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Wondering About Forgiveness

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Please translate the entire text I quoted so I might see what you mean.
Dhammapada 1:5 Pali:
5. Na hi verena verāni sammantīdha kudācanaṃ 5
Averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.​
Pali Text Society Pali-English Dictionary
Ca

Ca (indef. enchtic particle) [Vedic ca adv. to rel. pron. *qṷo, idg. *que=Cr. te, Lat. que, Goth. -- h. Cp. ka, ki, ku] 1. Indefinite (after demonstr. pron. in the sense of kiŋ=what about? or how is it? cp. kiŋ)=ever, whoever, what -- ever, etc. [Sk. kaśca, Gr. o(s te, Lat: quisque, Goth. hvazuh] so ca whoever (see below 3), tañ ca pan' amhākaŋ ruccati tena c' amhā attamanā M i.93; yañ ca kho . . . ceteti yañ ca pakappeti . . . whatever he thinks, whatever he intends . . . S ii.65. As a rule the Pali form corresp. to Sk. kaśca is *kascid=koci,& ci (cid) is the regular P. representative of the indefinite ca (cp. cana & api). -- 2. Copulative or disjunctive according to the general context being positive or negative. (a) copulative: and, then, now: tadā ca now then, and then (in historical exposition) J iii.188. Most frequent in connecting two or three words, usually placed after the second, but also after the third: atthaŋ anatthañ ca Dh 256; pubbâparāni ca Dh 352; alaŋ etehi ambehi jambūhi panasehi ca J ii.160. -- In the same sense added to each link of the chain as ca -- ca (cp. Sk. ca -- ca, Gr. te te, Lat. que que; also mixed with constituents of similar pairs as api -- ca, cp. te -- kai): tuyhañ ca tassā ca to you and her (orig. this or whatever to you, whatever to her)=to you as well as to her J i.151. Often with the first member emphasized by eva: c' eva, as well as: hasi c' eva rodi ca he laughed as well as cried J i.167; maŋsena c' eva phalāphalena ca with flesh as well as with all kinds of fruit J iii.127; subhaddako c' eva supesalo ca J iii.82; c' eva apace padūse pi ca waste and even defile ThA 72 (Ap v.40). <-> (b) disjunctive: but (esp. after a negation): yo ca but who Th 1, 401; yadā ca but when (cp. tadā ca) J iii.128. In conditional clauses (cp. 3) combd with sace=but if, on the other hand: sace agāraŋ ajjhāvasati . . . sace ca pabbajati agārā Sn 1003. With neg, na ca=but not: mahatī vata te bondi, na ca paññā tadūpikā (but your wisdom is not in the same proportion) J ii.160. <-> 3. Conditional: if [=Vedic ced, Lat. absque] D i.186,
207; ii.36, 57 (jāti ca not va); M i.91; S iii.66 (rūpañ ca attā abhavissa); A i.58; v.87; J ii.110 (ciram pi kho khadeyya yavaŋ . . . ravamāno ca dūsayi: "he might have caten a long time, if he had not come to harm by his cry," or "but"); iv.487; v.185, 216 (Sakko ca me varaŋ dajjā so ca labbhetha me varo: "if S. will give me a wish, that wish will be granted," or: "whatever wish he will allow, that one will be fulfilled"); vi.206, 208. -- na ca (at the beginning of an interrog. phrase)= if not S i.190 (ahaŋ ca kho . . . pavāremi, na ca me Bhagavā kiñci garahati: if the Bh. will not blame me). For BSk. ca=ced see AvŚ ii.189, n. o.
Basically means "that one."
This page will give you the translation of the words as you hover your cursor over them. The passage you want is under the subheading: Kāḷayakkhinīvatthu
http://suttacentral.net/pi/dhp

Edit to add: you'll have to enable the hover translation feature by clicking on the three lines (menu) on the upper left corner of the page. It will give you a message that the lookup dictionary has been enabled under the controls tab of the menu.

Edit to add more: you might have to check the box "keep sidebar extended."
 
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Spockrates

Wonderer.
Please translate the entire text I quoted so I might see what you mean.

Yes, the translation here by one scholar doesn't have the word only:

https://archive.org/stream/thedhammapada00unknuoft/thedhammapada00unknuoft_djvu.txt

Instead, it translates the text this way:

"5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time. Hatred ceases by love. This is an old rule."

I'd observe that I don't yet see the translation mentioning an alternative to love for putting an end to hatred, either. So rather than commit the informal fallacy of making an argument from ignorance, I'd need a passage stating hatred ceases by some other method than love. Since the phrase, "hatred ceases" occur only in the quoted passage, I was unable to determine any alternative to love for ending hate.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Yes, the translation here by one scholar doesn't have the word only:

https://archive.org/stream/thedhammapada00unknuoft/thedhammapada00unknuoft_djvu.txt

Instead, it translates the text this way:

"5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time. Hatred ceases by love. This is an old rule."

I'd observe that I don't yet see that it mentions an alternative to love for putting an end to hatred, either. Rather than commit the informal fallacy of making an argument from ignorance, I'd need a passage stating hatred ceases by something other than love. Since the phrase, "hatred ceases" occur only in the quoted passage, I was unable to determine any alternative to love for ending hate.
The word for hatred used in the passage is verena. The word used for what causes hatred to cease is averena, which is the "not" prefix "a" followed by "verena" "hatred." The Pali word for loving-kindness is metta, and the Pali word for compassion is karuna, neither of which are used in this passage.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
The word for hatred used in the passage is verena. The word used for what causes hatred to cease is averena, which is the "not" prefix "a" followed by "verena" "hatred." The Pali word for loving-kindness is metta, and the Pali word for compassion is karuna, neither of which are used in this passage.

Well, the translator of the text Friedrich Max Muller was a renown German scholar of the religions of India. He is considered one of the founders of the science of religion. Are you saying we should not trust this scholar's skill to accurately translate the text?

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Max-Muller

http://rel.as.ua.edu/aboutrelbiomuller.html
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Well, the translator of the text Friedrich Max Muller was a renown German scholar of the religions of India. He is considered one of the founders of the science of religion. Are you saying we should not trust this scholar's ability to accurately translate the text?
Try comparing other translations.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I will. Please provide a link to an English translation by a scholar as respected as Muller. The link should have the name of the translator(s) so I may verify they are authorities I should trust.
Acharya Buddharakkhita translation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html
Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html
Ven W Sarada Maha Thero translation
http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_twin.htm

I hope these meet with your approval.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Acharya Buddharakkhita translation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html
Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html
Ven W Sarada Maha Thero translation
http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_twin.htm

I hope these meet with your approval.

Unfortunately they don't provide the names of the translators. I did find one translation by Harischandra Kaviratna, which uses the word non-hate instead of love, however I haven't found any information about the qualifications of this translator.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
But please don't think I'm being bias against Buddhism. I use the same scrutiny when comparing translators of the Bible. Also, I recognize different sources and different methods of translating can result in contrary translations. For example, there are more literal translations of the Bible, translating word for word the text, and there are also less literal but more easy to understand thought for thought translations of the Bible. Comparing translations of the two sometimes results in apparent--though not necessarily actual--contradictions. [emoji4]
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Acharya Buddharakkhita translation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html
Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.than.html
Ven W Sarada Maha Thero translation
http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_twin.htm

I hope these meet with your approval.
Unfortunately they don't provide the names of the translators. I did find one translation by Harischandra Kaviratna, which uses the word non-hate instead of love, however I haven't found any information about the qualifications of this translator.
I listed the names of the translators above the links for your convenience, or did you not see them? The first two links have the names of the translators right there on the top of the page. I can't see how you could have missed that.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I listed the names of the translators above the links for your convenience, or did you not see them? The first two links have the names of the translators right there on the top of the page. I can't see how you could have missed that.

My apologies. I thought those were phrases in a language other than English denoting maybe the religious group who uses the translations. Forgive my ignorant assumption. What do you know of these authors?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Also, I'm willing to save time by considering the accuracy of the translation non-hate, without investigating the credentials of the translators, for now. Would you say that my inference made earlier about non-hate is correct?

That is, since non-hate is a lack of hate and a lack of love, is it best described as apathy? If so, it seems this would be the intended meaning of the passage:

"5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time. Hatred ceases by [apathy]."
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
471c9512f479a1195b40251e17bc139c.jpg


If so, then I think Allfoak was paying me a compliment when he asked if I was a sociopath! For sociopaths are sometimes perpetually apathetic and feel neither compassion nor hatred. Who better to foster non-hatred then one who naturally feels nothing at all for anyone, even himself? One might say sociopaths have a natural talent for non-hatred. Their skill for it is unmatched by the more sane among us.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Also, I'm willing to save time by considering the accuracy of the translation non-hate, without investigating the credentials of the translators, for now. Would you say that my inference made earlier about non-hate is correct?

That is, since non-hate is a lack of hate and a lack of love, is it best described as apathy? If so, it seems this would be the intended meaning of the passage:

"5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time. Hatred ceases by [apathy]."
No, hatred does not overcome hatred, so the way hatred would be overcome by non-hatred (since meeting hatred with hatred doesn't work.) It does not specify apathy, nor does it specify compassion, nor love. It says "non-hatred." Hatred has been ruled out--being ineffective against hatred. Try something other than hatred.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
My apologies. I thought those were phrases in a language other than English denoting maybe the religious group who uses the translations. Forgive my ignorant assumption. What do you know of these authors?
Thanissaro Bhikkhu is a Thai Forest Tradition monk. I think he was born with a Dutch name. Geoffrey DeGraff, I think, or something close to that.
Acharya Buddharakkhita was a Buddhist monk who was born in India.
Here is the profile for Ven. Weragoda Sarada Maha Thero:
http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/library/profile.php?aapath=37
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
No, hatred does not overcome hatred, so the way hatred would be overcome by non-hatred (since meeting hatred with hatred doesn't work.) It does not specify apathy, nor does it specify compassion, nor love. It says "non-hatred." Hatred has been ruled out--being ineffective against hatred. Try something other than hatred.

Well, I thought apathy is a lack of compassion as well as a lack of hatred. It seems one who is apathetic is neither empathetic nor resentful--she simply doesn't care. I'm thinking that non-hatred is a lack of hatred. But are you saying this isn't what apathy is?

apathy
[ap-uh-thee]
noun, plural apathies.

1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.

2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

3. Also, apatheia, apathia [ap-uh-thee-uh] (Show IPA). Stoicism. freedom from emotion of any kind.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Well, I thought apathy is a lack of compassion as well as a lack of hatred. It seems one who is apathetic is neither empathetic nor resentful--she simply doesn't care. But are you saying this isn't what apathy is?

apathy
[ap-uh-thee]
noun, plural apathies.

1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.

2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.
The word in the text is averena (not hate.) The words viveka (aloofness) or viraaga (withdrawl) do not appear in the text, and neither do the words karuna, metta, nor does piti, nor does kama.
 
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