Women should keep silent in the assembly?

[halbhh]

The Bible describes only men as being charged with congregation oversight - Titus 1:5-6; 1 Timothy 3:1-2; James 3:1

As a friendly aid, I'd like to illuminate something (key to this discussion) in these.

5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable....

While typically first-century men would not choose a woman to be an elder, this doesn't really say that a woman cannot be an elder. But Paul is assuming most would be at least.... But...let's continue....

Have a look at a later verse in the 1rst Timothy chapter:

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.

Ah!.... remember something?.....

....Yes! A woman was a deacon already...as we read in Romans:

" I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. "

Does this help?

It should. These instructions didn't forbid women to be deacons, even though Paul generally assumed most would be men.

That was just a natural assumption -- men had been in positions of religions leadership typically in that time, in the 1rst Century, by training (upbringing) and typical gender roles that were merely customary....

But even though prophets and elders were typically men, not all were. (Remember Deborah, for one?)

Does this help? We have to distinguish between a style of writing and the real intent.

 

[epronovost]

Sorry I was Not more clear (post # 193) because a college teacher would still be considered as being over an adult student.

Yes, but teaching in a college context and in a k-12 context is extremely different. College teaching is, as the word imply, collegial. It must involve personal work, discussion and debates. College level courses are not limited to a professor making presentation and students listening. They include a lot other things and high level college course don't even contain significant amount of lectures.

 

[halbhh]

Everyone:

This entire chapter should help illuminate the reality -- Paul greeting key leaders/workers in the church:

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. 4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

6 Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

8 Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.

9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10 Greet Apelles, whose fidelity to Christ has stood the test.

Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.

11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.

Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.

12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the other brothers and sisters with them.

15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord’s people who are with them.

16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.

17 I urge you, brothers and sisters...

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 16 - New International Version

Does it sound like perhaps half of the church's workers/leaders were women?

Yes.

See post #201 above for a helpful explanation about language use, and also post # 192 about the reason women in one church were urged to be quiet.

@IndigoChild5559

 

[IndigoChild5559]

By what the Bible tells, the reason why man did it seems to have been that he wanted to please the woman. Woman did it apparently because she wanted to become like God. I think the one who wants to please is better leader than the one who seeks high position, because that person is thinking others and not just oneself.

Adam's rationalization doesn't absolve him of moral responsibility. The only point here worth mentioning is that Adam KNEW it was wrong and did it anyway, which is rebellion. Eve did not rebel, she was deceived.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you for correcting me. I think I got my idea from jewfaq.org.

If you did please quote it here. I seriously doubt that the site said women only had three commandments to follow.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The purpose of the meeting is Not the time to ask questions aka ' interrupt the meeting '.
The time for questions is ' after ' the meeting.
First, a woman to ask her husband, and then if need be they ask the spiritually older men in the congregation.
It has nothing to do with being treated as a child, just as in the accepted headship school system that a teacher is over the student, the principal over the teacher, and the super over the principal.

If its an okay time for men to ask questions, then its an okay time for women to ask questions. There is no difference. You don't see Paul saying that a man should wait til he gets home and ask his wife, do you? It's condescending and infantilizing to women to treat us this way.

 

[robocop (actually)]

If you did please quote it here. I seriously doubt that the site said women only had three commandments to follow.

The Three Mitzvot of the Woman - Mikvah.org - Mivtza Taharas Hamishpacha

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The purpose of the meeting is Not the time to ask questions aka ' interrupt the meeting '.
The time for questions is ' after ' the meeting.
First, a woman to ask her husband, and then if need be they ask the spiritually older men in the congregation.
It has nothing to do with being treated as a child, just as in the accepted headship school system that a teacher is over the student, the principal over the teacher, and the super over the principal.

Please. If I told my husband to be quiet in whatever public meetings, and if he had questions, not to submit them, but to ask me when he got home, the first words out of his mouth would be "Don't treat me like such a child. You're not my mother."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would have to be as smart as God to understand his reason. I do not claim to be that smart. Perhaps you do?

I don't think you have to be as smart as God. Surely we can understand a rule such as this with our own reason and knowledge of the nature of men and women.

 

[Meow Mix]

But these are just tendencies; it doesn't account for each and every individual. There will always be those who don't follow those tendencies, and they have rights too. That's how I would look at it.

This is the most important part.

A lot of these brain difference arguments have evidence that they’re more related to upbringing and culture during development than strict biology, but even if they were due to inherent sexually dimorphic developmental biology, it would still be a spectrum. There would still be no “one size fits all” relationship roadmap with particular sex-based roles.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Three Mitzvot of the Woman - Mikvah.org - Mivtza Taharas Hamishpacha

Oh, I see the confusion here. These are the commandments that women need to obey THAT MEN DON'T. You mistakenly thought it was the only commandments that women need to obey. I hope I worded that okay.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

All of God's children are able to change - to adapt to circumstances given them - but that is irrelevant to the ideal situation.

Men and women were designed in particular ways - physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally - to fulfill particular roles.

Women were designed - ideally - to be the primary "raisers of the children" in more ways than one.

The fact that people can adapt to less-than-ideal situations does not change that.

A family or situation not fitting the mold does not mean there is anything wrong with the mold or the family.

That's just mortality.

That is an incredibly simplistic viewpoint. Man's instinct and drive to protect - to provide for and instruct - goes far beyond them simply being stronger.

Irrelevant and not the ideal situation.

The ideal would be a man being present to fight on behalf of the woman and children.

However - any fighting a woman can learn to help the man would be awesome.

Maleness?

We are speaking of spiritual things - you can put away the college professors and bumper stickers - this ain't a political rally.

Officiating a worship service or holding the Priesthood has nothing to do with "maleness" or any "greater spiritual insight".

If anything - Man's need to receive the Priesthood in order to fulfill their spiritual roles may showcase a lack of "spiritual insight" on their part.

They aren't born with everything they need to fulfill their role - like the ideal woman. They need a constant partnership with God.

God's organization for the Universe and His Church is similar to His intended organization for the family of Mankind.

God gives to Man. Man gives to Woman. Woman gives to children - then the cycle continues.

It is not about superiority or spiritual insight - but about establishing a hierarchy of responsibility.

For example - even though it was Eve who first decided to partake of the Fruit and convinced Adam to partake - it was Adam who bore the responsibility of that action and the blame.

He was Eve's husband and Priesthood holder. This is an inalienable thing.

Just like how only women can conceive - only men can officiate.

It is the order of Heaven.

The husband inherits the bulk of the responsibility for his family. His salvation literally depends on it.

Therefore - an instinct was installed in Man to protect his family - both physically and spiritually.

That's the ideal anyway.

What it really comes down to is this. A women is just as likely or unlikely as any man to understand spiritual things. To say that she must ask her husband at home assumes the opposite wrongly.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Women are more likely to make changes to religious works, often suggested by male con artists, since she will not see the negative result right away

This is the kind of bigotry that always arises when people try to justify treating women like children.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is the most important part.

A lot of these brain difference arguments have evidence that they’re more related to upbringing and culture during development than strict biology, but even if they were due to inherent sexually dimorphic developmental biology, it would still be a spectrum. There would still be no “one size fits all” relationship roadmap with particular sex-based roles.

Thank you!

 

[robocop (actually)]

Oh, I see the confusion here. These are the commandments that women need to obey THAT MEN DON'T. You mistakenly thought it was the only commandments that women need to obey. I hope I worded that okay.

TY for the help!

 

[Bree]

You are not answering the question of why. I am aware there are Christians who believe this already. What I want to know is what is the rationale behind it. Surely God must have a sensible reason.

i believe it is because as the scriptures say according to the Apostle Paul

1Cor11:7 For a man should not have his head covered, as he is God’s image+ and glory, but the woman is man’s glory. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man.+ 9 And what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man.+ 10 That is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head

If God created men in his image, you would expect that he would give men the type of authority on earth that he posses in heaven. As the heavenly head, he would no doubt want men to project that standing on earth as the earthly head. Seeing men are created in Gods image, it is only right that they reflect his position.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Hey Messianic Israelite. No offense, but it was reading the beliefs of YOUR congregation that got the burr in my saddle for this thread.

Genesis says the woman will long for her husband, not that she is subservient to him.

Hi IndigoChild5559. Good evening. I hope my faith hasn't caused annoyance for you. I'm glad to see you've read some of our beliefs though. I've found that our teachings are accurate. The scripture in Genesis 3:16 says:

"To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

I just looked up the word 'rule' in the Stong's just now in the Blue Letter Bible ( H4910 - māšal - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (asv) ) and it says the following:

מָשַׁל mâshal, maw-shal'; a primitive root; to rule:—(have, make to have) dominion, governor, × indeed, reign, (bear, cause to, have) rule(-ing, -r), have power.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

i believe it is because as the scriptures say according to the Apostle Paul

1Cor11:7 For a man should not have his head covered, as he is God’s image+ and glory, but the woman is man’s glory. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man.+ 9 And what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man.+ 10 That is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head

If God created men in his image, you would expect that he would give men the type of authority on earth that he posses in heaven. As the heavenly head, he would no doubt want men to project that standing on earth as the earthly head. Seeing men are created in Gods image, it is only right that they reflect his position.

Bree, thank you for providing what you think to be the reason. I cannot see it. In my marriage, my husband and I decided on things together, mutually. I don't think that was some sort of perversion of God's design.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

This is not a description of what God wants. It is a description of what is. Theologically speaking, being victimized by husbands came into the world when sin entered the world. That doesn't mean we are to accept it or not try to better things. For example, you wouldn't deny a woman pain killers during childbirth simply because of the above verse would you? No of course not. Today a woman can be relieved of almost all the pain of childbirth. That's a good thing. It's not a subversion of God's will. It's the same with men toiling on the earth, part of the same passage. You would not deny men the devices and machinery that make working so much easier and more productive? Nope. We work to better the world, to restore Eden to the extent that we can.

 

[Bree]

Bree, thank you for providing what you think to be the reason. I cannot see it. In my marriage, my husband and I decided on things together, mutually. I don't think that was some sort of perversion of God's design.

this is not about whether a woman can make a decision or not. Its about who has the ultimate authority to make the decision. And it was asked at the outset about women teaching in the 'assembly' or in 'church' as a minster.

So what goes on between a husband and wife is not the point of this discussion nor was it the point of what the scriptures say about headship.

When it comes down to who God gave authority to lead the assembly, or the family, it is to the man. That does not mean that a man in the family does not allow his wife to make a decision. But 'headship' is assigned by God, not by us.