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Wondering About Forgiveness
- Thread starter Spockrates
- Start date
allfoak
Alchemist
Last time i looked there were about 7,317,385,700 and counting, human sacrifices roaming around the planet.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Please forgive me for being slow, but no. When I consider the words you used:
• giving up things
• similar to repentance
• cleansing process
I can imagine different and contrary ideas these words represent. So if I am to ever understand you, I think I must take the words of Socrates to heart:
"All good counsel begins in the same way: A man should know what he is advising about, or his counsel will all come to nought. But people imagine that they know about the nature of things, when they dont know about them. So not having come to an understanding at first--because they think that they know--they end, as might be expected, in contradicting one another and even themselves! Now you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error which we condemn in others."
(Phaedrus)
So I ought to be sure I know what your ambiguous words mean, instead of hastily jumping to conclusions out of being too lazy to seek clarification. Please bear with me and clarify your meaning:
The words, "giving up things," are ambiguous to me. For they could mean giving up thinking certain thoughts or giving up seeking some physical retribution.
The words, "similar to repentance," are too vague, as like forgiveness, I have no idea whether you think repentance is merely something you think, or also something you say or do.
The words, "cleansing process," are also too vague to help me, as I have no idea what analogy you are making.
So forgive me for asking once again for a simple, one-word answer. But please help me understand by answering either yes or no. Is forgiving merely a thought and never a word or deed?
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Spockrates
Wonderer.
Thanks David, but I think I'll let Riverwood define what he or she believes.
[emoji4]
Perhaps you'd like to tell me what you believe?
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allfoak
Alchemist
Perhaps we should use some different words?
I am trying to get a sense of your perspective on life but it has been difficult.
I'm sorry.
I thought that i was talking to a Christian but now find myself thinking that i am taking to someone with a much wider background than bible school as a child and church on Sunday.
The question that arises for me now is, how far i should take my explanation?
While my words may be ambiguous to you, they make perfect sense to me.
So while i would be happy to explain myself to you so that you can understand, i think i need a better perspective to start from than the one i have been using.
First of all i would like to make a couple of observations with a little intuitive inspiration.
I noticed that you use an avatar that represents logic and then call yourself a Christian; that is willing to consider making a change.
I would interpret this as you seeing the irrationality (blind belief) within Christendom and it not sitting to well for you but, having a lot invested into Christianity your reluctant to let it go.
Your Socrates quote was very incisive, not something i would expect from the average Christian.
I understand that there are many very smart Christians but i doubt that they have ever really questioned what they believe, either that or it doesn't matter to them and their religious activity serves some other purpose in their life.
Nevertheless, i am sure i just offended someone, so i shall move on.
So the question now becomes: How much do you understand about forgiveness, and how much would you like to know?
Forgiveness and many subjects like it will take you straight down the rabbit hole.
This is not a place that i like to take people unless i think they are looking to go there.
I am trying to get a sense of your perspective on life but it has been difficult.
I'm sorry.
I thought that i was talking to a Christian but now find myself thinking that i am taking to someone with a much wider background than bible school as a child and church on Sunday.
The question that arises for me now is, how far i should take my explanation?
While my words may be ambiguous to you, they make perfect sense to me.
So while i would be happy to explain myself to you so that you can understand, i think i need a better perspective to start from than the one i have been using.
First of all i would like to make a couple of observations with a little intuitive inspiration.
I noticed that you use an avatar that represents logic and then call yourself a Christian; that is willing to consider making a change.
I would interpret this as you seeing the irrationality (blind belief) within Christendom and it not sitting to well for you but, having a lot invested into Christianity your reluctant to let it go.
Your Socrates quote was very incisive, not something i would expect from the average Christian.
I understand that there are many very smart Christians but i doubt that they have ever really questioned what they believe, either that or it doesn't matter to them and their religious activity serves some other purpose in their life.
Nevertheless, i am sure i just offended someone, so i shall move on.
So the question now becomes: How much do you understand about forgiveness, and how much would you like to know?
Forgiveness and many subjects like it will take you straight down the rabbit hole.
This is not a place that i like to take people unless i think they are looking to go there.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
I took a personality test, once. The result: Only 1% of the people who take the test have a profile that fits mine. I'm essentially a questioner who is rarely willing to accept the idea that if something has always been done one way, it should continue to be done that way. If there is a better way to believe or behave, I'm willing to consider it seriously and carefully, but not usually willing to accept it easily.
Perhaps you are dealing with a small sample of Christians who are in no way representative of the majority? I too find that many Christians I meet online are illogical, and are motivated more by a need to win debates or "win" souls than to learn what and why others believe. I used to be one, and I empathize with many of them, as I used to think I was saving those I argued with from eternal torment.
The question that arises for me now is, how far i should take my explanation?
While my words may be ambiguous to you, they make perfect sense to me.
So while i would be happy to explain myself to you so that you can understand, i think i need a better perspective to start from than the one i have been using.
First of all i would like to make a couple of observations with a little intuitive inspiration.
I noticed that you use an avatar that represents logic and then call yourself a Christian; that is willing to consider making a change.
I would interpret this as you seeing the irrationality (blind belief) within Christendom and it not sitting to well for you but, having a lot invested into Christianity your reluctant to let it go.
Your Socrates quote was very incisive, not something i would expect from the average Christian.
I understand that there are many very smart Christians but i doubt that they have ever really questioned what they believe, either that or it doesn't matter to them and their religious activity serves some other purpose in their life.
Nevertheless, i am sure i just offended someone, so i shall move on.
[emoji4]
Sounds like an adventure I will not be able to pass up! To the rabbit hole we go!
I'd like to comment on @allfoak post about Socrates and tie it in with what I read here about forgiveness.
I have never read Socrates, not that I remember anyway. But I have the same opinion as he wrote as quoted in post #64
Let us just say that I did not make it up. I believe that. So then, how does that opinion rest in my head?
It is possible that all minds or souls are connected somehow. It might be that some wisdom is being generated and was generated
by souls that were not of my caliber. It might be that they are holy and I am ashamed of myself or it might be that they are
sinning compared to me and I can't let them in.
In both circumstances, I need to be forgiving. In the first place, I have to forgive myself. and in the second place, I have to forgive the sinner's sin so that I am able to accept the good even from a "bad" person and even from a holy soul.
Wisdom and truth float around in the air, call it "heaven". People put up walls against it because of where it really comes from. imo.
I have never read Socrates, not that I remember anyway. But I have the same opinion as he wrote as quoted in post #64
Let us just say that I did not make it up. I believe that. So then, how does that opinion rest in my head?
It is possible that all minds or souls are connected somehow. It might be that some wisdom is being generated and was generated
by souls that were not of my caliber. It might be that they are holy and I am ashamed of myself or it might be that they are
sinning compared to me and I can't let them in.
In both circumstances, I need to be forgiving. In the first place, I have to forgive myself. and in the second place, I have to forgive the sinner's sin so that I am able to accept the good even from a "bad" person and even from a holy soul.
Wisdom and truth float around in the air, call it "heaven". People put up walls against it because of where it really comes from. imo.
allfoak
Alchemist
"I sure wish i knew what forgiveness looked like" said Alice.
" Cause i'm sure having a hard time finding it".
"It must look like something" said the Rabbit
"Or it wouldn't exist"
"Does it exist" said Alice?
"Where can it be found if it exists"?
"It's much to deep a subject to be found anywhere but down here" said the Rabbit.
" i suppose you are correct Rabbit" said Alice.
"Off i go.....
"Good adventures Alice"! yelled the Rabbit.
"Oh dear!.. look at the time!.."
Off i go..
Hahaha THAT I have read. I am afraid I might be wrong about the fact that I think you have made that up. LOL
"I sure wish i knew what forgiveness looked like" said Alice.
" Cause i'm sure having a hard time finding it".
"It must look like something" said the Rabbit
"Or it wouldn't exist"
"Does it exist" said Alice?
"Where can it be found if it exists"?
"It's much to deep a subject to be found anywhere but down here" said the Rabbit.
" i suppose you are correct Rabbit" said Alice.
"Off i go.....
"Good adventures Alice"! yelled the Rabbit.
"Oh dear!.. look at the time!.."
Off i go..
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, but the question still remains: What is forgiveness? If I don't know the answer, then how will I ever know if I've ever forgiven anyone?
allfoak
Alchemist
What is it that would lead one to question if they have or have not forgiven someone?
Certainly not a definition?
Spockrates
Wonderer.
"I sure wish i knew what forgiveness looked like" said Alice.
" Cause i'm sure having a hard time finding it".
"It must look like something" said the Rabbit
"Or it wouldn't exist"
"Does it exist" said Alice?
"Where can it be found if it exists"?
"It's much to deep a subject to be found anywhere but down here" said the Rabbit.
" i suppose you are correct Rabbit" said Alice.
"Off i go.....
"Good adventures Alice"! yelled the Rabbit.
"Oh dear!.. look at the time!.."
Off i go..
Though I don't think I'd make a very good Alice, as I don't look beautiful in a dress. Maybe I'll stick to wearing jeans, and you both may call me Alex. Let me know when we reach the bottom, or the beginning.
[emoji195]
Spockrates
Wonderer.
How can one honestly answer that question if one has no idea what the word forgiven means? (This is a bit of an exaggeration. I have ideas what it might mean. But those ideas contradict one another, and I'm uncertain what idea is correct.)
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If you feel bound by another you have not forgiven. If you feel free you have forgiven. Do you feel bound or free?
Spockrates
Wonderer.
A serial killer might feel free to murder. Does that mean murder is forgiveness? A compassionate person might feel bound to do no harm. Does that mean abstaining from murder is unforgiving?
I hope you do not know how a serial murderer feels.
Deeds are not forgiveness. Forgiveness is power to act.
It is my opinion that a compassionate person need not "abstain" from doing bad to another person. I do not know if I should feel sorry that I think it is funny to imagine that a caring person needs to abstain from murder.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, that helps. Now you have removed the mud from my eyes! I think I see clearly what you believe forgiveness is, though I don't yet see if it is something true, which I should believe too.
Please let me carefully consider your idea. You say forgiveness is the power to act, but not the act of forgiving itself.
So the Mad Hatter says, "Friends, acquaintances, and countrymen: Let us not be so odd as to be at odds with one another. But let us commit acts of love and forgiveness toward one another!"
Would you say, my friend, that Alex ought to correct him, saying, this? "My dear sir, how shall we do such a thing, since it is quite impossible to do? Love and forgiveness are powers, not acts. There simply is no such thing as an act of love and forgiveness!"
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Spockrates
Wonderer.
...
allfoak
Alchemist
Then spit it out!
You have to be able to logically follow your own thoughts out to the end.
Perhaps you are afraid to tumble down the hole.
" Why do things seem so strange down here Rabbit"?
I don't know Alice, why are things strange anywhere"?
"What i mean Rabbit, is why are the one's down here so different than the one's up there"?
"That's easy Alice, the people up there don't know that down here even exists".
"That would not only make us strange but non-existent" said the Rabbit.
"But didn't i come from up there"? said Alice.
"I don't know" said the Rabbit.
"You followed me down here, remember"?
"I suppose you are correct Rabbit".
"Well off i go"... said Alice.
"What about the reason you came here Alice"! yelled the Rabbit.
"Oh dear"!...