Wondering About Forgiveness

[savagewind]

Animals exist because we exist.
They are part of us.

Might you request your gang to stop producing dear ticks, please? I want to walk in the woods without the real fear of it making me disabled and miserable.

 

[Spockrates]

I have no idea what you have lost or what state of mind you were in when it happened.
How can i help?

Well, it seems I have offended you in some way. It would help if you let me know if I have.

 

[Spockrates]

I think you do a really good Spock. It is a good thing imo.

Perhaps I aspire to be logical like Spock, but I try to do a good Socrates. I'm nowhere near being like either one I try to imitate, but thanks for acknowledging my effort.

 

[allfoak]

Might you request your gang to stop producing dear ticks, please? I want to walk in the woods without the real fear of it making me disabled and miserable.

If you think the deer are the problem, or even the ticks for that matter, then you didn't understand what i said.
And if you think i am the problem then maybe you should pay me a nickle and we will talk about it.

 

[savagewind]

If you think the deer are the problem, or even the ticks for that matter, then you didn't understand what i said.
And if you think i am the problem then maybe you should pay me a nickle and we will talk about it.

Of course, deer are not the problem but they might agree with me if they could that the ticks are a problem. If life is all connected like you say, I do not doubt it, then let's get rid of some things. Shall we?

 

[Spockrates]

An over examined life is a life lived that the person won't think through anything, do or say anything until he has considered all the possibilities.
I think it would be double minded.

But on the other hand, consciousness is a good thing. Considering how my life and my words affect myself and others is a good thing.

So I agree with the premise that an unexamined life is not the best life to live. I do not believe that an unexamined life is not worth living.

Animals live unexamined lives. Their lives are worth living for them. Are they not?

I'd say life has value, but some life is more valuable--and hence more worth living--than other life. Even many who believe in reincarnation are of the opinion that it would be better to be reincarnated as a great spiritual leader than as a fat cow.

So Socrates affirmed his belief in reincarnation. Yet he also believed the life of a lover of wisdom--which is what the word philosopher means--is better than a life that lives in blatant disregard for wisdom. Wisdom he believed to be a living God, and to live like this God is to become like Him, with the hope of ceasing the endless cycle of birth, death and birth again. The one who most examines his life is most likely to cease being reincarnated and live forever in the presence of the only wise God.

So I like to say to Christians like yourself--and many disagree with me--that as John the Baptist was a witness to the ancient Jewish people, perhaps Socrates was a witness to the ancient Greeks. He at least opened their minds to the idea that there was something or someone greater and wiser and more worthy of becoming like and being with than the gods. For this he became a martyr.

 

[allfoak]

When @Spockrates said goodbye

 

[crossfire]

Your insight is welcome.

[emoji4]



I appreciate the concise definition of forgiveness.


If one defines Maara as merely a shared opinion, then I'd say, no. For an opinion cannot act apart from the one who thinks it. But I'm ignorant of Maara. So what do I know?

I'm interested in seriously considering your definition of forgiveness, to see if it reveals how I myself should forgive. You said:

"forgiveness is freeing your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to a sin against you"

Would you say this is a complete definition? Or do you think forgiveness is not only this, but something much more?

I would say that unburdening your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to what is being forgiven would be another way of saying "forgive from the heart/mind." It is not just legalese window dressing to cover up hatred and resentment. It is actually removing resentment and hatred from your mind regarding it. {And thereby not passing on that hatred on to the collective Maara. } By freeing your mind of hatred, you are also helping to free the collective Maara from hatred and resentment--you are "causing" "Maara" to "forgive." (Compare to your quoted scripture of by forgiving, god will forgive, by not forgiving, god will not forgive, and the definition of forgiveness by unburdoning mind of hatred and resentment.)

 

[allfoak]

Of course, deer are not the problem but they might agree with me if they could that the ticks are a problem. If life is all connected like you say, I do not doubt it, then let's get rid of some things. Shall we?

We all know where it has to start.

 

[Spockrates]

When @Spockrates said goodbye

....he also said he hoped to soon meet again.

[emoji4]

 

[savagewind]

We all know where it has to start.

We who agree know where it has to start. I think that very few know where it has to start.

 

[Spockrates]

I would say that unburdening your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to what is being forgiven would be another way of saying "forgive from the heart/mind." It is not just legalese window dressing to cover up hatred and resentment. It is actually removing resentment and hatred from your mind regarding it. {And thereby not passing on that hatred on to the collective Maara. } By freeing your mind of hatred, you are also helping to free the collective Maara from hatred and resentment--you are "causing" "Maara" to "forgive." (Compare to your quoted scripture of by forgiving, god will forgive, by not forgiving, god will not forgive, and the definition of forgiveness by unburdoning mind of hatred and resentment.)

Thank you. I hope, though you don't get the wrong idea. Jesus' statement compared to other biblical texts seems a paradox to Christians. For they believe God to be incapable of hatred and resentment. So I ask them, "If we are to forgive the same way God forgives, and since God never feels hatred or resentment, then how can forgiveness be removing hatred and resentment?"

I realize this paradox doesn't affect you, since you don't think the Bible authoritative, as they do. My opinion is that if the biblical text be true, then forgiveness must not be what we feel, but instead what we do. For God forgives by establishing or restoring an offender's relationship with him, they say. So I ask them if He wants us to forgive the same way.

(But as I said to others, this is in no way certain. For the text might be untrue, or my understanding of it might be false.)

CONTINUED...

 

[allfoak]

....he also said he hoped to soon meet again.

And thus, it seems we have, in deed met again.
But have we?
At what point did we part and at what point did we meet?

par·a·dox
ˈperəˌdäks/
noun
noun: paradox; plural noun: paradoxes

1. a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.
   "a potentially serious conflict between quantum mechanics and the general theory of relativity known as the information paradox"
   • a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.
     "in a paradox, he has discovered that stepping back from his job has increased the rewards he gleans from it"
     synonyms: contradiction, contradiction in terms, self-contradiction, inconsistency, incongruity;More
     oxymoron;
     conflict, anomaly;
     enigma, puzzle, mystery, conundrum
     "the paradox of war is that you have to kill people in order to stop people from killing each other"
   • a situation, person, or thing that combines contradictory features or qualities.
     "the mingling of deciduous trees with elements of desert flora forms a fascinating ecological paradox"

 

[allfoak]

We who agree know where it has to start. I think that very few know where it has to start.

Only those who know where it starts are responsible for starting.
The connections get made, more learn how to start and before you know it....

Magick!

 

[Spockrates]

I would say that unburdening your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to what is being forgiven would be another way of saying "forgive from the heart/mind." It is not just legalese window dressing to cover up hatred and resentment. It is actually removing resentment and hatred from your mind regarding it. {And thereby not passing on that hatred on to the collective Maara. } By freeing your mind of hatred, you are also helping to free the collective Maara from hatred and resentment--you are "causing" "Maara" to "forgive." (Compare to your quoted scripture of by forgiving, god will forgive, by not forgiving, god will not forgive, and the definition of forgiveness by unburdoning mind of hatred and resentment.)

I think, though you must be correct. But I wonder if how one feels is only half of what forgiving is. I wonder if what one decides to do is the other half.

 

[Spockrates]

And thus, it seems we have, in deed met again.
But have we?
At what point did we part and at what point did we meet?

Then I'm glad to see I was mistaken, and you never were offended.

[emoji4]

 

[crossfire]

I think, though you must be correct. But I wonder if how one feels is only half of what forgiving is. I wonder if what one decides to do is the other half.

Removing hatred and resentment from your mind is not doing something?

This would have to come first, before external action, if you want any external action to be sincere and genuine--not "window dressing" that serves to cover up the hatred and resentment still in your mind.

 

[Spockrates]

Removing hatred and resentment from your mind is not doing something?

This would have to come first, before external action, if you want any external action to be sincere and genuine--not "window dressing" that serves to cover up the hatred and resentment still in your mind.

Agreed, the emotion appears to be essential. But I was thinking doing something more--something that has a real impact on the one forgiven, like trusting the person and not ending the relationship.

 

[crossfire]

Agreed, the emotion appears to be essential. But I was thinking doing something more--something that has a real impact on the one forgiven, like trusting the person and not ending the relationship.

I would say that would more properly be called "compassion" rather than "forgiveness."

 

[Thief]

forgiveness is a thoughtful discipline

if you are doing so with only your emotions for guidance......I would then argue.....

uh-oh!