Women's Clothes

[The Kilted Heathen]

I know she is. But, that's "sexy." In reality though, if bisexuals aren't ignored, they're sexualized, typically sexualized bisexual women by men. Yes, some women as well, but I doubt they had that in mind.

Given that homosexuals and bisexuals are very much included in Borderlands, I don't. There's also a completely different side of Moxxi:

It is,

When and where?

she's just straight up rude and has a very nasty superiority complex, not the unintended bluntness that unintentionally hurts feelings and rational/logical thinking that those with Asperger's are primed for.

Her rudeness and superiority complex is described in the first game as coming from her isolation and abandonment by the ATLAS Corporation, and her subsequent survival among the prisoner-turned-bandit tribes of Pandora. The insanity of the planet - as well as torture and deception at the hands of Handsome Jack - drove her insane, though she retained her wit and intelligence. And even still, she is welcomed and defended by the Crimson Raiders, and personally I find her to be a funny character.

That's because she is a stereotype.

How?

I obviously haven't found it yet then.

I just linked it. As well as many things that are said in game, they show that she is very intelligent and skilled.[/QUOTE]

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Most of the games that I listed (Battlefront II isn't out just yet) have a significant female fanbase. I know this; I've played with them (and that's the great thing about online games, it's not limited to what I see directly). Even games like Halo have a healthy female fanbase; I've never bothered to gauge ratios because frankly it's never been an issue for us all. And by "us all," I mean the people who are there to play the game, not the media that critiques the game or the "feminists" who deride the game yet have zero interest or stake in it.

And yet the comment that sparked your challenge does have a kernel of merit; there are a vast array of games out there on multiple platforms. What kind of game are you looking for?

Once again, you're missing the point. There is a huge disparity between games that are marketed TO men versus games that are marketed TO women. Saying "yeah, but women still play games" doesn't mean that there are many games which are marketed TO them, and the original argument which inspired my challenge was that there are a variety of games out there for all tastes, so my challenge was to produce examples of triple-A games that market SPECIFICALLY TO women. So far, that challenge has not been met.

I asked once before, and nothing was provided; what exactly makes these games marketed towards men?

I already answered that.

Is it just the stereotypes of guns and war? This ad is marketing towards men; video games just don't really do that. I get Game Informer every month, and it's marketed towards... gamers. Indiscriminate of gender.

Once again, you're missing the point. Are you seriously suggesting that the vast majority of games marketing isn't aimed at men?

"Recent changes in gaming demographics" doesn't translate - at least to me - into "women are gaming, break out the pastels!"

I didn't suggest we should. The point is that there is a disparity.

Because in those demographics you're going to find women who enjoy war, guns, cars, and everything that's stereotypically pushed towards men. So how do you market to them? These games are marketed to whoever enjoys them, which is why my examples given explore how women can enjoy and find part in several AAA titles. Which, if you ask me, is the far better option; rather than continuing this polarizing dichotomy of Blue and Pink, games are truly for everyone.

I'm starting to get tired of you missing the point. As I have said before, I am not a fan of gendered marketing, and I find the stereotypes portrayed on both sides of the gendered marketing divide to be reductive - but the point is that gendered marketing still exists and still works and, by and large, games companies have been far more interested in the past few decades to the male end of the spectrum than the female end of the spectrum, thus the argument that "there are games for everyone so stop complaining about gender disparity in the medium" is simply false when you realize the dearth of major titles that are specifically aimed at women and girls versus the overwhelming glut of games aimed squarely at men and young boys. I'm not arguing for an equal division of gendered marketing - I'm simply pointing out that there is a major disparity, this disparity has resulted in lots of negative representation of women in particular, and gaming has remained far too male focuses for far too long.

What I'm seeing here instead is quite shocking. Constantly I've heard "Feminism is for everyone!" yet I'm being told here that what's wanted--no, needed, is a game that is for women only, no men allowed.

Literally nobody has said that.

Inclusion is being given, but exclusion is being demanded contrary to every movement goal that I've ever been told.

I don't get why you're struggling to understand this issue. Do you or do you not understand that "young men" are marketed to far more than women or girls in the modern games industry?

The only problem is that you're not showing how. Saying "war and fatigues" falls flat on it's face when women can like those things too.

And men can like pastel colours and love stories, but those men are mysteriously not being catered for either by games companies.

And? From the very first game, a female Shepard is possible. In fact I'd argue that Jennifer Hale does a far better job of playing Shepard than whoever the guy is. What's more, while choosing the gender was always the plan, Shepard was written as a woman.

None of which plays into the marketing or design of the game whatsoever.

It should also be noted that as I stated before, I'm not following stereotypes of marketing, I'm arguing for inclusion in games. Women can be gun-toting, dark warriors as well.

Of course they can. But you're missing the point about gendered marketing and the role it plays in the industry.

HOW?

I'm not going to explain target demographics to you again.

 

[SomeRandom]

What's odd with that is that in every job that I've worked recently, it's always the guys who play mobile games on their phones in their downtime.

That's probably because they don't have ready access to their console or PC. Some guys really like their games.

 

[SomeRandom]

Once again, you're missing the point. There is a huge disparity between games that are marketed TO men versus games that are marketed TO women. Saying "yeah, but women still play games" doesn't mean that there are many games which are marketed TO them, and the original argument which inspired my challenge was that there are a variety of games out there for all tastes, so my challenge was to produce examples of triple-A games that market SPECIFICALLY TO women. So far, that challenge has not been met.

What games are women statistically more likely to play though? This is has been studied 10 times over and females tend to be drawn to simulation games mostly. The casuals play sims or Farmville whilst the core play MMORGs mostly. (I'm part of the oddities in that I prefer action/adventure as a female. But I'm okay with that.) How are they marketed specifically? (Well okay, MMORPGs differ drastically in advertising, depending on what type they are. Some are male oriented, sure, but not all.) The most identifiable ad for Warcraft, even on the box of the game, is that of purple pretty pastel colours and a lady's face with long flowing purple/blue hair, in fact most ads for a lot of RPGs/MMOs use pastel colours, usually purple and green, the Skyrim ads I encounter are less likely to have a scantily clad woman than an ad done by an Amish person and instead showcase social interaction and fighting, at least where I live and Minecraft uses a very aesthetically pleasing colour palette quite frequently. So do these count?
Hell every single platformer since the 90s advertised using very bright colours and the preview gameplay did often showcase social interaction, at least for later platformers. Are they marketed towards women? Do they count?

You know for a fact that games are either marketed to an already established demographic or their marketing is entirely neutral. So why this incredulity when a marketing team markets to an established pattern? That is their literal job. Why would a specific title like say Call of Duty, which has a female audience of around 9- 12% (or potentially less as that stat is for FPS games in general) market to women specifically? It's like if the Barbie movies decided to market exclusively for males. I mean, they could. And I have no issue with little boys playing with Barbie dolls or watching their movies (even if I despise them.) But again, why would the marketing team do this? It makes no sense from a business standpoint.
Most AAA games do actually aim for a more neutral approach, unless it's a genre with an overwhelming amount of males as their core audience. Like First Person Shooters or Sports games. Because the marketing team knows their demographic well. They will not cater to the outliers or statistical anomalies. Because again, from a business perspective it doesn't make sense to. I'm sorry if the marketing for games follow trends established by people of their own free will. But what are they supposed to do about it?

Also, I question this dichotomy that you yourself enforce. Marketing to women has to be pretty and feature social interaction or romance or whatever. Okay? That's true of the past. But this isn't the 50s though. People are more complicated than "oh pink equals pretty" and "hell yeah explosions!!"
Marketing teams have actually noticed this and at least in gaming do tend to focus on game play and the experience rather than sexy females or pretty pinks or whatever.
Except maybe GTA, but they do that on purpose to ruffle feathers. And I think that's important for people to acknowledge. Studios like Rockstar or devs like Hideo Kajima use controversy to manipulate the news media or even the public into giving them free publicity. And it works exactly the way they want, every single time. So why wouldn't their advertising teams do something similar? It works.
Though in fairness to Rockstar, Red Dead was rather tame in its advertising. At least where I live.

Unrelated but who else is super hyped for Red Dead 2!!!!? I don't normally preorder but never have I been so tempted to with this years releases.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Once again, you're missing the point.

No, I'm not, and this covers a great deal of what you've said here, so pay attention to this: I fully understand gender marketing. I gave an example of marketing towards men in the Axe commercial. I've also provided numerous ads for various modern video games. My point throughout this is that Gender Marketing is not greatly present in video games anymore. I have asked countless times for any of you making this argument to provide explanation as to how games are marketed to men and not women, and as of yet this has not been done. All I've been given to work with are stereotypes.

As also stated, I refuse to acknowledge the stereotypes as valid vehicles for inclusive gaming. You seem stuck on "market to women with a women-only game or nothing at all," whereas I am giving ample example and reasoning into the inclusive nature of various video games - isolating still just to AAA titles. I haven't even breached into Indie game titles.

So keep that in mind throughout: I understand the marketing to genders, and I disagree that it happens in video games. If you want to change my mind on this, provide some examples. But stop saying that I don't understand the point or that I'm "missing the point" when I've clearly disagreed with it and taken my argument from there.

I already answered that.

No, you haven't. You haven't provided examples, you haven't shown where and how the marketing for games is intended to appeal only to men, or even generally to men, you haven't really provided anything in terms of this claim.

Are you seriously suggesting that the vast majority of games marketing isn't aimed at men?

Yes. I would have thought I've made this clear.

Literally nobody has said that.

You have repeatedly asked for AAA titles that are marketed towards women, and identified this as a game that would be centered around a female protagonist with an emotionally driven story, light color pallet (pink and purple dominant), and as you said in Post #114, the issue that you have is that there is a lack of these games that are specifically for women. As though the vast majority of AAA titles are (inexplicably) for men. Despite going to lengths to accommodate every range of demographic players; including women.

And men can like pastel colours and love stories, but those men are mysteriously not being catered for either by games companies.

Most AAA titles push for realism in terms of graphics and aesthetics. Not many pastel colors out there in the world, you know. Yet environmental designs and realism aside, most games these days allow a good deal of customization that includes pastel colors. Why, one can even be a walking death machine colored up like the Easter Bunny.

That's a male model, by the way, but the game does absolutely let you choose a female Spartan model as well.

As for love stories? Off my shelf we have:

Assassin's Creed: Unity, which features a very "Romeo & Juliet"-esque love story between Arno (an Assassin) and his childhood love Elise (a Templar). Doesn't get more star-crossed than that, as they face down both the Templar and Assassin Orders and defy their allegiances rivalry.
Batman: Arkham Knight even introduces some romance and emotional drama, with Batman sacrificing his love for Catwoman, his brotherly love for Barbara Gordon, and his deeply trusting alliance with James Gordon to once and for all save Gotham.
Dragon Age (Origins, 2, Inquisition), which features deep romances and storylines spanning the titles too numerous to fully list, though noteworthy being the possible romance between Morrigan and the Warden.
Fallout 4, who's entire main storyline is a mother (or father) searching the wastelands 200 years after the witnessed murder of their spouse and theft of their child to find and avenge said family.
Grand Theft Auto 5, which despite it's satire and criticism of the American way of life features a deep and weaving tale of an ex-thief father trying to repair his family and keep them safe from his past, a maniac struggling with finding out said father - who he loved like a brother - didn't die several years back and ultimately betrayed him, and a gangster trying to get out of the hood and turn his life around, all to impress the woman he loves.
Lord of the Rings: Shadow of Mordor, set in the legendary Middle Earth, that tells of a Ranger of Gondor and the wraith of an elf of the First Age, set out to avenge their families and find peace in death.
The Witcher (II & III), which follows Geralt as he tries to recover his memory with the aid and love of the scorceress Triss Merigold, and upon recovering it sets out to find his fate-bound lover, Yennifer of Vengerberg, and their luck-child Cirilla.
Brutal Legend, which has the (at times ill-fated) romance of Eddie Riggs and Ophelia, and drives the union of the Ironheade and Tear Drinker factions against the Demon Hoard.

So I guess it's not all blood, guns and motors.

Unrelated but who else is super hyped for Red Dead 2!!!!?

Meh. I'm not big into Western stuff. Aside from A Thousand Ways To Die in the West and Blazing Saddles. I'm absolutely stoked for Battlefront II.

Most AAA games do actually aim for a more neutral approach, unless it's a genre with an overwhelming amount of males as their core audience. Like First Person Shooters or Sports games.

Even FPS games and Sports games market neutrally. Ads showcase the gameplay and campaigns, or the most recent sports roster. Nothing about the ads is drenched in testosterone, and the only way this could be construed is through viewing things stereotypically. I mean, hell, take this ad from Halo Reach:

(That's Catherine-B320, by the way)

 

[SomeRandom]

Meh. I'm not big into Western stuff. Aside from A Thousand Ways To Die in the West and Blazing Saddles. I'm absolutely stoked for Battlefront II.

Neither am I, if I'm honest. My dad was, though.
But hot diggity dog, Read Dead won me the hell over. The story and characters are amazing and the stranger/freak missions are often darkly hilarious. I may even prefer it to the GTA franchise, though that is still dear to me. I never knew I wanted to play as a cowboy until that game. Now I still play it.
Battlefront is amazing too.
I'm getting a real nostalgia kick from the platformer comeback as of late, really.

Even FPS games and Sports games market neutrally. Ads showcase the gameplay and campaigns, or the most recent sports roster. Nothing about the ads is drenched in testosterone, and the only way this could be construed is through viewing things stereotypically. I mean, hell, take this ad from Halo Reach:

Hmm, point taken. One can view sports games as a male oriented product, but only through a lens that says that the game is automatically male because of sports. Which I don't agree with. I know plenty of ladies who play at a semi pro level, mostly soccer not to mention it's almost mandatory to support a team in State of Origin (Rugby) in my state. And the latest FIFA titles have the women's roster IIRC, even made it something of a point of sale.
And if I'm honest I have yet to see an ad for sports anything that is specifically for males. Even supporter clothing options always have a men's and women's size next to each other in advertising. At least where I live.

Have to say, I'm really digging the mini movie like promotions for games lately.