Wondering About Forgiveness

[Spockrates]

I wish it worked like that.

I see you trying to understand forgiveness specifically.

I believe learning forgiveness is a lifelong process. You may never know for sure what it is, how it works. But I think you can have an understanding of how it actually works apart from certain distortions.

Once you have an inkling of how it actually works, it would be hard to then suggest you have no idea how it works. Such an assertion may work on open forum with 'others' who don't know what you do understand, but I wonder how it would work for your own self when do you have some understanding, but pretend to have none?

Hi Acim. Yes, thanks for pointing out my error. It would have been more accurate to say I have some ideas what forgiveness is, but these ideas are contradictory. So I am uncertain which of them is correct. Let me know if you desire further explanation.

To me, knowing how to forgive (as if that equates to knowledge) is actually knowing how to position yourself in any relationship so that forgiveness is seen for what it is, not necessary.

It is only when a relationship is perceived as being out of balance where forgiveness is seen as plausible/necessary. In reality, no one needs forgiveness. Knowing that, I find, is very challenging. I think of it as lifelong journey. Saying it, as if I fully understand that, easy peasy. Like saying 2+2=4. I write it as truth. I understand it as truth. Yet, I still see in myself ways in which forgiveness is necessary for me.

Not sure I understand. Are you saying it's sometimes necessary for you to forgive yourself, but it's never necessary for you to forgive someone else?

In short sound bite form, forgiveness is: overlooking the error(s) you perceive in others.

Thank you for the concise definition.

It is important to realize it is not really (really) about others. It can be helpful early on in learning to use forgiveness if you make it entirely about others. Cause what forgiveness actually entails is adjusting your own filter about who 'others' are in reality to You.

So, if there is someone you (or I) have a grudge against, and perhaps reasons that feel self justified for maintaining that grudge, then it can help to use forgiveness as if overlooking the error will somehow impact them, as if it is THEIR ERROR. I emphasize 'their error,' because prior to my having a more acute understanding of how forgiveness works, I knew of no way to see it as 'my error.' I pretended like I did, and tried earnestly to see it in that way. But really understanding the nature of forgiveness, is understanding your own self and how mind works. If mind is split, where separation is identified as 'reality' then it may seem as it will forever be challenging to see another person's error as 'my responsibility.' Let's take Hitler as a pretty good example. Are Hitler's errors my responsibility or Hitler's? In the world of separation, it would seem impossible for me to identify Hitler's errors as my own. In actual reality, Hitler is not outside of me. I give (my version of) Hitler all the meaning it has for me. Therefore, it is my responsibility to forgive that. In some ways, forgiving Hitler is far (far) easier than forgiving say a relative you meet with regularly, or friend, or co-worker. Because you aren't likely to encounter that perceived error in Hitler ever again. With the person(s) you visit regularly, you will be tested. You'll self identify it as a test. And part of that test will be understanding who is responsible for the perceived error. Hence, a lifelong process.

It would be wonderful, IMHO, if the sound bite form of forgiveness was all it took to fully accomplish (and fully understand how) forgiveness (works). In some cases, if you practice forgiveness hourly, it will work as if very little effort or testing was needed. You feel full forgiveness. It seems, in those moments, like it is easy and how could it not be done by everyone given how easy it is. Yet, in my experience (YMMV), there are instances where forgiving once, doesn't quite cut it. Why? Because you are (or I am) very willing to reinforce the error rather than be vigilant for the peace (of God).

I could go on for another umpteen paragraphs on this. Haven't even mentioned the Love aspect for which forgiveness is ultimately aiming. Once you fully forgive, Love returns to your awareness. You realize it never truly left, but was kept at bay or disregarded in favor of the error. When the Love is realized and you are acting in relation to a perceived other, a miracle is not only plausible, but from the forgiven perspective, natural. When miracles don't occur, something has gone wrong.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are saying. On one hand you said:

(A) "In short sound bite form, forgiveness is: overlooking the error(s) you perceive in others."

On the other hand you said:

(B) "To me, knowing how to forgive (as if that equates to knowledge) is actually knowing how to position yourself in any relationship so that forgiveness is seen for what it is, not necessary."

So do you mean it is unnecessary to overlook the the errors I perceive in others? That is, are you saying it is necessary to not overlook the errors of others?

My thought is there must be a typo in either premise (A) or premise (B) since they lead to what seems to me the opposite of the conclusion I think you trying to make.

 

[Sakeenah]

I want to learn about different religious beliefs. Not sure, but I'm thinking that comparing ideas about something we all have in common--forgiving--might open my eyes a little. So please tell me:

• What's your religion?

• What do you believe forgiveness is?

• When do you believe you should forgive and when should you not forgive?

If you want, feel free to cite a text from a religious author, so I may look it up myself.

- I'm a muslim

- I believe forgiving means not carrying a grudge in your heart for the person that wronged you.And it means that if you were given the chance to retaliate you would choose not to. To me it also means not wishing any bad, even if secretly upon the person.

- I always try to forgive .To me forgiving doesnt mean the person didn't do anything wrong .If they betrayed my trust it doesnt mean I have to trust them again.
But I will try to treat them well without resentment. It's best to move on because we can't change the past but we can use it to empower ourselves and become better people.
I read a quote once forgot who said it
" To forgive is to set a prisoner free only to discover that the prisoner is you."

- In Islam we believe God is Most Forgiving and He loves those who forgive.

quote :

" The prophet said:Whoever suffers an injury and forgives (the person responsible) God will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins."
( Prophet Muhammad)

 

[Spockrates]

I know this isn't addressed to me. However, it part of this collective thread I am participating in (not quite a Maara, but an excellent opportunity to show how Maara fits in with forgiveness.)

Your insight is welcome.

[emoji4]

Now, given that:

1. forgiveness is freeing your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to a sin against you

I appreciate the concise definition of forgiveness.

1. 
   AND
   
2. hatred can energize the collective Maara's groupmind memetics to the point where your individual mind and reasoning can be overcome by Maara's memetics
   AND
   
3. the hatred you hold onto can spread to others via the collective Maara
   THEN
4. not forgiving (not freeing your mind of hatred) leaves you vulnerable to losing your mind to Maara.
   AND
   
5. the hatred has spread to Maara.
   WHICH LEADS TO THE QUESTION
6. Can Maara forgive? Can a collective mindform free itself of hatred? (See point #1 for what forgiveness is.)

I'll leave the remaining unasked question unasked.

If one defines Maara as merely a shared opinion, then I'd say, no. For an opinion cannot act apart from the one who thinks it. But I'm ignorant of Maara. So what do I know?

I'm interested in seriously considering your definition of forgiveness, to see if it reveals how I myself should forgive. You said:

"forgiveness is freeing your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to a sin against you"

Would you say this is a complete definition? Or do you think forgiveness is not only this, but something much more?

 

[Spockrates]

You have this (quoted gospel) noted as being from Matthew 16, when it is actually Matthew 6. No big deal.

I do take issue with what this passage is conveying theologically. Thank God it is not the only divine revelation for what forgiveness is, or how it works. And thank God we all have it within us to understand how forgiveness actually works. No textual references are necessary, though admittedly it can help in understanding. IMO, this teaching does not help. It distorts how forgiveness actually works.

As I see it, and I fully realize this is a matter of debate, God is not in need of forgiveness or in forgiving. For me, the former (God being in need of forgiveness) is more arguable than the later (God need not forgive anyone). God is not sinning. Not making erroneous judgments about Creation, regardless of what some may claim (i.e. fallen children that are lost).

Therefore if Jesus did (actually) say God won't forgive us, then IMHO, Jesus was mistaken in theological understandings on this particular point. God already Loves Creation maximally, or supremely. There is no need to forgive when that is understood. The rabbit hole around this understanding runs deep, IMO but I like a good theological discussion as much as anyone and feel able to discuss it as long as may be desired. God will not be forgiving humanity anytime soon (read as ever) because from my understanding of God, there is no need. To God, we are perfection, already. Forgiveness of anyone helps make this clear, though perhaps not maximal. Not fully clear. Forgiveness of everyone, foremost your own Self, makes this abundantly clear. Even then, perhaps not maximal.

At a certain level of practical reality, facing whatever you are (or I am) up to today, it really doesn't matter how God fits in with forgiveness. If facing Heavenly Father directly, you'll know instantaneously if forgiveness to Creator is warranted and/or if somehow you are not forgiven by God. I would find the latter impossible to understand, while also understanding God how I understand God. I can imagine an unforgiving god, but not a Supreme Being.

You seem to have some familiarity with the biblical texts, so you might also appreciate how this passage enhances the theological discussion:

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
(Ephesians 4:32)

Would you say the author is correct in asserting that you and I should forgive others the same way God forgives us?

 

[Spockrates]

- I'm a muslim

Thank you for joining the conversation.

[emoji4]

- I believe forgiving means not carrying a grudge in your heart for the person that wronged you.And it means that if you were given the chance to retaliate you would choose not to. To me it also means not wishing any bad, even if secretly upon the person.

- I always try to forgive .To me forgiving doesnt mean the person didn't do anything wrong .If they betrayed my trust it doesnt mean I have to trust them again.

But I will try to treat them well without resentment. It's best to move on because we can't change the past but we can use it to empower ourselves and become better people.
I read a quote once forgot who said it
" To forgive is to set a prisoner free only to discover that the prisoner is you."

I appreciate your explanation.

- In Islam we believe God is Most Forgiving and He loves those who forgive.

quote :

" The prophet said:Whoever suffers an injury and forgives (the person responsible) God will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins."
( Prophet Muhammad)

Interesting how the prophet appears to state there is a one-to-one correspondence between forgiving and being forgiven.

Also you mentioned:

"- I believe forgiving means not carrying a grudge in your heart for the person that wronged you.And it means that if you were given the chance to retaliate you would choose not to. To me it also means not wishing any bad, even if secretly upon the person."

You also said:

"- I always try to forgive .To me forgiving doesnt mean the person didn't do anything wrong .If they betrayed my trust it doesnt mean I have to trust them again."

So I wonder if not trusting someone can in some cases be a form of retaliation. What do you think?

I mean, consider an example: A man is married to a woman he loves deeply and trust completely. In a moment of weakness, she has a sexual affair. The man finding this out plans to divorce her.

"Please forgive me!" she pleads, "Do not divorce me. I was so wrong to hurt you. I love you and will never betray you again!"

He responds, "I still love you and forgive you completely, but I cannot ever trust you, again. I'm going through with the divorce."

"You don't love me or forgive me!" she responds in tears. "If you did, you'd find it in your heart to trust me and wouldn't divorce me."

Would you say she is in error?

 

[allfoak]

 

[Spockrates]

I have a nickel. May I have some advice?

 

[allfoak]

I have a nickel. May I have some advice?

I don't accept wooden nickles.

 

[Spockrates]

I don't accept wooden nickles.

Well, it's virtual, not wooden. But point taken.

So it seems you'd agree with Sakeenah. You forgive me by not holding a grudge, but reconciliation is out of the question. Or is there something I might do to restore my relationship with you?

 

[allfoak]

Well, it's virtual, not wooden. But point taken.

So it seems you'd agree with Sakeenah. You forgive me by not holding a grudge, but reconciliation is out of the question. Or is there something I might do to restore my relationship with you?

re·store
rəˈstôr/
verb
verb: restore; 3rd person present: restores; past tense: restored; past participle: restored; gerund or present participle: restoring

1. bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate.
   "the government restored confidence in the housing market"
   synonyms: reinstate, bring back, reinstitute, reimpose, reinstall, reestablish
   "the aim to restore democracy"
   antonyms: abolish
   • return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position.
     "the effort to restore him to office isn't working"
   • repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.
     "the building has been lovingly restored"
     synonyms: repair, fix, mend, refurbish, recondition, rehabilitate, rebuild, reconstruct, remodel, overhaul, redevelop, renovate;More
     informaldo up, rehab
     "the building has been restored"
     antonyms: neglect
   • give (something previously stolen, taken away, or lost) back to the original owner or recipient.
     "the government will restore land and property to those who lost it through confiscation"
     synonyms: return, give back, hand back
     "he restored it to its rightful owner"

Origin
Middle English: from Old French restorer, from Latin restaurare ‘rebuild, restore.’
Translate restore to
Use over time for: restore
Translations, word origin, and more definitions

 

[savagewind]

"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alex. Please explain why you don't agree.

I do agree that an unexamined life is not worth living. But I think that an over-examined life is a worse life to live than an unexamined life.

 

[savagewind]

Hi Acim. Yes, thanks for pointing out my error. It would have been more accurate to say I have some ideas what forgiveness is, but these ideas are contradictory. So I am uncertain which of them is correct. Let me know if you desire further explanation.

Not sure I understand. Are you saying it's sometimes necessary for you to forgive yourself, but it's never necessary for you to forgive someone else?



Thank you for the concise definition.



I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are saying. On one hand you said:

(A) "In short sound bite form, forgiveness is: overlooking the error(s) you perceive in others."

On the other hand you said:

(B) "To me, knowing how to forgive (as if that equates to knowledge) is actually knowing how to position yourself in any relationship so that forgiveness is seen for what it is, not necessary."

So do you mean it is unnecessary to overlook the the errors I perceive in others? That is, are you saying it is necessary to not overlook the errors of others?

My thought is there must be a typo in either premise (A) or premise (B) since they lead to what seems to me the opposite of the conclusion I think you trying to make.

Spock! LOL I think you do him well. I can imagine it is he who is posting.

 

[allfoak]

Spoiler: Forgiveness: definition

for·give·ness
ˌfərˈɡivnəs/
noun
noun: forgiveness; plural noun: forgivenesses

1. the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven.
   "she is quick to ask forgiveness when she has overstepped the line"
   synonyms: pardon, absolution, exoneration, remission, dispensation, indulgence, clemency, mercy;More
   reprieve, amnesty;
   archaicshrift
   "we beg your forgiveness"
   antonyms: mercilessness, punishment

Origin

Old English forgiefenes, from forgiefen (past participle of forgiefan ‘forgive’) + the noun suffix -nes .
Translate forgiveness to
Use over time for: forgiveness

Translations, word origin, and more definitions

 

[Spockrates]

...

I'd say definition (8) is what I meant. We started our relationship well, I think. I'd like to know what I might do to return to what I lost.

 

[Spockrates]

I do agree that an unexamined life is not worth living. But I think that an over-examined life is a worse life to live than an unexamined life.

How so? Will you give an example?

 

[Spockrates]

Spock! LOL

Please don't think I was playing gotcha with Acin. I'm sincerely merely try to understand.

 

[allfoak]

I'd say definition (8) is what I meant. We started our relationship well, I think. I'd like to know what I might do to return to what I lost.

I have no idea what you have lost or what state of mind you were in when it happened.
How can i help?

 

[savagewind]

How so? Will you give an example?

An over examined life is a life lived that the person won't think through anything, do or say anything until he has considered all the possibilities.
I think it would be double minded.

But on the other hand, consciousness is a good thing. Considering how my life and my words affect myself and others is a good thing.

So I agree with the premise that an unexamined life is not the best life to live. I do not believe that an unexamined life is not worth living.

Animals live unexamined lives. Their lives are worth living for them. Are they not?

 

[savagewind]

Please don't think I was playing gotcha with Acin. I'm sincerely merely try to understand.

I think you do a really good Spock. It is a good thing imo.

 

[allfoak]

Animals live unexamined lives. Their lives are worth living for them. Are they not?

Animals exist because we exist.
They are part of us.