Wondering About Forgiveness

[Spockrates]

I find it interesting that a discussion about forgiving turns into the one asking being accused of not really wanting to know. I'm sincere when I say this is not so.

 

[allfoak]

So in response to your premise that one must possess the truth before he can ask about it, I'd say this: While one must have an idea before he may ask his teacher about it, one who asks to be taught doesn't have to already possess the answers to the questions one is asking. It's entirely possible, and often is the case, that the one asking the questions does not possess the truth about the ideas he has. In this case that one is me.

We all posses the truth, it is how to access it that is at issue.
Socrates recognized the truth because he was already in possession of it.

You have the truth, you just don't know how to access it.

 

[allfoak]

I find it interesting that a discussion about forgiving turns into the one asking being accused of not really wanting to know. I'm sincere when I say this is not so.

It is the way in which you seek your answers that gives this impression.
You ask but you do not let on that you are learning anything.
We have no way of knowing because you don't tell us.

 

[Spockrates]

We all posses the truth, it is how to access it that is at issue.
Socrates recognized the truth because he was already in possession of it.

You have the truth, you just don't know how to access it.

In Meno and elsewhere Socrates actually agrees with the truth of your assertion--not that he knew the truth, but that human beings are born with it. Realizing the truth is a process of remembering what we knew before we were born, but have since then forgotten, he inferred. Like other ideas he thought were true, he said he learned this from others. If we were to ask him why he doesn't claim to know what others do, I suppose he'd say to me and you that his God cursed him with a poor memory!

But I don't think that by agreeing with you that we all have the truth inside us Socrates is contradicting himself with his metaphor of the birdcage. At least I don't see how he is, since he makes a distinction between having the truth and possessing it. Perhaps a more modern way of making the same assertion would be this:

One can have an idea what the truth might be but still not possess the knowledge that would make him sure it is in fact true. I think this is true, don't you?

 

[Spockrates]

It is the way in which you seek your answers that gives this impression.
You ask but you do not let on that you are learning anything.
We have no way of knowing because you don't tell us.

Well, impressions I have are often misleading. For too often I get the wrong impression about someone! But what can I say or do to put your mind at ease and help you see you have the wrong impression of me?

Perhaps you can ask me questions, for a change? Ask me what I think about specific things you know about forgiveness. I'll do my best to answer frankly and transparently. If I say I'm unsure about one truth or another, ask me to explain why. I'll do my best to give you answers, instead of more questions.

You see? I think it's a real barrier to reasoning with people in our modern world. We have this opportunity to really think things through together, but we miss out. We're too busy telling people what they should believe instead of thoughtfully asking and considering why they don't.

The ones who don't believe either jump whole hog into a heated debate, or they politely say thanks, and then say to themselves after walking away, "Yeah, right. What a load of bull!" There's often no real attempt to really try to understand anyone they don't yet believe.

But I want to do my best to not imitate the behavior of such people. To do what I think is wrong would be illogical in the extreme.

 

[allfoak]

Perhaps you can ask me questions, for a change?

There have been many.
You have ignored entire posts of mine.

We shall see if you are serious.

What is it that you are uncertain of when it comes to the idea of forgiveness?
What are these contradictions of which you speak but are unwilling to tell anyone about?

If you are concerned about looking foolish then you should not be on a message board.
Your time, along with everyone else's will come eventually.

If you are interested in exploring these things then lets do it.
This time i will stay out of the rabbit hole so you don't get lost following me around.

 

[Spockrates]

There have been many.
You have ignored entire posts of mine.

My apologies. I try to do my best to respond to every post, yet sometimes I fall short. At the beginning of this discussion, I was carrying on conversations with several people at once. Maybe now that it's just you and me, I can give you the full attention you deserve.

We shall see if you are serious.

You mean you shall see? For I already know I am.

What is it that you are uncertain of when it comes to the idea of forgiveness?

I'm uncertain what forgiveness is and what the eternal consequences might be for my ignorance. I don't want to bore you with the details of Christian concepts that raise this concern, unless you'd like to hear them. Some were discussed with Christians in the discussion, earlier. The simplified logical "argument" goes like this:

a. God won't forgive those who don't forgive
b. I want to be forgiven by God
c. Since I'm unsure what forgiveness is, I'm unsure I am forgiving

Therefore

I'm concerned I'll remain forever unforgiven after death

What are these contradictions of which you speak but are unwilling to tell anyone about?

This logical "argument"

Premise A. Forgiveness is merely ceasing to hold a grudge

Conclusion A. Therefore, there is nothing I need to say to or do for others to forgive

contradicts this logical "argument"

Premise B. Forgiveness isn't merely ceasing to hold a grudge, it's also saying something forgiving to or doing something forgiving for the one forgiven

Conclusion B. Therefore if I only cease to hold a grudge, I have not forgiven

If you are concerned about looking foolish then you should not be on a message board.
Your time, along with everyone else's will come eventually.

Not concerned about others knowing I am a fool.
[emoji4]

If you are interested in exploring these things then lets do it.
This time i will stay out of the rabbit hole so you don't get lost following me around.

Yes, let's.

 

[crossfire]

I'm uncertain what forgiveness is and what the eternal consequences might be for my ignorance. I don't want to bore you with the details of Christian concepts that raise this concern, unless you'd like to hear them. Some were discussed with Christians in the discussion, earlier. The simplified logical "argument" goes like this:

a. God won't forgive those who don't forgive
b. I want to be forgiven by God
c. Since I'm unsure what forgiveness is, I'm unsure I am forgiving

Therefore

I'm concerned I'll remain forever unforgiven after death



This logical "argument"

Premise A. Forgiveness is merely ceasing to hold a grudge

Conclusion A. Therefore, there is nothing I need to say to or do for others to forgive

contradicts this logical "argument"

Premise B. Forgiveness isn't merely ceasing to hold a grudge, it's also saying something forgiving to or doing something forgiving for the one forgiven

Conclusion B. Therefore if I only cease to hold a grudge, I have not forgiven


Not concerned about others knowing I am a fool.
[emoji4]

Yes, let's.

Alright, let me speak Christian to you: Let's consider Matthew chapter 5:
Verses 21-26 describe how murder begins in the heart. Forgive your brother before approaching god in worship, and reach a settlement with your adversaries first.
Verses 27-30 likewise describes adultery beginning within the heart, and specifically advises to toss away the elements (of your mind) that cause you to sin--either hatred in the case of murder, or illicit desire in the case of adultery. If you don't rid your mind of these, your mind will continue to burn with either hatred or with desire.

These would cover your premise A above. These are necessary before approaching god.

As for premise B above:

Go the Second Mile
38 “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you, don’t resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 As for the one who wants to sue you and take away your shirt, let him have your coat as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and don’t turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don’t even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

This demonstrates how hate does not overcome hate. Hatred is only overcome by non-hatred. The above actions shows how compassion can come shining through once the hatred that covers and contains it is removed. It demonstrates an understanding of how these work.

Therefore:
Premise A is the only one necessary for god's forgiveness. You can approach god in this state.
Premise B demonstrates an understanding of how Premise A works. I would say that the understanding is the reward itself, since god causes the sun to rise and the rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[Spockrates]

Alright, let me speak Christian to you: Let's consider Matthew chapter 5:
Verses 21-26 describe how murder begins in the heart. Forgive your brother before approaching god in worship, and reach a settlement with your adversaries first.

Yes, murder begins in the "heart" or mind, but does it always end there, or is murder more complete when the one who has murder in her heart kills the one she is considering murdering?

Verses 27-30 likewise describes adultery beginning within the heart, and specifically advises to toss away the elements (of your mind) that cause you to sin--either hatred in the case of murder, or illicit desire in the case of adultery. If you don't rid your mind of these, your mind will continue to burn with either hatred or with desire.

Yes, adultery and lust in other forms begins in the "heart" or mind, but does it always end there, or is adultery more complete when the one who has adulterous thoughts carries them out in a sexual act?

These would cover your premise A above. These are necessary before approaching god.

Yes, I think I see your point regarding murderous thoughts. Riding oneself of them is essential to forgiving. Not sure I see how riding oneself of adulterous thoughts has anything to do with forgiving the one thought about, though, unless the one thinking them is considering rape.

You provided much information to consider. To make it easier for me to comprehend, let's first consider your thoughts on Argument A. After I understand those, I'll have a better idea of what you are thinking about Argument B. If that's OK with you. I don't want to bite off more wisdom than I can chew!

 

[crossfire]

Yes, murder begins in the "heart" or mind, but does it always end there, or is murder more complete when the one who has murder in her heart kills the one she is considering murdering?



Yes, adultery and lust in other forms begins in the "heart" or mind, but does it always end there, or is adultery more complete when the one who has adulterous thoughts carries them out in a sexual act?



Not sure I understand what you mean. In what way are murderous and adulterous thoughts like forgiving thoughts? Or are you making some other point?

I'm addressing your premises.

You provided much information to consider. To make it easier for me to comprehend, let's first consider your reasons why Argument A. After I understand that, I'll have a better idea of what you are thinking about Argument B. If that's OK with you.

Argument A: let's look at Matt 5:21-26 a bit more closely:

21 “You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Fool!’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You moron!’ will be subject to hellfire. 23 So if you are offering your gift on the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Reach a settlement quickly with your adversary while you’re on the way with him, or your adversary will hand you over to the judge, the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I assure you: You will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny!​

"Everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."
Therefore, anyone holding a grudge or (holding onto hatred--has not forgiven) is subject to judgment (has not been forgiven by god.) This supports "Forgive, and you shall be forgiven" of Premise A.

Matt 5:27-30

27 “You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to go into hell!​

The highlighted verses specifically refer to getting rid of what causes the beginning of sin--the specific examples cited in the texts being hatred and illicit desire, which also supports that forgiveness is based upon freeing your mind of the grudges and illicit desire. With these things gone, your whole mind better protected from not being totally overcome and set aflame by burning hatred or burning desire, as well. When your mind is overcome by these things is when you actually commit violent acts, murders or adulteries. (You do things you would not otherwise do.)

 

[Spockrates]

I'm addressing your premises.

Argument A: let's look at Matt 5:21-26 a bit more closely:

21 “You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Fool!’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You moron!’ will be subject to hellfire. 23 So if you are offering your gift on the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Reach a settlement quickly with your adversary while you’re on the way with him, or your adversary will hand you over to the judge, the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I assure you: You will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny!​

"Everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."
Therefore, anyone holding a grudge or (holding onto hatred--has not forgiven) is subject to judgment (has not been forgiven by god.) This supports "Forgive, and you shall be forgiven" of Premise A.

Matt 5:27-30

27 “You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to go into hell!​

The highlighted verses specifically refer to getting rid of what causes the beginning of sin--the specific examples cited in the texts being hatred and illicit desire, which also supports that forgiveness is based upon freeing your mind of the grudges and illicit desire. With these things gone, your whole mind better protected from not being totally overcome and set aflame by burning hatred or burning desire, as well. When your mind is overcome by these things is when you actually commit violent acts, murders or adulteries. (You do things you would not otherwise do.)

OK. Please continue.

 

[crossfire]

OK. Please continue.

Any questions about how these refer to Premise A?
Can we agree that these refer to Premise A?

 

[crossfire]

Any questions about how these refer to Premise A?
Can we agree that these refer to Premise A?

Wait, there is something relating to Premise B in those texts:

25 Reach a settlement quickly with your adversary while you’re on the way with him, or your adversary will hand you over to the judge, the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I assure you: You will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny!​

Premise B:

Premise B. Forgiveness isn't merely ceasing to hold a grudge, it's also saying something forgiving to or doing something forgiving for the one forgiven

Conclusion B. Therefore if I only cease to hold a grudge, I have not forgiven.​

It appears that making amends affects people involved, not god. If you don't make peace with them, their hatred has not been stilled.

 

[Spockrates]

Any questions about how these refer to Premise A?
Can we agree that these refer to Premise A?

I'd say premise A does indeed describe Jesus' words about murderous thoughts. Premise A does not necessarily describe Jesus' words about adulterous thoughts. For one does not have to hold a grudge against the one she wants to sleep with. But I suppose a person considering rape might have a combination of murderous and adulterous thoughts. So yes, I can see how both passages can be described by A.

However, I can also see how both passages can be described by premise B. Let me know if you want to know why.

 

[crossfire]

I'd say premise A does indeed describe Jesus' words about murderous thoughts. Premise A does not necessarily describe Jesus' words about adulterous thoughts. For one does not have to hold a grudge against the one she wants to sleep with. But I suppose a person considering rape might have a combination of murderous and adulterous thoughts. So yes, I can see how both passages can be described by A.

However, I can also see how both passages can be described by premise B. Let me know if you want to know why.

Of course I'd like to know why!

 

[Spockrates]

Wait, there is something relating to Premise B in those texts:

25 Reach a settlement quickly with your adversary while you’re on the way with him, or your adversary will hand you over to the judge, the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I assure you: You will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny!​

Premise B:

Premise B. Forgiveness isn't merely ceasing to hold a grudge, it's also saying something forgiving to or doing something forgiving for the one forgiven

Conclusion B. Therefore if I only cease to hold a grudge, I have not forgiven.​

It appears that making amends affects people involved, not god. If you don't make peace with them, their hatred has not been stilled.

Yes, that makes sense. But your previous argument still explains this. You said that we forgive with our minds only. Any forgiving actions taken cannot rightly be called forgiving. They are instead compassionate. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Spockrates]

Of course I'd like to know why!

You're second reply was close to what I was going to say! [emoji4]

 

[crossfire]

Premise A does not necessarily describe Jesus' words about adulterous thoughts.

Adulterous thoughts can lead to aggressive behaviour:

 

[crossfire]

Yes, that makes sense. But your previous argument still explains this. You said that we forgive with our minds only. Any forgiving actions taken cannot rightly be called forgiving. They are instead compassionate. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes.

 

[Spockrates]

Adulterous thoughts can lead to aggressive behaviour:

Agreed.