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world wide flood?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This list is taken from the Watchtower publication 'Insight on the Scriptures' Volume
Well, a bunch of those stories (the Babylonian flood myths) came out of the same tradition as the Hebrew flood myth. In fact, AFAIK, it's considered likely that the Hebrew flood myth was based on the Gilgamesh flood story.

As for the rest, I'll just grab one of the examples - the Cree flood myth - so we can see how well it corresponds to the Bible flood myth:

After successfully surviving the shaking tree, Maasu creeps up on the Kâchâmishikunich [‘Cut-off back of fish ones’] and stabs each of them with the three-barbed head of a harpoon, leaving them embedded in them. He does not kill them outright, as that would unleash a flood upon the world. He goes off to construct a raft which he loads with pairs of animals, as well as different kinds of vegetation. Walking away, he meets his elder sister Frog, singing that she is a healer, on her way to cure the Kâchâmishikunich. She does not recognize him, and mispronounces his name as Mîsw. Taking offence, Maasu peels off her skin, dons it and approached the wicked ones, singing her song “I am a healer, I am a healer". Although the Kâchâmishikunich find Frog's voice different, they allow Maasu to approach them; he throws off the frog skin, kills them and the flood waters begin to rise.

Regaining his raft, he finds the ugly Waterdog, whom he tells to face away from all the other animals, as they are frightened. Noticing logs loosened by the Giant Beaver floating by, he instructs them to swim by with teeth bared and eyes closed, then hits and breaks their teeth. Next the Giant Lynx try to tip the raft but, instructing them to close their eyes, Masw cuts off their tails and they die from blood loss, explaining the short tail of the modern lynx.

Now Maasu decides to create land so that the animals will be able to find food. In succession he lowers the water animals, otter, beaver, muskrat and seal, who all drown. Finally little Mink, who stays down longer than the others, also drowns. But she is hauled back up clutching sand and moss in her tiny paws.

Maasu blows on her to bring her back to life but explains to her that she will no longer be able to stay underwater for any length of time.

Blowing on the sand and moss, Maasu creates the world again. He enlarges it by continued blowing and sends Frog, Caribou and finally Loon to survey the extent of it.

Maasu now asks the animals to decide the length of the winter and summer seasons. Rejecting the number of spots on Loon's back and hairs between Caribou's toes, he chooses the six fingers and toes offered by Frog to comprise the twelve months and the animals return to their usual habitats.
http://www.eastcree.org/pdf/MaasuCommentary.pdf

Do you seriously think that this is a Cree version of the Noah story? Funny, I missed the part in Genesis where the flood was caused by Noah using his sister's skin as a disguise to kill "wicked ones".

stories of ancestors 'growing out of the ground', really?

Well, we know thats not how humans come into existence, so i think we can safely conclude that is some kind of 'myth' which does not at all fit in the bounds of reality.

Similarly, we know that a global flood myth does not at all fit in the bounds of reality.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Well, a bunch of those stories (the Babylonian flood myths) came out of the same tradition as the Hebrew flood myth. In fact, AFAIK, it's considered likely that the Hebrew flood myth was based on the Gilgamesh flood story.

As for the rest, I'll just grab one of the examples - the Cree flood myth - so we can see how well it corresponds to the Bible flood myth:


http://www.eastcree.org/pdf/MaasuCommentary.pdf

Do you seriously think that this is a Cree version of the Noah story? Funny, I missed the part in Genesis where the flood was caused by Noah using his sister's skin as a disguise to kill "wicked ones".



Similarly, we know that a global flood myth does not at all fit in the bounds of reality.

the stories dont have to be exactly the same... they are still legends with similarity which shows that it was event which no one ever forgot and its legend is still remembered today.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
what if the mountain is 1 litre in volumn and the water covering it is 10 litres?

do you think the situation might be reversed then?

There is 10 times as much water in the ocean as there is land above it.

Sure, and of course the fact that there is 10 times as much water as there is land above it means that there is not enough water to cover the land - because the land is ABOVE IT. As you say, there is a lot of land sticking out above the water - the water does not cover it. So there is obviously not enough water to cover the land. If there was enohgh water to cover the land there would be no land sticking out above it right?

Sigh

That is what I said. A 1lt volume mountain would not necessarily be covered by 10lt of water.

Try this experiment:

Take a stone the size of your thumb.

Place that stone in the middle of your kitchen floor.

Pour 10 lt of water on it

Note how the stone still rises above the surface of the water, even though the stone is only about 1/20th of a litre.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
the stories dont have to be exactly the same... they are still legends with similarity which shows that it was event which no one ever forgot and its legend is still remembered today.

No. Given that those stories are from differen times and places they are obviously. not about the same event.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
the stories dont have to be exactly the same...
... or the same at all, apparently.

they are still legends with similarity which shows that it was event which no one ever forgot and its legend is still remembered today.

But here's the problem:

- if flood myths are rooted in separate flood experiences (or experiences with multiple floods, or just a general knowledge of floods), then we would expect to see legends with similarity that aren't exactly the same.

- if flood myths are rooted in a single global flood experience, then we would expect to see legends with similarity that aren't exactly the same.

This is why I don't find it compelling at all when you pull out a list of flood stories you claim are similar (I'm not sure - I'm not going to check them all) but aren't exactly the same.

We know that floods - sometimes major ones - happen all over the world. Major floods of the kind we know happen are perfectly adequate to explain any commonalities in myths involving floods. You have no rational basis for the extra leap to a worldwide flood.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Sure, and of course the fact that there is 10 times as much water as there is land above it means that there is not enough water to cover the land - because the land is ABOVE IT. As you say, there is a lot of land sticking out above the water - the water does not cover it. So there is obviously not enough water to cover the land. If there was enohgh water to cover the land there would be no land sticking out above it right?

The water got into the ocean somewhow. It fell from the sky first, then drained off into the oceans.

Is there evidence for that? Yes.

There are river channels running deep down into to ocean and there are fresh water rivers that are still running beneath the ocean. This is evidence that the water in the ocean has not always been there in its current volume.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
The water got into the ocean somewhow. It fell from the sky first, then drained off into the oceans.

Is there evidence for that? Yes.

Wow! Seriously? You are an adult and have never been taught about the water cycle? They teach that to 5 and 6 year olds.

The water evaporates from the ocean, rises into the atmosphere where it forms clouds and then rains. Thay rain runs back into the ocean and the cycle continues.

I am honestly amazed - you really did not know that? You actually believe that rain comes from space or something?

There are river channels running deep down into to ocean and there are fresh water rivers that are still running beneath the ocean. This is evidence that the water in the ocean has not always been there in its current volume.
Of course, during ice ages the water freezes and the sea level drops - how can you never have learnt this stuff? May I ask if you were home schooled?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
what if the mountain is 1 litre in volumn and the water covering it is 10 litres?

do you think the situation might be reversed then?

There is 10 times as much water in the ocean as there is land above it.

therefore its possible for all the earth to have been flooded.

The depth of water in my basin is ten times as much as the height from the water surface to the lid... therefore I have enough water to make the basin overflow.

:no:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Wow! Seriously? You are an adult and have never been taught about the water cycle? They teach that to 5 and 6 year olds.

The water evaporates from the ocean, rises into the atmosphere where it forms clouds and then rains. Thay rain runs back into the ocean and the cycle continues.

I am honestly amazed - you really did not know that? You actually believe that rain comes from space or something?

Of course, during ice ages the water freezes and the sea level drops - how can you never have learnt this stuff? May I ask if you were home schooled?


The water cycle... hmmm let me think about that for a while.

You mean the water falls from the sky? wow, that really is a new thought for me.


:D
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
The water cycle... hmmm let me think about that for a while.

You mean the water falls from the sky? wow, that really is a new thought for me.


:D

Wow!

You are as damning a testament on the evils of home schooling as I could imagine.

I can not believe any literate adult could fail to grasp the water cycle.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Wow!

You are as damning a testament on the evils of home schooling as I could imagine.

I can not believe any literate adult could fail to grasp the water cycle.

oh gee, you got me.

:)

Well one thing is for sure, Jesus believed in the Flood of Noahs day and he actually was home schooled. So I dont think there is anything wrong with home schooling for all those here who might have been. Some kids leave the public education system illiterate.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
oh gee, you got me.

:)

Well one thing is for sure, Jesus believed in the Flood of Noahs day and he actually was home schooled. So I dont think there is anything wrong with home schooling for all those here who might have been. Some kids leave the public education system illiterate.

Honestly mate, I'm amazed. You did not even know where rain comes from. Wow!
 

McBell

Unbound
Jesus believed in the Flood of Noahs day
Empty claim

and he actually was home schooled.
Another empty claim.


So I dont think there is anything wrong with home schooling for all those here who might have been.
A belief based on two empty claims?
Yeah, that holds lots of weight...

{yes, that was sarcasm}

Some kids leave the public education system illiterate.

How does this justify problems with home schooling?
 

kashmir

Well-Known Member
I think you may be failing to distinguish between mountain fossils and mountain fish remains. I've never heard "birds" posited as the cause of mountaintop ocean fossil deposits.

Yeah, sure, some birds eat fish and live in the mountains. I don't think it's a mystery at all though. It would be very easy for even a layman with a basic understanding of geology to determine whether they are looking at a patch of ancient ocean bed or at the fish bones around eagle's nest. (For one thing, the fish bones still reek to high heaven.)

The ice age didn't end all at once with one big sudden melting. There are still glaciers all over the world slowly shrinking. They have been shrinking ever since the ice age, and were once part of massive ice sheets that covered whole continents.

An ice sheet doesn't need to melt all at once to drop a boulder. Why would it?

Just out of curiosity, do you live in a place with freezing, snowy, icy winters? It sounds like you're not very familiar with the natural process of ice formation and dissipation. I am Canadian. I can help you out. :D

yes I know what ice and snow is, I live in ohio.
never less, people in warm climates have ice too, they put it in their drinks and OMG. it melts :D
Just funning.
But still the ice ages are somewhat of a mystery of scientists, its not completely known what actually happened millions of years ago.
Its fun to discuss the unknown and ponder about it, whats not fun, is those that act as if stuff is yesterdays news when even science themselves have conflicting positions.
Not saying you are, but some do and it gets old fast.
But seriously, do you actually believe any grown adults on here has no idea what ice and snow is? :facepalm:
 

kashmir

Well-Known Member
Wow, all i got to say is, apparently only a select few in this world know what water is..:facepalm:

I am so glad I joined up and can learn from others too.
Once we all understand what water does when it freezes, will we be moving onto what happens when it boils?
I hope so, cause I want to make chicken and rice homemade, and too scared if I do it wrong, the water will burn and blow up the whole neighborhood.

Can we just skip to boiling water 101 for now? :D

Oh yah, quick question, what the heck is that wet looking stuff that falls from the sky?
That loud noise and streaks of light is quite scary too.
Can it hurt me if I reach up and try to touch it? :sarcastic
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Wow, all i got to say is, apparently only a select few in this world know what rain snow and ice is..:facepalm:

I am so glad I joined up and can learn from others too.
Once we all understand what water does when it freezes, will we be moving onto what happens when it boils?
I hope so, cause I want to make chicken and rice homemade, and too scared if I do it wrong, the water will burn and blow up the whole neighborhood.

Can we just skip to boiling water 101 for now? :D

Oh yah, quick question, what the heck is that wet looking stuff that falls from the sky?
That loud noise and streaks of light is quite scary too.
Can it hurt me if I reach up and try to touch it? :sarcastic

Dude, your buddy just demonstrated that he doesn't know where rain comes from.
You showed us a photo of a rock moved by glaciers because you thought it must have floated there.

So we had to explain where rain comes from and that rocks sink.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Dude, your buddy just demonstrated that he doesn't know where rain comes from.
You showed us a photo of a rock moved by glaciers because you thought it must have floated there.

So we had to explain where rain comes from and that rocks sink.

He is a she thankyou very much.

:p
 

McBell

Unbound
Wow, all i got to say is, apparently only a select few in this world know what water is..:facepalm:

I am so glad I joined up and can learn from others too.
Once we all understand what water does when it freezes, will we be moving onto what happens when it boils?
I hope so, cause I want to make chicken and rice homemade, and too scared if I do it wrong, the water will burn and blow up the whole neighborhood.

Can we just skip to boiling water 101 for now? :D

Oh yah, quick question, what the heck is that wet looking stuff that falls from the sky?
That loud noise and streaks of light is quite scary too.
Can it hurt me if I reach up and try to touch it? :sarcastic

As I said in post #11:
please be so kind as to let the thread know when you are going to start "real debate"...​
 
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