Women's Clothes

[ImmortalFlame]

Reposting for relevance:

Before I post on a few points, I suppose it needs to be asked again: @Sartre @ImmortalFlame Just what is the expectation/example of "marketing towards women" here?

Conventionally (or stereotypically) it involves bright colours and aesthetics (usually with dominant pink and purple colour palettes), emphasis on emotional drama over spectacle, and female characters and relationships as a primary focus.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Then don't buy your girls these toys if you dislike them. Holy crap.

Congratulations, contestant! You just won tonight's star prize!
That's all for today, but please join us again next week for another exciting episode of... "Let's Completely Miss the Bloody Point!"

Seriously, I'm done with you.

 

[Rival]

Conventionally (or stereotypically) it involves bright colours and aesthetics (usually with dominant pink and purple colour palettes), emphasis on emotional drama over spectacle, and female characters and relationships as a primary focus.

I am a girl and none of this appeals to me especially not romance.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am a girl and none of this appeals to me especially not romance.

When companies want girls to buy their products, that's generally what they go with. Sad thing is that when they do that stuff, it does tend to work, which irks me.

 

[Revoltingest]

And yet, weirdly, he still shows less skin than Dave Bautista used to:

I can understand that Drax would be expected to wear more in public.
Long pants are appropriate cuz only the fashion challenged (like me)
would wear cargo shorts.

 

[Revoltingest]

And yet, weirdly, he still shows less skin than Dave Bautista used to:

The Marval universe seems to have all types.
Mystique wears nothing, but Storm dresses quite modestly.

 

[SomeRandom]

Conventionally (or stereotypically) it involves bright colours and aesthetics (usually with dominant pink and purple colour palettes), emphasis on emotional drama over spectacle, and female characters and relationships as a primary focus.

Ew. No wonder I was never into stereotypically girly things growing up. The ad campaigns sounds like they were nothing but idiotic mush with pretty colours so as to distract it's infantile audience. Blech.

Also unrelated, but does anyone else think the new Wonder Woman outfit looks eerily similar to Xena's?

 

[SomeRandom]

In the earlier context, "marketing towards men" was referring to marketing towards men as a core group. Not just marketing towards a group in which men existed.

I don't know how one would define the expectation. One of those things were it's more of a know it when you see it.

The only videogame marketing towards women I have seen is candycrush ads and nintendo.

Well, that could be down to statistics. Whilst there are more females playing on Nintendo devices (hence Nintendo seizing on the opportunity to exploit their new widening market) statistically speaking more women do in fact play mobile puzzle games than men do and are more likely to be found playing hand held (mobile.) Whilst the core female gamers tend to be on PC mostly. Despite this, they still don't make up the core audience according to statistics for a lot of the mainstream games you see being promoted (sports, action, adventure and strategy.) Women are more likely to play puzzle games, farming/family simulation games or RPGs/MMOs, depending on the type of gamer they are. Marketing would therefore concern itself more with men by default when marketing their titles. Though it should be argued that they could bring in more paying customers if they were gender neutral, which often times marketing campaigns seem to be anyway. At least in Australia they seem to be.

Here's a link if you want I guess. I suggest going to where they break down the genre preferences for males and females about half way down the page.
Women and video games - Wikipedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's a link if you want I guess. I suggest going to where they break down the genre preferences for males and females about half way down the page.
Women and video games - Wikipedia

That's interesting that women women way heavily outnumber men on the tile-match puzzle games, yet those games require skills that men are stereotyped to excel at.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Wow, so actual stereotypes are the expectation for marketing? I am genuinely disappointed by that.

In the post that originated the challenge it was put forward to "name three major "triple-A" published games that are marketed to women or girls". To me, this read as "Name 3 AAA games that appeal to women", of which I did. More on this in a bit. I'm not about to condone or promote stereotypes, so I'm not going to wrack my brain for a game that uses pastel pallets and focuses on romance and feelings. I feel like that's pandering, and the actual interests of Gamer girls are vast and varied beyond Barbie-esque games. Also being AAA, Candy Crush is out of the running, as are several really good Indie titles like Life is Strange.

So, on with the list that I provided.

Mass Effect 3

While the whole Mass Effect trilogy allowed players to play as a female Shepard (and have relationships with both men and women indiscriminately), Mass Effect 3 was the first in the series to have a pre-rendered trailer featuring the female version of Shepard.

The merits of Mass Effect towards female Gamers almost goes without saying. As a female Shepard, players take on the role of a strong, commanding female protagonist, and are able to pursue relationships as they please, be it homosexual, heterosexual, or even bisexual.

Borderlands

This one had some criticism, and I'll be pulling some statements to address.

"A strong female character does not make something marketed towards women, and I have to ask who are these strong women in Borderlands? The teenagerish Lilith and her dating/boyfriend issues?"

On the note of Lilith, in the Borderlands universe Lilith is a human sub-species known as a Siren. There are only ever six within the whole galaxy, and they are all female. Sirens are renowned in the Borderlands universe as being incredibly strong, powerful, and often independent women. Regarding Lilith's relationship with Roland, I do remind that during the campaign of Borderlands 2, Roland was the "damsel in distress," and it was up to Lilith and the Vault Hunters to save him. Quite a shift in that dynamic.

On the note of Sirens, Borderlands 2 also stars Maya.

Moxxi who is pretty much made for the male gaze?

Or bisexual and lesbian women. To note, in the game canon Moxxi is a renowned bisexual herself.

The Mecromancer who you had to pay extra for?

Still a character in the game, and yes Gaige was both incredibly intelligent and independent. Other (quite) notable women in the game are Jenny Springs and Athena (a canonical lesbian couple in the game,) Sasha and Fiona, Patricia Tannis, Ellie, and even the vulgar and lovable Tiny Tina.

Rise of the Tomb Raider

Lara Croft has been completely re-branded. No longer a pair of breasts with guns, she is an average-build, grizzled survivor with an intelligence to match her determination. Even in Tomb Raider, when everything that could go wrong did go wrong, Lara rose above, pulled her friends together (even saved her friends, several of whom were men,) and got everyone off the island relatively intact.

In this new series, Lara is independent. No seduction, no sexualization of her as a character; just a strong character giving female gamers a pretty good role model, as well as yet another character to cosplay as. (I've seen several "New Croft" cosplays at three different ComiCons.)

Star Wars Battlefront II

The multiplayer of Battlefront has always included the best of the Star Wars heroes and heroines, allowing female gamers to play as such figures as Leia Organa, Adi Gallia, and Shaak Ti. Battlefront II will span all three eras, expanding the playable characters; Rey [Kenobi] is known to be a playable character, and others may include Padme Amidala, Ahsoka Tano, Asajj Ventris, Commander Phasma, and perhaps more.

In addition to this, Battlefront II has a campaign which follows the story of a female Imperial Special Forcers Stormtrooper.

All in all, times have completely changed. I'm not doubting that sexism does not exist in the culture, or that there aren't sexist gamers out there. But anymore, marketing is not geared towards one sex or another, as both men and women enjoy a wide range of game types. Marketing these days tend to show off the game, what it's about, and don't seem to rely on appealing to any gender stereotype to draw in a player base. Some examples:

Borderlands: The Handsome Collection
Rise of the Tomb Raider
The Witcher III: Wild Hunt
Battlefield 1
Star Wars: Battlefront II

Lastly, I absolutely do not trust the chart that has been linked from Wikipedia, as I have played games like Halo with women, well past 2004 - where they indicate on the ratio chart that there are no female console gamers. Which is funny, as further down they note studies done in Halo 3's multiplayer, which released in 2007.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's interesting that women women way heavily outnumber men on the tile-match puzzle games, yet those games require skills that men are stereotyped to excel at.

It is indeed. In some ways the stats do fly in the face of convention.

That said the tile match games are usually found in the "hand held" subset of gamers, which women do often outnumber the men. At least in that particular group. So it may speak moreso on the habits of gamers specifically rather than skill set they attract. I mean tile match puzzles are usually seen as "casual" because they're not really console/PC type games.
Either way the stats do reflect some interesting nuances.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What's odd with that is that in every job that I've worked recently, it's always the guys who play mobile games on their phones in their downtime.

 

[SomeRandom]

Wow, so actual stereotypes are the expectation for marketing? I am genuinely disappointed by that.

As am I. Also a little shocked.
I have yet to meet a person over the age of 10 who looks at some promotion of well anything and declare it for boys because it had explosions or for girls because it was shiny or romantic.

Also wasn't the rebooted Lara Croft designed by old school female fans? And not once did any of the advertising to me scream "male." Horizon Zero Dawn has an explosion here and there and again it never occurred to me or anyone familiar with the game (at least the ones I know) to consider it or the marketing for it "male." It's like calling all the Hunger Games ads male orientated. I mean there are male fans but come on, kick *** female as your lead screams girl oriented to me.
The stereotypes might work and are prominent for products for children. But for anyone outside of that demographic I don't think anyone really cares one way or the other. Because we move past such simplistic thinking after we leave primary/Middle school lol.
If an ad intrigues someone they'll just buy it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Wow, so actual stereotypes are the expectation for marketing? I am genuinely disappointed by that.

In the post that originated the challenge it was put forward to "name three major "triple-A" published games that are marketed to women or girls". To me, this read as "Name 3 AAA games that appeal to women", of which I did.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. But if you look at the post I was responding to when I made that challenge, it says the following:

"There are 10 of thousands of titles available for every audience. Just because not every title is to everyone's taste should not an issue at all. Let's say you're watching T.V., and a television show comes on that you strongly dislike, do you simply change the channel and find something that you do enjoy, or do you demand that it be cancelled regardless the fact that the show has a strong following?"

"An endless variety of games are already readily accessible to all walks of life."

In this context, it's clear that my challenge wasn't to produce examples of games which could "potentially" appeal to women (all the games you listed still have a predominantly male fanbase), it was to present examples of this supposed variety within the mainstream gaming industry. I.E, alternatives to the common, heavily male-marketed games that instead market to women or girls. Because the issue isn't that there aren't games that appeal to women, it's that the number of games that are deigned and marketed specifically FOR women is absolutely miniscule compared to the number that are designed and marketed to men, and while this could be written off as merely the will of the market doing what it does, recent changes in gaming demographics give credibility to the notion that women have always been a huge, untapped potential market for computer games that have simply been ignored by large gaming companies. In this context, the argument of "It doesn't matter if certain games don't appeal to women because they can just go and play the game that appeal to them instead" is fantastically missing the point, and also fails to acknowledge that game specifically aimed at women and girls are practically non-existent on the "triple-A" level.

More on this in a bit. I'm not about to condone or promote stereotypes, so I'm not going to wrack my brain for a game that uses pastel pallets and focuses on romance and feelings. I feel like that's pandering, and the actual interests of Gamer girls are vast and varied beyond Barbie-esque games. Also being AAA, Candy Crush is out of the running, as are several really good Indie titles like Life is Strange.

I'm not fond of the stereotypes of boys loving guns and men wearing army fatigues, but nevertheless when a company wants to bring in male audiences that is what they paste all over their covers. The point is, as outlined above, a response to that disparity. I'm not saying gendered marketing is a good thing, I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of games are overwhelmingly aimed at the stereotypical male market where only a fraction are aimed at the stereotypical female market, so the argument of "there's diversity in the industry, so if you don't like particular kind of game you can just stick to the kinds of games you like" falls flat when the majority games themselves are designed to appeal to a very strict demographic while there are virtually no games aimed at others.

So, on with the list that I provided.

Mass Effect 3

While the whole Mass Effect trilogy allowed players to play as a female Shepard (and have relationships with both men and women indiscriminately), Mass Effect 3 was the first in the series to have a pre-rendered trailer featuring the female version of Shepard.

The merits of Mass Effect towards female Gamers almost goes without saying. As a female Shepard, players take on the role of a strong, commanding female protagonist, and are able to pursue relationships as they please, be it homosexual, heterosexual, or even bisexual.

But you can also be a male Shepherd. The main marketing spin used to sell the Mass Effect story is one of giving the player agency over their decision and their personal ideal of Shepherd. A female Shepherd was chosen over a male Shepherd sure, but only after two games of using only a male Shepherd in practically any promotional material. I'm willing to give you this one, but I still don't think that ME3 was clearly marketed towards a strictly female audience when it was designed with a far broader demographic and still heavily favours combat, dark aesthetics and lots of guns.

Borderlands

This one had some criticism, and I'll be pulling some statements to address.

"A strong female character does not make something marketed towards women, and I have to ask who are these strong women in Borderlands? The teenagerish Lilith and her dating/boyfriend issues?"

On the note of Lilith, in the Borderlands universe Lilith is a human sub-species known as a Siren. There are only ever six within the whole galaxy, and they are all female. Sirens are renowned in the Borderlands universe as being incredibly strong, powerful, and often independent women. Regarding Lilith's relationship with Roland, I do remind that during the campaign of Borderlands 2, Roland was the "damsel in distress," and it was up to Lilith and the Vault Hunters to save him. Quite a shift in that dynamic.

On the note of Sirens, Borderlands 2 also stars Maya.

Moxxi who is pretty much made for the male gaze?

Or bisexual and lesbian women. To note, in the game canon Moxxi is a renowned bisexual herself.

The Mecromancer who you had to pay extra for?

Still a character in the game, and yes Gaige was both incredibly intelligent and independent. Other (quite) notable women in the game are Jenny Springs and Athena (a canonical lesbian couple in the game,) Sasha and Fiona, Patricia Tannis, Ellie, and even the vulgar and lovable Tiny Tina.

Once again, "the game has women in it" isn't the same as "marketing to women".

Rise of the Tomb Raider

Lara Croft has been completely re-branded. No longer a pair of breasts with guns, she is an average-build, grizzled survivor with an intelligence to match her determination. Even in Tomb Raider, when everything that could go wrong did go wrong, Lara rose above, pulled her friends together (even saved her friends, several of whom were men,) and got everyone off the island relatively intact.

In this new series, Lara is independent. No seduction, no sexualization of her as a character; just a strong character giving female gamers a pretty good role model, as well as yet another character to cosplay as. (I've seen several "New Croft" cosplays at three different ComiCons.)

Lara Croft wasn't redesigned to appeal strictly to women - she was re-designed to make her more universal. In actual gameplay terms, her gender is now a kind of non-issue, aside from a few troubling scenes in which male assailants attempt to sexually assault her. The games are still marketed towards men.

Star Wars Battlefront II

The multiplayer of Battlefront has always included the best of the Star Wars heroes and heroines, allowing female gamers to play as such figures as Leia Organa, Adi Gallia, and Shaak Ti. Battlefront II will span all three eras, expanding the playable characters; Rey [Kenobi] is known to be a playable character, and others may include Padme Amidala, Ahsoka Tano, Asajj Ventris, Commander Phasma, and perhaps more.

In addition to this, Battlefront II has a campaign which follows the story of a female Imperial Special Forcers Stormtrooper.

See above.

All in all, times have completely changed. I'm not doubting that sexism does not exist in the culture, or that there aren't sexist gamers out there. But anymore, marketing is not geared towards one sex or another, as both men and women enjoy a wide range of game types. Marketing these days tend to show off the game, what it's about, and don't seem to rely on appealing to any gender stereotype to draw in a player base. Some examples:

Borderlands: The Handsome Collection
Rise of the Tomb Raider
The Witcher III: Wild Hunt
Battlefield 1
Star Wars: Battlefront II

Lastly, I absolutely do not trust the chart that has been linked from Wikipedia, as I have played games like Halo with women, well past 2004 - where they indicate on the ratio chart that there are no female console gamers. Which is funny, as further down they note studies done in Halo 3's multiplayer, which released in 2007.

Things are getting better, but the point of my challenge was for someone to provide this segment of the gaming spectrum where women are actually the target demographic, not just present examples of games which have female characters or audiences (largely as a smaller share of the predominantly male audience).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So I'm confused.

Some feminists (and others) complain when video game producers create women figures wearing scanty clothes or are near nude. They say this is sexualisation and sexism.

However, when people lately complained that Wonder Woman is dressed like a bit of a **** the same feminists turned around and said it's empowering and that women should be able to show off their bodies.

What's the difference?

Perceived message.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While the whole Mass Effect trilogy allowed players to play as a female Shepard

So? Players can choose/create female characters in pro-wrestling games. That doesn't mean they are marketed towards women.

Regarding Lilith's relationship with Roland, I do remind that during the campaign of Borderlands 2, Roland was the "damsel in distress," and it was up to Lilith and the Vault Hunters to save him. Quite a shift in that dynamic.

Roland is a soldier. I don't remember the specifics in the quest/story, but it's kind of expected when you're out fighting on the front lines to run into some trouble.

On the note of Sirens, Borderlands 2 also stars Maya.

So?

Or bisexual and lesbian women. To note, in the game canon Moxxi is a renowned bisexual herself.

If they had lesbians in mind when they made Moxxi, it furthers my point that she was made for the male gaze (I'm assuming you have seen her pizza boxes?). And it's very doubtful bisexual women were even a thought, because bisexuals are frequently and often neglected, ignored, and thought to not exist.

Still a character in the game, and yes Gaige was both incredibly intelligent and independent.

She doesn't even have a story or much of a background.

Jenny Springs and Athena (a canonical lesbian couple in the game,) Sasha and Fiona,

I have to admit I don't remembers those.

Patricia Tannis

You mean the cold hearted ***** who also is a poor representation of Asperger's?

Ellie

The fat bottomed crazy *****?

even the vulgar and lovable Tiny Tina.

The epitome of female psycho *****?

Lara Croft has been completely re-branded.

I've not seen the rebrand, but the original series was most definitely not marketed towards women. It even came out during a time when it was believed female gamers didn't/barely existed at all.

The multiplayer of Battlefront has always included the best of the Star Wars heroes and heroines, allowing female gamers to play as such figures as Leia Organa, Adi Gallia, and Shaak Ti. Battlefront II will span all three eras, expanding the playable characters; Rey [Kenobi] is known to be a playable character, and others may include Padme Amidala, Ahsoka Tano, Asajj Ventris, Commander Phasma, and perhaps more.

Leia and Mon Mothma were the only two female characters in the original trilogy. The second one we got Padme and her handmaidens. Star Wars has pretty much always been cowboys and ninjas in space, three things that just are not marketed towards women.

The Witcher III: Wild Hunt

Definitely not marketed towards women.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I have yet to meet a person over the age of 10 who looks at some promotion of well anything and declare it for boys because it had explosions or for girls because it was shiny or romantic.

Even marketing for games towards kids has changed, and isn't so much for "boys or girls". Look at any of the ads for the LEGO games.

In this context, it's clear that my challenge wasn't to produce examples of games which could "potentially" appeal to women (all the games you listed still have a predominantly male fanbase), it was to present examples of this supposed variety within the mainstream gaming industry.

Most of the games that I listed (Battlefront II isn't out just yet) have a significant female fanbase. I know this; I've played with them (and that's the great thing about online games, it's not limited to what I see directly). Even games like Halo have a healthy female fanbase; I've never bothered to gauge ratios because frankly it's never been an issue for us all. And by "us all," I mean the people who are there to play the game, not the media that critiques the game or the "feminists" who deride the game yet have zero interest or stake in it.

And yet the comment that sparked your challenge does have a kernel of merit; there are a vast array of games out there on multiple platforms. What kind of game are you looking for?

I.E, alternatives to the common, heavily male-marketed games

the issue isn't that there aren't games that appeal to women, it's that the number of games that are deigned and marketed specifically FOR women is absolutely miniscule compared to the number that are designed and marketed to men

I asked once before, and nothing was provided; what exactly makes these games marketed towards men? Is it just the stereotypes of guns and war? This ad is marketing towards men; video games just don't really do that. I get Game Informer every month, and it's marketed towards... gamers. Indiscriminate of gender.

"Recent changes in gaming demographics" doesn't translate - at least to me - into "women are gaming, break out the pastels!" Because in those demographics you're going to find women who enjoy war, guns, cars, and everything that's stereotypically pushed towards men. So how do you market to them? These games are marketed to whoever enjoys them, which is why my examples given explore how women can enjoy and find part in several AAA titles. Which, if you ask me, is the far better option; rather than continuing this polarizing dichotomy of Blue and Pink, games are truly for everyone.

What I'm seeing here instead is quite shocking. Constantly I've heard "Feminism is for everyone!" yet I'm being told here that what's wanted--no, needed, is a game that is for women only, no men allowed. Inclusion is being given, but exclusion is being demanded contrary to every movement goal that I've ever been told.

I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of games are overwhelmingly aimed at the stereotypical male market

The only problem is that you're not showing how. Saying "war and fatigues" falls flat on it's face when women can like those things too.

But you can also be a male Shepherd.

And? From the very first game, a female Shepard is possible. In fact I'd argue that Jennifer Hale does a far better job of playing Shepard than whoever the guy is. What's more, while choosing the gender was always the plan, Shepard was written as a woman.

It should also be noted that as I stated before, I'm not following stereotypes of marketing, I'm arguing for inclusion in games. Women can be gun-toting, dark warriors as well.

The games are still marketed towards men.

HOW?

So? Players can choose/create female characters in pro-wrestling games. That doesn't mean they are marketed towards women.

I've actually got a couple female friends on my Facebook who love pro-wrestling.

Roland is a soldier. I don't remember the specifics in the quest/story,

That's what his class is, but really he's a good guy bandit along with the rest of the Crimson Raiders. And in the storyline, he's captured by a group of bandits called the Bloodshots, who are hoping to collect a bounty that's on his head. Hardly frontlines POW scenario.

If they had lesbians in mind when they made Moxxi, it furthers my point that she was made for the male gaze

I really don't see how having lesbians in mind translates to "made for men." Bisexuality was also obviously a thought, as Moxxi is canonically bisexual herself. Borderlands 2 is actually quite populated with homosexual and bisexual characters.

She doesn't even have a story or much of a background.

Uh, yeah she does.

You mean the cold hearted ***** who also is a poor representation of Asperger's?

Before I go into this, I'm curious how you think she's a poor representation of Asperger's. Especially since I don't think it's explicitly stated that she has that condition.

The fat bottomed crazy *****?

Odd that in a discussion of inclusion and combating stereotypes, we're fat-shaming. Ellie is awesome.

I've not seen the rebrand, but the original series was most definitely not marketed towards women.

Which is why I'm talking about the rebrand.

Leia and Mon Mothma were the only two female characters in the original trilogy. The second one we got Padme and her handmaidens.

Those are the movies. The game is focused on the eras. So we'll also likely see characters like Sabine Wren from Rebels and Aurra Sing the bounty hunter, and I know for certain that it'll have Jyn Erso. Maybe even Mara Jade.

Definitely not marketed towards women.

Oh really? Because in the Witcher III you not only get to play as Cirilla, but the game just loves showcasing Geralt's bare chest. I mean, if Moxxi is "obviously" for guys, then who's that for?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

No the expectation for marketing is not to market to a gender, but market the experience of the game.

Which is what marketing of video games is these days.

 

[VioletVortex]

I am very opposed to feminism due to the extreme universalism of those who use the label (many try to remove the social roles of gender completely), but I can understand why feminists may disapprove of women taking sexual roles in video games while praising the character of Wonder Woman as a symbol of female empowerment. In the video games, the females (regardless of their actual roles) tend to come off as images, whereas Wonder Woman is a lead character presented as strong and intelligent. Also, video games are marketed towards males, and truth be told, this is indicated by the sexual depictions of attractive women on the cover pictures. Furthermore, Wonder Woman is played consensually by an actual woman, whereas the games use animations made by men.

I think the whole thing is ridiculous. By the feminist definition, men are also sexualized in video games, with masculine attitudes and ripped physiques. Who really cares? It's a ****ing character, no one is being harmed. While both genders have their physical roles in life, they also share the role of turning each other on. At the same time however, the depictions of women in video games are too stereotypical to have any arousing affect on me.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

In the video games, the females (regardless of their actual roles) tend to come off as images

What? I could name you a slew of female characters in video games that have very prominent roles.

video games are marketed towards males, and truth be told, this is indicated by the sexual depictions of attractive women on the cover pictures.

Ah, we're getting somewhere with the marketing. Which games, and which covers?

whereas the games use animations made by men.

No. Anymore, video games use motion capture. So women characters are played by women; typically the women who also do the voice acting, so that their facial captures can match more easily.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've actually got a couple female friends on my Facebook who love pro-wrestling.

So? Pro-wrestling is very heavily advertised towards men. It doesn't mean there are no women who like it, it just means their primary demograph are males, particularly young males. It's basically theater, but it's very testosterone driven.

I really don't see how having lesbians in mind translates to "made for men." Bisexuality was also obviously a thought, as Moxxi is canonically bisexual herself.

I know she is. But, that's "sexy." In reality though, if bisexuals aren't ignored, they're sexualized, typically sexualized bisexual women by men. Yes, some women as well, but I doubt they had that in mind.

Especially since I don't think it's explicitly stated that she has that condition.

It is, and she's just straight up rude and has a very nasty superiority complex, not the unintended bluntness that unintentionally hurts feelings and rational/logical thinking that those with Asperger's are primed for.

Odd that in a discussion of inclusion and combating stereotypes, we're fat-shaming. Ellie is awesome.

That's because she is a stereotype.

Uh, yeah she does.

I obviously haven't found it yet then.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am very opposed to feminism due to the extreme universalism of those who use the label

That's like saying there is an extreme universalism in Christianity.