Women's Clothes

[Rival]

In fairness Wonder Woman doesn't really need the armour. She's basically invulnerable.

You're my best friend.

 

[Skwim]

Just so you know, she has been trying to keep up the times.

Hold on. It's said that in 1994 she was given a thong. Really?

YUP.

.

 

[Flankerl]

It's an alcohol ad making rape a spectacle.

Looks weird. Probably would portray it differently.

Why does whether the characters be portrayed through art or through staged photograph matter?
If the ad was two drawn characters, it would still be making an issue of rape.

Now we are already at rape. I still remember when it was just about loosely clothed female characters in video games. Oh well.

Basically, it really doesn't matter whether the characters are portrayed through video or "pixels". Their result can still be damaging.

So if a "child" is killed in a video game who has to go to prison?

Anita is as much of a feminist as I am a far-right authoritarian.

No true Scots etc.

So when you said you had screenshots of male characters in games that were only there to look sexy, you lied?

"only"
Never wrote that. Oh well.

but most of those women aren't often named characters

Funny because most men in video games aren't named characters. They are just there to be slaughtered.

I can give you lots of examples where, beyond physical attributes, the female characters are incredibly thin on the ground in terms of personality, and these include the entire female cast of Dead or Alive and Soul Calibur (and plenty of other fighting games).

Yes because the male characters of DoA and SC are so complicated.
DoA... lol literally one of the best fighting game series ever with revolutionising new fighting game features and all the current gen feminists can do is whine about the swinging boobs.

I'll never get to play DoA Xtreme 3 because of you lot.

If you think the main concern is purely about modes of dress, you are not capable of debating this subject maturely.

*yawn* I've been playing video games since the NES. Girls like me had lots of fun and you are trying to destroy it because you actually don't really care but because you can.

They are representations of people. The image you see on a film screen isn't a real person - it's just a projection of light - but it represents people and is supposed to reflect a real person.

Okay I am going to play some Virtua Fighter, will you call the cops? I am after all beating people up.
That's your logic. Call the police. There are people who even play games where they conquer entire countries, continents, if not the world or galaxy. Madmen! Genocide! Mass murder!
Call the police now.

You're not educated enough to tell me that.

Implying.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Examples of other toys marketed to young boys over the years:

Examples of other toys marketed to young girls over the years:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In fairness Wonder90 F to c Woman doesn't really need the armour. She's basically invulnerable.

That's why I mentioned she is a comic book character. But still it fits the larger theme of women being given "eye-candy armor." Not to the extend of the WoW example, but for the most part WW fights in a bathing suit.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"only"
Never wrote that. Oh well.

Brickjectivity wrote:

"Sometimes the women in a game are only there to be sexy."

To which you said:

"But men aren't? Do I need to pull out the screenshots?"

Implying that there are male characters in games that are ONLY there to be sexy. Screenshots please.

Funny because most men in video games aren't named characters. They are just there to be slaughtered.

That has literally nothing to do with anything.

Yes because the male characters of DoA and SC are so complicated.

Compared to the women, yes.

DoA... lol literally one of the best fighting game series ever with revolutionising new fighting game features and all the current gen feminists can do is whine about the swinging boobs.

If you're just going to continue to miss the point and childishly oversimplify, you're not going to be taken seriously in this discussion.

I'll never get to play DoA Xtreme 3 because of you lot.

And that's what keeps me up at night.

*yawn* I've been playing video games since the NES. Girls like me had lots of fun and you are trying to destroy it because you actually don't really care but because you can.

I've been playing games since the Sinclair ZX-Spectrum. And this comment just proves you have no real grasp of nuanced or complex issues. Nobody wants to "destroy" gaming - that's just bloody stupid.

Okay I am going to play some Virtua Fighter, will you call the cops? I am after all beating people up.

That's your logic.

Actually, it's nobody's logic. You're just continuing to be obtuse.

Call the police. There are people who even play games where they conquer entire countries, continents, if not the world or galaxy. Madmen! Genocide! Mass murder!
Call the police now.

Not my fault you don't understand what "representation" means and how it can affect people. You're just not mature enough to debate this issue.

 

[Skwim]

I don't understand why people get so in a fuss about criticism.
If someone made a pro-nazi game I would call it anti-semetic.

It could possibly be, but not necessarily. Keep in mind that Nazism was more than anti-Semitic.

.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The people in fictional media (be it in photos or in video game characters) are not real people and are only representations of people. These representations of people can still have a negative influence over people.

But yet we don't see this carrying over into the real world, where we would expect places like Canada, Japan, Sweden, and everywhere else to have serious problems with violence. But we don't see this happening. And even studies that access violence and aggression and exposure to the media are frequently standing on very shaky ground and are producing results in the lab that aren't being seen in the real world.
Now, I don't believe the media doesn't influence us at all, but it seems the effects are often overstated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm so sick of people whining over GTA. They're cartoonish parodies of American culture and also pay tribute to crime movies like Scarface. It's not supposed to be taken seriously and the NPCs are generally unlikeable twits and trash, on purpose. It's like whining over a Tarantino movie. If you expect GTA to be PC, you're playing the wrong game and need to move along.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So I'm confused.

Some feminists (and others) complain when video game producers create women figures wearing scanty clothes or are near nude. They say this is sexualisation and sexism.

However, when people lately complained that Wonder Woman is dressed like a bit of a **** the same feminists turned around and said it's empowering and that women should be able to show off their bodies.

What's the difference?

**** shaming is telling women they're not allowed to be as sexually free as we accept men can be. Having a double standard where sexy men getting laid on their own terms is empowering for men but shameful for women. Re: A female version of James Bond who gets all the men is not inherently any worse.
In feminism as I see it, there is no problem with women dressing provocatively if it's their will to do it.
In media the lines blur because fictional characters have questionable agency. Does it make sense that this character behaves this way or do they exist as pure titillation for men? In video games, it traditionally has been the latter. It also has problems with equal body representation which is significant in games with lots of male variety and only one female type: the sex kitten

In WW's story, her outfit is a product of her character story, but also made to look more like a fantasy version of Athenian armor, which makes sense. But her story is what makes it different than, say, Kerrigan and her ridiculous chittinous high heels and night elf boob and butt windows. WW actively explains she doesn't have sexual hang ups. Chastising everyone else's need for 'proper' clothes when her attire is very appropriate for the brawling she does.

In fact I always thought WW's outfit was one of the least offensive in comics as it's usually essentially a leotard with some metal bits.

 

[Father Heathen]

So you don't think it's reasonable for a woman who would otherwise enjoy playing, say, a GTA game to be put off by the depiction of women in the game?

Of course it's reasonable, which is why they should give their money to one of GTA's competitors by finding a comparable alternative. If there is a high enough demand, someone will capitalize upon it. It's silly to suggest that little Timmy shouldn't be allowed to enjoy milk anymore just because little Sally down the street is lactose intolerant. Sally should indeed have an alternative that she can equally enjoy, but why should it be at Timmy's expense?

Whether you accept it or not, the depiction of various groups in games can act as a barrier to people who would otherwise be interested in playing them, and telling such people "Too bad, buy something else" is just dodging the issue.

No, it's not. There are 10 of thousands of titles available for every audience. Just because not every title is to everyone's taste should not be an issue at all. Let's say you're watching T.V., and a television show comes on that you strongly dislike, do you simply change the channel and find something that you do enjoy, or do you demand that it be cancelled regardless the fact that the show has a strong following?

Furthermore, what about the effect such depictions have on the people the games are aggressively sold to? If you have games companies advertising most of their games to young men, and those companies almost uniformly portray women in simple, objectified or passive roles, this can have a knock-on effect on the perception of women among that group. At best, it can act as enablement of negative attitudes towards women and normalizing of misogynistic tendencies - something we've already seen, in a very public fashion, to be a serious problem in the modern gaming community.

Like I've already stated in the thread. People are capable differentiating fictional entertainment from reality. I've yet to hear of any cases where children were injured by trying to break bricks open with their fists while looking for coins, but if anyone is really that easily influenced by a game then they had preexisting mental issues, but that isn't the industry's responsibility. (btw, check the Mark Twain quote in my signature, which sums it up nicely.)

I don't think games have to pander to everybody, that's not the point. But I'm also keenly aware that as a white, heterosexual, middle-class male, the gaming industry has been almost exclusively pandering to me all my life, and I've realized in the last few years that this was a great detriment to many, many people who wish to play games but are made uncomfortable or outraged by the marginalization or objectification of their gender, race, culture or sexuality. I want gaming to be something all people feel comfortable doing and sharing, and while I'm also aware that there will always be niches of the industry that will remain elusive to certain sections of society, I would still rather live in a world where those niches ARE niches rather than practically the entirety of the industry.

But if you actually look at all of the games available, only a small fraction are guilty of these offenses. An endless variety of games are already readily accessible to all walks of life.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But yet we don't see this carrying over into the real world, where we would expect places like Canada, Japan, Sweden, and everywhere else to have serious problems with violence. But we don't see this happening. And even studies that access violence and aggression and exposure to the media are frequently standing on very shaky ground and are producing results in the lab that aren't being seen in the real world.
Now, I don't believe the media doesn't influence us at all, but it seems the effects are often overstated.

In term of violence, yes, but in terms of attitudes and behaviour towards women, homosexuals and minorities, gaming communities have a less than stellar reputation.

 

[Rival]

Does it make sense that this character behaves this way or do they exist as pure titillation for men?

I'm just not understanding why having characters that exist purely for the male gaze is a problem.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

When the entire point of the character is sexual satisfaction for the opposite sex, I would say it's objectifying.

What about violent satisfaction? Or romantic satisfaction? That's the thing with video games; it's all "objectification." All characters, whether based off real people, modeled off real people, or entirely crafted from the skeleton up are objects. They are not actual people.

No I didn't.

That's how it read to me. A mountain seems to be made quite literally from a mole-hill, as prostitutes in GTA are a very, very minor part of the game.

I said "what about them?" because I see it as entirely a way to distract from the former points...

As I see it, objectifying is objectifying. Whether it's male NPC's being gunned down or women NPC's being prostitutes. But as mentioned above, they actually are objects, not real people, so the whole outcry about objectifying is silly.

Oh yes. You're entirely correct. Since a group of pixels is not a person and is only a representation, nothing bad can come out of said representation.

I think you completely missed the point. The ad that you posted is a photograph of a real person. Chun Li or "Female Prostitute 001" are not. Saying "a group of pixels is not a person" means that video game characters are not real people. They don't have private lives outside of their role in the game, they don't have independent thought, etc. The woman in your vodka ad does.[/QUOTE]

I don't see a bias in acknowledging and pointing out that both women and men characters are portrayed as/used as objects in video games.

Which would be all well and fine, only the "role" of a woman NPC here is seemingly under fire as objectifying, when doing a similar thing to male NPC's is brushed off.

To say the portrayal of women is a problem, then it logically follows that it is damaging for men as well because it helps to perpetuate the "macho culture" that men are expected to live up to.

Does it really, though? Or are the dudebros who perpetuate that culture the problem?

Or you could take it to reinforce the "culture of me" where the player comes first in anything and everything.

For better or worse, that's the entire point of video games. You get to escape the real world - where one is not the most important person of all - and have it be all about you. Personally I see mentalities like "The Customer is Always Right" as far more enforcing of the "Culture of Me" than video games.

 

[Father Heathen]

In term of violence, yes, but in terms of attitudes and behaviour towards women, homosexuals and minorities, gaming communities have a less than stellar reputation.

That's a cultural/social/parental issue. Games don't magically regress maturity; it was lacking to begin with.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm just not understanding why having characters that exist purely for the male gaze is a problem.

Especially considering that female developers could create their own eye candy if they desired.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm just not understanding why having characters that exist purely for the male gaze is a problem.

Ideally it wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't such a disparity in representation. And there wasn't such a problem with male gaze in real life which makes inclusion in escapism more difficuot for women. Ditto body variety issues.
Just like there isn't anything inherently wrong with 'fridge women's or using rape as a quick and dirty emotional or dramatic tool, but it's abused so heavily without regard for implications that it's become problematic.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Of course it's reasonable, which is why they should give their money to one of GTA's competitors by finding a comparable alternative. If there is a high enough demand, someone will capitalize upon it. It's silly to suggest that little Timmy shouldn't be allowed to enjoy milk anymore just because little Sally down the street is lactose intolerant. Sally should indeed have an alternative that she can equally enjoy, but why should it be at Timmy's expense?

I see what you're saying, but this isn't a zero-sum game. In what way is appealing to wider demographics in any way a reduction or subtraction of the enjoyment had from an individual? Nobody is going to "take GTA away" from Timmy, and I'm fairly certain that Timmy's enjoyment of GTA doesn't entirely hinge upon GTA's negative depiction of women, minorities and homosexuals. To use your analogy, it's not taking milk away from Timmy because Sally is lactose intolerant. It's asking "maybe this milk shouldn't be so aggressively marketed towards Timmy to the exclusion of other kids, like Sally, who would otherwise also enjoy milk, and why is it that 90% of milk-based products are excluding Sally when she herself really likes milk?".

No, it's not. There are 10 of thousands of titles available for every audience. Just because not every title is to everyone's taste should not an issue at all. Let's say you're watching T.V., and a television show comes on that you strongly dislike, do you simply change the channel and find something that you do enjoy, or do you demand that it be cancelled regardless the fact that the show has a strong following?

Once again, this is dodging the issue. The fact is that the games industry is absolutely saturated by titles aiming squarely at only one, very specific audience. Your argument would only work if there were thousands of other publishers and companies putting out games that could be enjoyed without exclusion by every group under the sun, but there is no such thing - especially in the "triple A" games industry, where everything is all practically the same gun-metal grey mush. The balance has only really started to be addressed on the indie scene, but mainstream games are still practically blind to potential minority markets, and mainstream games that are marketed to women or girls are virtually nonexistant, and games which are non-exclusionary are the exception rather than the rule.

Like I've already stated in the thread. People are capable differentiating fictional entertainment from reality. I've yet to hear of any cases where children were injured by trying to break bricks open while looking for coins, but if anyone is really that easily influenced by a game then they had preexisting mental issues, but that isn't the industry's responsibility. (btw, check the Mark Twain quote in my signature, which sums it up nicely.)

People can and are influenced by fictional media. If you are constantly fed a particular view by the media you consume, you well tend to gravitate more towards said view. Attitudes and behaviours aren't so obviously affected in people playing games like "I played a guy in a game who shot a bunch of people so I bought a gun and shot a bunch of people" - it's far more subtle and insidious than that. Once again, go and look at the gaming community's attitudes to almost any and all feminist criticism of games - or, heck, even this very thread! You're unlikely to see it yourself, but even your attitude is indicative of this; the attitude of "I've never seen this problem directly, therefore I don't take the subject seriously or give it serious consideration". It's that kind of attitude that this kind of representation creates, one where you've never personally been effected by the issue so it's not even existent, and I understand this attitude better than a lot of people because I have been there and thought that myself.

But if you actually look at all of the games available, only a small fraction are guilty of these offenses. An endless variety of games are already readily accessible to all walks of life.

Can you name me three major, "triple-A" published games that are marketed to women or girls?

 

[Rival]

And there wasn't such a problem with male gaze in real life which makes inclusion in escapism more difficuot for women.

Can you expand upon 'problem with male gaze in real life'?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Can you name me three major, "triple-A" published games that are marketed to women or girls?

Mass Effect 3 (even had a massive "FemShep" ad campaign)
Borderlands 2
Rise of the Tomb Raider
Mirror's Edge Catalyst
Star Wars Battlefront II

And even game series like Halo, the Elder Scrolls, and The Witcher.