Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[katiemygirl]

="atpollard, post: 4242769, member: 56780"]Repentence is a state of mind. A mental prerequisite to receive Faith.

Thank you for your honesty and your opinion.

I don't know where you get the idea that repentance is a prereq for faith. IMHO, it is the exact opposite. Faith precedes repentance. One must believe first, and then repentance will follow.

When I first believed that Jesus is who He claimed to be, it was His sacrifice and great love that caused me deep sorrow. That sorrow led me to repentance, and continues to lead me when I fall short..

I agree with you totally that it was the Holy Spirit who drew me to God, and He did it through His word.

I think the parable of the sower speaks to this topic very clearly.

 

[katiemygirl]

Great. So who's version or idea of ''works'' is the correct one in this context?

If you read all of Paul's letters, you will see that he battled the Judaizers constantly. They were trying to get the newly converted Gentile christians to keep the WORKS of the law of Moses. We see Paul's arguments against this repeatedly throughout his writings. IMHO, Paul writes about works of the Law in Ephesian 2:9. It was doing these works that the Jews were boasting about.

If the works in Ephesians 2:9 means no works of any kind, then please explain how making the decision to accept Jesus into your heart, repenting, and turning from your sins are not works. And how about confessing Jesus before men as Romans 10:9-10 tells us we must do to be saved? How is this not works?

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[atpollard]

I don't know how to define grace, MyGirl. If I did, I'd be more certain of what Paul means when he tells me, "By grace you are saved..." I do have some idea what others believe grace is. Evangelicals say it is God's unmerited favor, or love. Catholics say it is God's unmerited power to empower us to become more like Christ. So an Evangelical interprets Paul's words:

By [God's undeserved love] you are saved, through faith.
​

But a Catholic interprets Paul's words:

By [God's undeserved power] you are saved, through faith.​

The former believes nothing we do saves us. The latter believes only what we do by God's power saves us. Me? I believe this:

By [some method unknown to me] you are saved, through faith.​

So you see my dilemma? I must put faith in the method God uses--his love to declare me saved, or his power to make me able to save myself, or something else. But how can I put faith in what I do not know? I don't believe I can. So I'd infer this is a more precise rendering of how to be saved:

By [some method unknown to me] you are saved, through faith [and through wisdom].
​

For if I don't discover the wisdom to know what grace is, I'll never know what to put my faith in!

So I'm curious to hear more about what you believe grace is and how you know your understanding is correct. You said God's grace is a gift, but Evangelicals and Catholics say the same, and you see how they have opposing ideas about what kind of gift it is.

So please help me unwrap the gift of grace, as you know it. When I remove the gift wrap, what do I see? God's love, God's power, or something else?

This strikes me as not seeing the forest for the trees.
Read all of Ephesians Chapter 2.
Read it as a block of information.
What is Paul saying about who God is, what God wants, what God did and why God did it?

It is not 'Love' or 'Power'. That is a silly "which came first, the chicken or the egg" debate.
Clearly Chapter 2 demonstrates the Power of what God has done and the Love of what God has done.
The whole chapter talks about the power God employed and the power that God has bestowed.
The whole chapter talks about the love that God has demonstrated and the love that God has granted us the ability to have and show.

The importance of Grace is that it is from God and not wages that we have earned.
The important distinction is not 'Power' vs 'Love' (since "saved" demonstrates and requires both Power and Love on God's part).
The important distinction is 'unmerited' vs 'earned' (since it is God who saves and not Man who saves himself).

 

[atpollard]

I don't know where you get the idea that repentance is a prereq for faith.

Matthew 21:32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

... repent and believe
... repent and turn

Repentance appears to precede both thought and action ...
... a prerequisite for 'faith'?
(I think so.)
YMMV

That said, I completely agree that faith in and knowledge of Jesus and God will, in turn, produce still more repentance ... so in this we are in complete agreement.
I just see the need to acknowledge 'God's way not my way' as a form of repentance (since I was born believing 'My way, not God's way') that precedes Faith (believing enough to act on those beliefs).

 

[Spockrates]

Ahhhh dogs! My favorite of all God's creatures. I have two females, a border collie and an Australian shepherd. Both extremely smart. Both great frisbee catchers. And yours?

Do you believe in God? What about His Son Jesus? Are you saved?

One is a purebred male Jack Russell Terrier, the other a female schnauzer-chiuaua mix and the third is a male Labradoodle.

 

[Spockrates]

First let me say I admire your honesty, sincerity and demeanor in your posts. May the grace of our Lord be with you (whatever you think it may be). You're doing a great job!

I think everyone is in agreement that grace is an unmerited gift from God, which to me means an unearned and undeserved gift. But unearned and undeserved do not mean we don't have to do what Jesus says to do.

IMHO, some people, like the evangelicals, take the definition to the extreme saying faith ALONE saves, and whatever faith they have, comes as a gift directly from God, and is not a free will decision we make to get faith. Yet, the Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Getting faith is a decision, a choice we make to have or not have. Many hear the word, but choose to reject it for various reasons. Faith is a choice.

Others go to the opposite extreme saying it is our good works that save. Catholics fall into this category. You will often hear them say, "Old Joe was such a good guy. He is in heaven with Jesus now." Yet, Joe wasn't a follower of Jesus Christ. He didn't do the things Jesus told him to do.

Evangelicals will say that they cannot do a single thing to save themselves, yet if you ask any of them, they will tell you that they have to accept Jesus in their heart in order to be saved. Evangelical ministers preach this from their pulpits all the time. This seems like a big contradiction to me. Isn't accepting Jesus in your heart doing something? Doesn't it require a decision, not to mention a change?

Ask any saved evangelical if they have repented. They will all tell you yes.

So how does an evangelical, on one hand, accept Jesus in their heart, repent, and at the same time claim they have done nothing to save themselves? Do you see the dilemma here?

So for me, I have to ask the most important question. WDJS (What did Jesus say)? Here are Jesus' statements on the topic of salvation.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5).

"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven Matthew 10:32).

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Do we not choose to believe? Do we not make the decision to repent, to stop sinning and turn back to God? Does this not take effort on our parts? I know it did and still does for me. I have to work very hard at being good.

We heard in the news recently of the twenty-five Coptic Christians being beheaded because they refused to deny Jesus Christ. Do you think that required effort on their parts? I know if it had been me, it would have required every bit of effort I could muster.

Is it not the will of God that we believe in Jesus, that we repent, that we confess Jesus before men, that we get immersed, and that we live our lives faithfully? If we don't do the Father's will, can we expect to go to heaven?

Is not doing the Father's will WORK?

IMHO, we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part).

I'm saying we are saved by God's grace, His unearned, undeserved gift AND we are saved through our faith, which simply means our faithful obedience to His commands. Obeying His commands is not earning His gift. We obey Him not to earn His grace, but because we love Him.

Remember the words of Jesus:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Thank you for your kind words, MyGirl. I often try to do my best to avoid debate and have good conversations.



I used to be a member of an Evangelical Presbyterian church, and I've attended different Evangelical churches. So I should tell you that only the members of the Evangelical Presbyterian church held beliefs similar to what you described. It's called Reformed Theology and was started by John Calvin, if you are curios and want to look it up. One of its tennents is that God's grace is irresistible.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
(John 6)​

Only those whom God draws come to Christ, when he draws them, they cannot resist his call, and once they truly come to him they never look back, they say. But they also say those so drawn are also changed forever, so that with every passing day they become more and more like Christ.

Now their ideas appear logical in the light of many verses of scripture, but there are also several verses that seem to disagree, such as those describing one losing her salvation. So I'm not so sure every biblical passage agrees with every doctrine they profess to be true.

* * *

This is different from the teachings of many other Evanelicals, as well as Charasmatics, Methodists, Weslians and others who believe one can indeed fall from grace and lose her salvation. Although these Christians sometimes ascribe to the idea that one is saved by grace through faith and repentance but not through good deeds, they sometimes say it's not a lack of good deeds that causes them to lose their salvation but a lack of faith. Having once repented and believed, they stop repenting and believing and become lost once again.

Now there are many other views on salvation besides these two. I'm just explaining what I know so that you see not all Evangelucals think alike. So you might know that it's a good idea to ask many questions when you meet one of them so you don't jump to the wrong conclusions about what they believe.

* * *

That being said, I'm still wondering what you believe about this gift called grace. Please tell me, as I'm dying to know what gift you are asking me to receive! What is grace? God's power, God's love, or something else?

 

[Spockrates]

This strikes me as not seeing the forest for the trees.
Read all of Ephesians Chapter 2.
Read it as a block of information.
What is Paul saying about who God is, what God wants, what God did and why God did it?

It is not 'Love' or 'Power'. That is a silly "which came first, the chicken or the egg" debate.
Clearly Chapter 2 demonstrates the Power of what God has done and the Love of what God has done.
The whole chapter talks about the power God employed and the power that God has bestowed.
The whole chapter talks about the love that God has demonstrated and the love that God has granted us the ability to have and show.

The importance of Grace is that it is from God and not wages that we have earned.
The important distinction is not 'Power' vs 'Love' (since "saved" demonstrates and requires both Power and Love on God's part).
The important distinction is 'unmerited' vs 'earned' (since it is God who saves and not Man who saves himself).

Atpollard:

Yes, that sounds logical. So is grace the love and power to save a person despite what she does? Or is grace the love and power to help a person do what she must do to be saved?

 

[atpollard]

Atpollard:
Yes, that sounds logical. So is grace the love and power to save a person despite what she does? Or is grace the love and power to help a person do what she must do to be saved?

[Remember, I am one of those mean Calvinists, so use with caution]

I do not know for certain how God does things at all times and for all people ... that is above my pay grade.
I am an expert on what God has done for me, so I will answer on that basis.

"Is grace the love and power to save a person despite what she does?"
"Is grace the love and power to help a person do what she must do to be saved?"

BOTH!
I was a very bad person ... active in arson and gangs and drug smuggling.
I was full of hate and violence and arrogance towards God.
(One day I took a serious look at the Sermon on the Mount and the Ten Commandments ... if I am honest with myself about it I have literally violated EVERY one of them.)
I was a God hater and if I ever stood before a Holy God, I deserved to be found guilty.
"The evidence of contemporary Christian life is such that God, if he ever existed, must surely be dead." ... That was my mantra.
It was far easier to believe that there was no god, because the alternative supported by the evidence of my life and the life of those around me was that 'If god exists, then he is an evil, malevolent being ... just like his creation.'
I did not view death as the end of life, only the end of pain ... more something to be embraced than feared.
God's Grace is the power that chose to reach out for me when there was literally absolutely no reason why God should have saved me.

So Grace chose me.
God loved me.
The Holy spirit, little by little, wooed me.
Until I dared to believe that God might exist and it was remotely possible that I could be saved.
The process took years to reach that point.


There is a Christian platitude that I have none the less found to be true:
"God loves us as he finds us, but he loves us too much to leave us there."
Grace empowers us to want to please God.
To want to do what God commands.
To learn to see the world as God sees it ... Good as Good and Evil as Evil.

Frankly, Salvation is not like 'Spiritual Rape'.
God does not stomp in and take people against their will, compelling them to serve him or brainwashing them to love and worship him.
I like the image in Rev 3:20

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

The Holy Spirit stood at the door to my heart and knocked ... gently, but persistently ... until I was willing to open the door and invite him in.
Then he told me about the Passover Lamb ... the lamb without blemish ... sent from Heaven ... sent by God ... slain for me ...
... but the blood of the Passover lamb is worthless to me unless I CHOOSE to apply it to the doorposts and lintel.
The task fell to ME to accept the blood of Jesus by applying it to the door to MY HEART.
God gave me the grace to do as he has commanded ... but to obey or to not obey was my choice.

I did not find the Power of God irresistible, I found the Love of God to be Irresistible ... I had no desire to resist it.

It was only decades later that I found a way to describe the event and the relationship:

Exodus 21:
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

I had chosen to pierce my ear and proclaim to all that "I am the servant of Jesus Christ, forever!"


So you ask:
"Is grace the love and power to save a person despite what she does?"
"Is grace the love and power to help a person do what she must do to be saved?"
I answer that for me, YES.

(and I believe that Jesus will accept any heart willing to follow him).

Romans 8:
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

God has a Plan, and his arm is not short.

 

[Spockrates]

[Remember, I am one of those mean Calvinists, so use with caution]

Far from it! and I still enjoy reading or listening to RC Sproll, Chuck Swindoll, John Mac Arthur, Steve Brown and other good Calvinists.

I do not know for certain how God does things at all times and for all people ... that is above my pay grade.
I am an expert on what God has done for me, so I will answer on that basis.

"Is grace the love and power to save a person despite what she does?"
"Is grace the love and power to help a person do what she must do to be saved?"

BOTH!
I was a very bad person ... active in arson and gangs and drug smuggling.
I was full of hate and violence and arrogance towards God.
(One day I took a serious look at the Sermon on the Mount and the Ten Commandments ... if I am honest with myself about it I have literally violated EVERY one of them.)
I was a God hater and if I ever stood before a Holy God, I deserved to be found guilty.
"The evidence of contemporary Christian life is such that God, if he ever existed, must surely be dead." ... That was my mantra.
It was far easier to believe that there was no god, because the alternative supported by the evidence of my life and the life of those around me was that 'If god exists, then he is an evil, malevolent being ... just like his creation.'
I did not view death as the end of life, only the end of pain ... more something to be embraced than feared.
God's Grace is the power that chose to reach out for me when there was literally absolutely no reason why God should have saved me.

So Grace chose me.
God loved me.
The Holy spirit, little by little, wooed me.
Until I dared to believe that God might exist and it was remotely possible that I could be saved.
The process took years to reach that point.


There is a Christian platitude that I have none the less found to be true:
"God loves us as he finds us, but he loves us too much to leave us there."
Grace empowers us to want to please God.
To want to do what God commands.
To learn to see the world as God sees it ... Good as Good and Evil as Evil.

Frankly, Salvation is not like 'Spiritual Rape'.
God does not stomp in and take people against their will, compelling them to serve him or brainwashing them to love and worship him.
I like the image in Rev 3:20

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

The Holy Spirit stood at the door to my heart and knocked ... gently, but persistently ... until I was willing to open the door and invite him in.
Then he told me about the Passover Lamb ... the lamb without blemish ... sent from Heaven ... sent by God ... slain for me ...
... but the blood of the Passover lamb is worthless to me unless I CHOOSE to apply it to the doorposts and lintel.
The task fell to ME to accept the blood of Jesus by applying it to the door to MY HEART.
God gave me the grace to do as he has commanded ... but to obey or to not obey was my choice.

I did not find the Power of God irresistible, I found the Love of God to be Irresistible ... I had no desire to resist it.

It was only decades later that I found a way to describe the event and the relationship:

Exodus 21:
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

I had chosen to pierce my ear and proclaim to all that "I am the servant of Jesus Christ, forever!"


So you ask:
"Is grace the love and power to save a person despite what she does?"
"Is grace the love and power to help a person do what she must do to be saved?"
I answer that for me, YES.

(and I believe that Jesus will accept any heart willing to follow him).

Thank you for sharing your testimony. It seems that unlike CS Lewis, you did not go, "kicking and screaming into the kingdom of God"!

Romans 8:
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

God has a Plan, and his arm is not short.

From what I understand, the word predestined carries different meanings. It may mean to predetermine, as in God deciding to whom he will give the desire to respond to him and to whom he will withhold such desire. It may also mean to preempt, as in God, looking down the corridor of time, sees who will respond to him and what it will take to produce such a response. So that he works all situations for the good of those who will respond, without impeding upon their freedom to reject him. In the former view, predestination is causing the response with 100% certainty of a positive outcome. In the latter view, predestination is reacting in such a way to help bring about the response, but there is never 100% certainty of the outcome. God is simply improving the odds in everyone's favor, so that a greater percentage of people respond to him than would have without his influence.

* * *

But yes, I think I understand what you believe, but let me be sure. I'm not certain of the source, but I recall that John Calvin once said:

It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is not alone.
​

So in the light of this premise, I think you are saying God's grace has saved you from hell and God's grace is also making you more like Christ. I think you might go on to say, if I asked for further explanation that becoming like Christ is not a cause of this saving. Such sanctification is merely the effect of this saving, and an effect of salvation doesn't case anyone to be saved.

Am I correct, or have I misunderstood anything?

 

[atpollard]

Far from it! and I still enjoy reading or listening to RC Sproll, Chuck Swindoll, John Mac Arthur, Steve Brown and other good Calvinists.



Thank you for sharing your testimony. It seems that unlike CS Lewis, you did not go, "kicking and screaming into the kingdom of God"!

Yes, I think I understand what you believe. but let me be sure. I'm not certain of the source, but I recall that John Calvin once said:

It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is not alone.
​

So in the light of this premise, I think you are saying God's grace has saved you from hell and God's grace is also making you more like Christ. I think you might go on to say, if I asked for further explanation that becoming like Christ is not a cause of this saving. Such sanctification is merely the effect of this saving, and an effect of salvation doesn't case anyone to be saved.

Am I correct, or have I misunderstood anything?

Yup that is correct.
A Southern Baptist Preacher that I like said that many things in Christianity have a Past-Present-Future aspect to them ... Salvation is one of them:

Past: Jesus died on a cross to save me and I accepted his salvation ... that is what we call 'Salvation'.
Present: Every day God is knocking off some of the rough edges and making me more like Christ ... that is what we call 'Sanctification'.
Future: Some day I will stand before God and all of my sin will have been removed, I will be perfect, just like Jesus is perfect ... that is what we call 'Glorification'.

God's Grace (unmerited Love and Power) is the force that drew me to Salvation, is daily Sanctifying me, and will one day welcome the Glorified me into his home to live forever.
God is pretty cool!

 

[Spockrates]

Yup that is correct.
A Southern Baptist Preacher that I like said that many things in Christianity have a Past-Present-Future aspect to them ... Salvation is one of them:

Past: Jesus died on a cross to save me and I accepted his salvation ... that is what we call 'Salvation'.
Present: Every day God is knocking off some of the rough edges and making me more like Christ ... that is what we call 'Sanctification'.
Future: Some day I will stand before God and all of my sin will have been removed, I will be perfect, just like Jesus is perfect ... that is what we call 'Glorification'.

God's Grace (unmerited Love and Power) is the force that drew me to Salvation, is daily Sanctifying me, and will one day welcome the Glorified me into his home to live forever.
God is pretty cool!

Sorry for the late edit, but I added a reply about the meaning of predestination. No need to respond to it unless you want to.

I'll respond to your reply after awhile. Enjoying the dialog!

 

[Spockrates]

Yup that is correct.
A Southern Baptist Preacher that I like said that many things in Christianity have a Past-Present-Future aspect to them ... Salvation is one of them:

Past: Jesus died on a cross to save me and I accepted his salvation ... that is what we call 'Salvation'.
Present: Every day God is knocking off some of the rough edges and making me more like Christ ... that is what we call 'Sanctification'.
Future: Some day I will stand before God and all of my sin will have been removed, I will be perfect, just like Jesus is perfect ... that is what we call 'Glorification'.

God's Grace (unmerited Love and Power) is the force that drew me to Salvation, is daily Sanctifying me, and will one day welcome the Glorified me into his home to live forever.
God is pretty cool!

I guess, then the question is: What do I have to do to receive this love and power? More specifically, what must I do to receive the love and power needed for salvation?

I think Calvin, when he says, "It is faith alone that justifies," he is saying faith is what I must do to be saved. I assume that when he says, "but the faith that justifies is not alone," he is speaking of those other things besides faith that are required for sanctification, but never salvation. So it seems only faith is required of me to be saved from hell.

Am I understanding you, or is what I say not quite true?

 

[atpollard]

I guess, then the question is: What do I have to do to receive this love and power? More specifically, what must I do to receive the love and power needed for salvation?

I think Calvin, when he says, "It is faith alone that justifies," he is saying faith is what I must do to be saved. I assume that when he says, "but the faith that justifies is not alone," he is speaking of those other things besides faith that are required for sanctification, but never salvation. So it seems only faith is required of me to be saved from hell.

Am I understanding you, or is what I say not quite true?

Yes, I would say that Calvin and I agree with your statement that only Faith is required to be saved from hell ... but do not down play sanctification and those other things (like doing as Jesus says, repenting of sin, being baptized) too much.
James is very much correct when is asks what kind of person wants to be saved, but has no interest in becoming better or in actually being made perfect and meeting God face to face? A Faith that claims to 'save' but produces no other change (or desire for change) must be treated as suspicious ... perhaps a false (dead) faith that really had no power to save.

At one extreme, you have people like the young Martin Luther who crawled on his knees up and down the stairs praying all day every day and struggling with nightmares that his efforts to be Holy would never be enough and his sins could never be forgiven ... that is not what God had in mind. That is the 'works' that Paul speaks against ... trying to earn salvation by our own power.

At the other extreme, few things bother me more than most modern alter calls. Close your eyes so everyone can remain anonymous, mumble some simple incantation, and poof, you are safe from Hell, now go back about your business like nothing happened. Salvation is not like a flu shot ... a momentary prick of the conscience, and then back about life as normal.

The admission fee to Salvation (Faith given by the Grace of God) is very low, so everyone can afford to enter, but the expectation from the members is very high ... a new character (heart of flesh for a heart of stone), a willingness to do what Jesus said (If you love me, keep my commandments), a life that produces the fruit (love, peace, joy).

Do not think that Salvation is beyond reach, but do not think that "getting out of Hell" is all that serving God involves.
I'll let you in on a secret, even if there was no afterlife - no Heaven and no Hell, just life followed by sleep - I would still recommend following and trusting Jesus to anyone (And I would serve no less than I try to do now).
Living for God is just SO much better than living without Him.

 

[katiemygirl]

[

Thank you for your kind words, MyGirl. I often try to do my best to avoid debate and have good conversations.



I used to be a member of an Evangelical Presbyterian church, and I've attended different Evangelical churches. So I should tell you that only the members of the Evangelical Presbyterian church held beliefs similar to what you described. It's called Reformed Theology and was started by John Calvin, if you are curios and want to look it up. One of its tennents is that God's grace is irresistible.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
(John 6)​

Only those whom God draws come to Christ, when he draws them, they cannot resist his call, and once they truly come to him they never look back, they say. But they also say those so drawn are also changed forever, so that with every passing day they become more and more like Christ.

Now their ideas appear logical in the light of many verses of scripture, but there are also several verses that seem to disagree, such as those describing one losing her salvation. So I'm not so sure every biblical passage agrees with every doctrine they profess to be true.

* * *

This is different from the teachings of many other Evanelicals, as well as Charasmatics, Methodists, Weslians and others who believe one can indeed fall from grace and lose her salvation. Although these Christians sometimes ascribe to the idea that one is saved by grace through faith and repentance but not through good deeds, they sometimes say it's not a lack of good deeds that causes them to lose their salvation but a lack of faith. Having once repented and believed, they stop repenting and believing and become lost once again.

Now there are many other views on salvation besides these two. I'm just explaining what I know so that you see not all Evangelucals think alike. So you might know that it's a good idea to ask many questions when you meet one of them so you don't jump to the wrong conclusions about what they believe.

* * *

That being said, I'm still wondering what you believe about this gift called grace. Please tell me, as I'm dying to know what gift you are asking me to receive! What is grace? God's power, God's love, or something else?

You are DEFINITELY mixing me up with someone else! I am not a believer in
T-U-L-I-P! I abhorr Calvinism. All five miswrable points of it! It is false doctrine to the MAX!

I posted a lengthy explanation of what I believe about grace on Friday. Please go back and check. I spent a lot of time on that post, so I would appreciate you reading it.

 

[Spockrates]

You are DEFINITELY mixing me up with someone else! I am not a believer in
T-U-L-I-P! I abhorr Calvinism. All five miswrable points of it! It is false doctrine to the MAX!

Sorry for being clear as mud! I was not trying to say you believe in Reformed Theology. I was trying to say not all Evangelicals believe in Reformed Theology. In fact, many don't.

I posted a lengthy explanation of what I believe about grace on Friday. Please go back and check. I spent a lot of time on that post, so I would appreciate you reading it.

Yes, you said grace is a gift, but not what kind of gift. I asked if it is a gift of love or of power, and you have not given me an answer. If you haven't fully unwrapped it yourself to discover what it is, that's OK. Maybe we can figure it out together. Our Calvinist friend Atpollard says it's both love and power. Do you think he's mistaken?

 

[Spockrates]

Yes, I would say that Calvin and I agree with your statement that only Faith is required to be saved from hell ...

Thank you. So to be sure I understand, by saying, "only faith is required to be saved from hell," do you also mean, "only faith is required to be forgiven by God forever"? Forgive me if the answer seems obvious to you. I want to be careful to not misunderstand.

but do not down play sanctification and those other things (like doing as Jesus says, repenting of sin, being baptized) too much.
James is very much correct when is asks what kind of person wants to be saved, but has no interest in becoming better or in actually being made perfect and meeting God face to face? A Faith that claims to 'save' but produces no other change (or desire for change) must be treated as suspicious ... perhaps a false (dead) faith that really had no power to save.

At one extreme, you have people like the young Martin Luther who crawled on his knees up and down the stairs praying all day every day and struggling with nightmares that his efforts to be Holy would never be enough and his sins could never be forgiven ... that is not what God had in mind. That is the 'works' that Paul speaks against ... trying to earn salvation by our own power.

At the other extreme, few things bother me more than most modern alter calls. Close your eyes so everyone can remain anonymous, mumble some simple incantation, and poof, you are safe from Hell, now go back about your business like nothing happened. Salvation is not like a flu shot ... a momentary prick of the conscience, and then back about life as normal.

The admission fee to Salvation (Faith given by the Grace of God) is very low, so everyone can afford to enter, but the expectation from the members is very high ... a new character (heart of flesh for a heart of stone), a willingness to do what Jesus said (If you love me, keep my commandments), a life that produces the fruit (love, peace, joy).

Sounds logical to me, and I always try to be logical.

Do not think that Salvation is beyond reach, but do not think that "getting out of Hell" is all that serving God involves.
I'll let you in on a secret, even if there was no afterlife - no Heaven and no Hell, just life followed by sleep - I would still recommend following and trusting Jesus to anyone (And I would serve no less than I try to do now).
Living for God is just SO much better than living without Him.

I believe your testimony gives authenticity to your words, as you are able from personal experience to make a real comparison.

 

[atpollard]

Thank you. So to be sure I understand, by saying, "only faith is required to be saved from hell," do you also mean, "only faith is required to be forgiven by God forever"? Forgive me if the answer seems obvious to you. I want to be careful to not misunderstand.

Absolutely YES.
To be completely clear, I believe that the thief on the cross who confesses Christ and died the same day had, in fact, done everything that Jesus requires of US to be saved, to have our sins forgiven, and to inherit eternal life. He confessed with his mouth and believed with his heart that Jesus was all he needed to be saved. That is faith.

I believe that someone on their death bed who cries out to Jesus to forgive them, and trusts that what Christ did is enough to earn their forgiveness has fulfilled all of the requirements of faith to be forgiven of sin, saved from hell and inherit eternal life.

If that man on his death bed somehow recovered, I believe that no further actions would be REQUIRED on his part to keep the forgiveness that he has received. At the same time, I believe that God will have begun a lifelong work of transformation inside of him, and this work will make him (compelled by love) to desire to please God and do what Jesus has asked. That would include things like an ongoing repentence of his sins as he becomes aware of them, and a willingness to stand up proudly and make a public declairation that he has decided to follow Jesus (Baptism).

What others see as required, I see as fruit of the change.

 

[Spockrates]

Absolutely YES.
To be completely clear, I believe that the thief on the cross who confesses Christ and died the same day had, in fact, done everything that Jesus requires of US to be saved, to have our sins forgiven, and to inherit eternal life. He confessed with his mouth and believed with his heart that Jesus was all he needed to be saved. That is faith.

I believe that someone on their death bed who cries out to Jesus to forgive them, and trusts that what Christ did is enough to earn their forgiveness has fulfilled all of the requirements of faith to be forgiven of sin, saved from hell and inherit eternal life.

If that man on his death bed somehow recovered, I believe that no further actions would be REQUIRED on his part to keep the forgiveness that he has received. At the same time, I believe that God will have begun a lifelong work of transformation inside of him, and this work will make him (compelled by love) to desire to please God and do what Jesus has asked. That would include things like an ongoing repentence of his sins as he becomes aware of them, and a willingness to stand up proudly and make a public declairation that he has decided to follow Jesus (Baptism).

What others see as required, I see as fruit of the change.

Yes, my friend. And forgive me for asking another question, but I want to be 100% sure: Is this faith the only thing I need to not only (1) be saved, (2) be eternally forgiven and (3) gain entrance to heaven, but also to (4) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to live with me and in me both now and ever more? Is faith alone required of me to receive these four gifts from God?

I mean, if faith alone gives me (4), then I suppose a Christian need never pray as did David:

Cast me not away from thy presence, O Lord. Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.

(Psalm 51:11)​

Right?

​

 

[atpollard]

Yes, my friend. And forgive me for asking another question, but I want to be 100% sure: Is this faith the only thing I need to not only (1) be saved, (2) be eternally forgiven and (3) gain entrance to heaven, but also to (4) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to live with me and in me both now and ever more? Is faith alone required of me to receive these four gifts from God?

I mean, if faith alone gives me (4), then I suppose a Christian need never pray as did David:

Cast me not away from thy presence, O Lord. Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.

(Psalm 51:11)​

Right?

Yes.
That is what it means to be saved ... regenerated ... born again.

... All by Grace through Faith.
... Our trust is the key that opens the door to the flow of God's favor.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes.
That is what it means to be saved ... regenerated ... born again.

... All by Grace through Faith.
... Our trust is the key that opens the door to the flow of God's favor.

Yes, I think now I know for certain what you believe. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.



Whether what you believe is true, I don't yet know. Please let me explain why. During Peter's first presentation of the gospel, he was asked by his audience what they must do to be saved. His response:

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
(Acts 2:38)
​

Please tell me: Since Peter says repentance is required, does this mean we are forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit through both repentance and faith, instead of through faith alone?