opinion doesn't necessarily translate to denial that rape culture and misogyny exists.

This is another example of a woman being a target, expected to be available, and when it's apparent she is not, becomes a target of violence.

Then here comes the naysayers:
- But what about the other people he shot? It isn't misogyny. It's just some dude who isn't mentally healthy.
- Why didn't she just give him a fake phone number?

Which stands paradoxically with the complaint about women "beating around the bush" about rejection. That women should just be straight about saying "no" to someone asking for a phone number. That women should just be honest. I hear it all the time in various situations, "Why don't you just come up to me and talk to me about it if you have a problem?"

The examples provided in the last paragraph exemplify rape culture. And victim blaming is a real aspect of rape culture.

However, not all lines of questioning necessarily translate to victim blaming. And not all actions against a woman translate to misogyny.

Unless you committed the crime yourself, you're greatly speculating as to his thoughts, reasoning and motives. On the flipside, it would be dishonest to dismiss the possibility of misogynistic intent.

This is not a rare occurrence. This is part of the culture. This story, my story, and other women's stories are not a rare statistic cherry-picked for supporting a victim mentality. This is an epidemic of violence against women where the burden of responsibility is placed squarely on women to ward off predatory behavior, and where women are to be blamed for violence against them, at least considered for how she provoked it.

Rape culture exists.

There's a difference between victim blaming and encouraging women to be empowered and to make intelligent choices for their lives.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I loose alot of faith in humanity reading some of the posts here. Picking apart one story when there are countless other stories that exist of the violence towards women, women being expected to be fully accountable for their defense and being attacked, being expected to be available (many restaurants will not allow waitresses to wear engagement/wedding rings), being a **** if you are or aren't available for sex, and of course their is a mountain of evidence that shows women are brutally beaten and killed by current or former male partners at a rate much higher than what men go through.

There's a difference between victim blaming and encouraging women to be empowered and to make intelligent choices for their lives.

And a major difference between empowering women and trying to find every excuse and reason to tear her character down if anything bad happens to her.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well, if everyone agrees with that (I assume we all do), what's the bottom line? How do we move forward?

- Advocate sex education to include consent definitions in its course materials
- Petition lawmakers and law enforcement agencies to legislate and enforce against perpetrators and institutions that willingly give a free pass to perpetrators (college campuses are notorious overall)
- Volunteer at local rape crisis shelters. The majority of them are severely understaffed, and are in need of more peer advocates when women victims are brought in to the ER....these women are in shock after the attack and are usually alone, and don't have the means or whereabouts to demand for rape kits, taking clothes for evidence for local precincts, and need a change of clothing to exit the ER.
- Volunteer for domestic violence shelters in poor neighborhoods, and help with free classes on self-defense and helping women in these neighborhoods create their own "emergency" shelter if they need to get away and hide for the night.

The issue I see is that our culture (of men and women both) poorly conditions its males from the time they are born to the time they perpetrate such acts. Consider for instance that males are 1.6 times more likely to die of suicide, 3.8 times more likely to be murdered, 10 times more likely to die in a war, and have an expected life span of 5 years less. Males are less likely to seek counseling, and substantially less likely to report sexual assault. Males are often conditioned to suppress emotional needs to maintain a strong facade and to not expect love except in the context of sex with a female. These issues are extraordinarily damaging, and has collateral effects on females. i.e. sexual assault.

I agree. Patriarchy demands men to be unfeeling cogs in the wheel so that only the few men at the helm reap the rewards. The system itself dehumanizes the majority of the people, making women into unthinking vessels for gestation, and men into unfeeling warriors for provision.

So, in my opinion, we need a movement for males that is on par with feminism that is intended to advocate things like freedom of emotional expression and freedom from emotional suppression for males. For the moment, however, I think feminism is the closest thing males have to advocacy for such issues. In my brain, what's good for females is good for males, and vice versa.

:clap :yes:

 

[dawny0826]

And a major difference between empowering women and trying to find every excuse and reason to tear her character down if anything bad happens to her.

You've misrepresented my statement, Shadow Wolf.

What you're describing is VICTIM BLAMING, which I've already acknowledged to be a legitimate aspect of rape culture. I'm not a proponent of victim blaming.

It's natural to seek answers as to why things happen. Society has the right to question why tragedies occur and should if society cares to improve and progress. We can't control the actions of those who are motivated to harm others. We can only as individuals - men and women alike, do the best that we know to do to lead healthy and safe lives. This knowledge often comes by ways of education and trial by error. My line of thinking is far removed from rape culture, whether you like the way I think or not.

 

[idav]

There! Now you've heard of it. Has your opinion changed?

IDK I already think men are generally more violent. I also think women take the advantage in the sex scene.

That said I believe we are far too violent. People want their kids to be football players instead of something academic like a scientist or something. Like the NJ team getting suspended cause of their hazing and all that, but people get upset that their football program got cancelled and I hear nothing about the bullying and sexual harassment going on.

Thats the society I have to deal with, bunch of numb skulls.