world wide flood?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I provided a link that supports the thread concept, you have not provided anything but opinions and twice now, accuse me of what you are doing.
I am just trying to have a discussion and am adding data.
You have not yet to dismiss a word I said, other than opinions.

So far, you haven't even told us where that rock is from your photo.

not enough water in all the ice?
most of the ice melted which became our oceans.
Obviously there isn't enough ice now, it melted, there were several ice ages.
We have boulders all over the earth that had to be displaced by ice melting and dropping them off.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that if all the ice on the planet melted and was added to all the water on the planet, it wouldn't be enough to cover the whole surface of the Earth.

Here are more links, there are two sides of a coin here and many believe the earth was completely covered in ice, at least once.

Ice is not water.

No one actually knows for sure, so who is the one trying to have a discussion with added data and who is trying to be a know it all with no supporting data?
You accuse me of not being rational, you are the one not being rational.
basically all you said was "I am right and you are wrong" with nothing to support your position.

I have a degree in civil engineering that included several courses in geology and geotechnical engineering. If you want me to dig up links that say the same things that I learned in school I can, but I know what I'm talking about here.

You know, if you were here with me, I could take you outside, lead you through the tests that demonstrate that many of the soil regions in the Great Lakes region of North America have been undisturbed (e.g. by a global flood that lasts an entire year) since they were under glaciers during the last Ice Age... and it's all based on the same sound, tested science that lets us design proper building foundations.

Do you think this global flood you're suggesting was before or after the last Ice Age?

 

[Alceste]

And this might be semantics as well. Either way we are dealing with variation in how much land is covered by water.

Are we? I'm not sure you understand how tectonic plates work and how mountains are formed. The fact that a particular piece of mountain used to be a piece of sea bed and then got pushed up by tectonic plate movement doesn't necessarily make any difference to the amount of land that is covered by water. At the time that piece of mountain was a piece of sea bed, there were other mountains just as high or higher. Old mountain ranges erode over millions of years, and new ones are born. Coastlines are always changing, but the total volume of water on the earth always remains the same. It is not and never has been enough to cover the entire surface of the earth.

When it comes to glaciers melting, they do contribute to a rise of sea level. But we're only talking about a few metres, and that's after all the glaciers and ice caps we currently have left over from the last ice age are completely gone. All that ice melt at the end of the last ice age gave us the coastal landscape we see right now, today, and it's still melting. It never gave us a global flood that left only one single mountain peak on the entire planet exposed. It just gave us a couple thousand years of reliable drinking water, which is soon to be exhausted.

The only way the whole earth could be underwater at the time of Noah (whenever that was) is if the whole earth was completely flat at the time. No variations in geologic elevation anywhere. Only then could the volume of water on earth cover all the land. But you know it ain't so, because they mention mountains, lakes, oceans, hills, rivers etc. in the Bible. Not just one or two, but lots. And they had to have fresh water to survive. Without major differences in geologic elevation, they would have had none.

I can't believe I have to explain any of this to adults who have completed a grade school education.

Why don't you just go with kashmir's explanation? God poofed a lot of extra water into existence and then poofed it away when his wrath was exhausted. That literally makes a thousand times more sense than trying to cram the flood story into what we know to be true about geology, paleontology and oceanography.

 

[Desert Snake]

I can't believe I have to explain any of this to adults who have completed a grade school education.

You don't.:beach:

 

[Alceste]

So far, you haven't even told us where that rock is from your photo.

It's the Madison Boulder in New Hampshire. The ironic thing is, the file name is "erratic madison boulder". Easiest sleuthing I ever did. I am rather pleased with myself to have correctly identified it as a glacial erratic on sight.

Madison Boulder Natural Area | New Hampshire State Parks

"In 1970 Madison Boulder was designated a National Natural Landmark by the U.S. Department of the Interior because the enormous erratic, "is an outstanding illustration of the power of an ice sheet to pluck out very large blocks of fractured bedrock and move them substantial distances.""

 

[Alceste]

Headache inducing post-sleuth comment - the image comes from this website:

The Age of the Earth

Don't look at it if you disliked the gaudy product of artless individuals learning HTML in about 1995.

 

[Pegg]

And what, pray tell, are the special common features between these flood stories that suggest they were the same flood and not separate regional floods?

This list is taken from the Watchtower publication 'Insight on the Scriptures' Volume

Samples from six continents and the islands of the sea; hundreds of such legends are known

Australia - Kurnai
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Babylon - Berossus’ account
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Babylon - Gilgamesh epic
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Bolivia - Chiriguano
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
Borneo - Sea Dayak
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Burma - Singpho
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Canada - Cree
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Canada - Montagnais
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

China - Lolo
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Cuba - original natives
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

East Africa - Masai
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Egypt - Book of the Dead
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Fiji - Walavu-levu tradition
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

French Polynesia - Raïatéa
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared

Greece - Lucian’s account
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Guyana - Macushi
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Iceland - Eddas
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

India - Andaman Islands
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

India - Bhil
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

India - Kamar
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Iran - Zend-Avesta
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Italy - Ovid’s poetry
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Malay Peninsula - Jakun
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Mexico - Codex Chimalpopoca
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
Mexico - Huichol
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

New Zealand - Maori
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Peru - Indians of Huarochirí
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared

Russia - Vogul
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Alaska) - Kolusches
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Alaska) - Tlingit
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Arizona) - Papago
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Hawaii) - legend of Nu-u
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
Vanuatu - Melanesians
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Vietnam - Bahnar
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Wales - Dwyfan/Dwyfach legend
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Also, what do you make of the folk stories that suggest that a society didn't migrate to where they are now (not within their cultural memory, anyhow)... stories of their ancestors growing out of the ground in the area where the society is now and such?

stories of ancestors 'growing out of the ground', really?

Well, we know thats not how humans come into existence, so i think we can safely conclude that is some kind of 'myth' which does not at all fit in the bounds of reality.

 

[Alceste]

This list is taken from the Watchtower publication 'Insight on the Scriptures' Volume




stories of ancestors 'growing out of the ground', really?

Well, we know thats not how humans come into existence, so i think we can safely conclude that is some kind of 'myth' which does not at all fit in the bounds of reality.

I had this funny feeling that you have never personally looked any of these stories up yourself to verify whether the similarities Watchtower claims actually exist. So I picked one, completely at random, and fact checked it.

Kurnai (Gippsland, Victoria): Long ago, a great flood covered the country. All drowned except a man and two or three women who took refuge on a mud island near Port Albert. Pelican came by in his canoe and went to help them. He fell in love with one of the women. He ferried the others to the mainland, but left her for last. Afraid of being alone with him, the woman dressed a log in her opossum rug so it looked like her, left it by the fire, and swam to the mainland. The pelican returned and flew into a passion when the log dressed as a woman wouldn't answer him. He kicked it, which only hurt his foot and made him angrier. He began to paint himself white so that he might fight the woman's husband. Another pelican came up when he was halfway through with these preparations, but not knowing what to make of the strange half black and half white creature, pecked him and killed him. That is why pelicans are now black and white. [Dixon, pp. 279-280; Gaster, pp. 113-114]

I don't know about you, but I'm finding it really, really hard to see any similarities to Noah's Ark in that story, apart from the fact that there's a flood involved (a very small one that allows people to walk to an island and canoe or swim from there to "the mainland").

It's things like this that make the most of us consider the Watchtower to be worse than useless as a source of factual information.

 

[Pegg]

I had this funny feeling that you have never personally looked any of these stories up yourself to verify whether the similarities Watchtower claims actually exist. So I picked one, completely at random, and fact checked it.



I don't know about you, but I'm finding it really, really hard to see any similarities to Noah's Ark in that story, apart from the fact that there's a flood involved (a very small one that allows people to walk to an island and canoe or swim from there to "the mainland").

It's things like this that make the most of us consider the Watchtower to be worse than useless as a source of factual information.

the australian aboriginals tell their stories, known as 'dream-time', by means of the animals and landscape. The story of a great flood is one of them. You might be better off reading about that particular story from the aboriginals

 

[Alceste]

the australian aboriginals tell their stories, known as 'dream-time', by means of the animals and landscape. The story of a great flood is one of them. You might be better off reading about that particular story from the aboriginals

It still bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the story of Noah's Ark. And your version of the story is pretty much the same as the excerpt I provided, except that my excerpt was brief and didn't refer to the woman who "swam to the mainland" as his wife.

Pegg, you know that floods happen all over the world from many different causes, but they happen one at a time, right? Is it so hard to understand how many different cultures might come up with stories that involved a flood?

Here's a flood story from Japan -

Japanese fisherman survived tsunami by driving boat into wave | Raw Replay

Japan:
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

 

[Bunyip]

one particular line of evidence that i think is intriguing is the fact that in all cultures there is a very similar flood legend. The characters change somewhat, but the circumstances are almost always the same.

What could have motivated so many diverse and geographically alienated people from telling the same story?

Sorry, but I thought that was a complefe no brainer.

Why do cultures across the world all have flood stories?

A: Because flooding has effected cultures all across the world. Floods are commonplace.

So itis the same reason that cultures all across the world have legends of Winter.

 

[Pegg]

Sorry, but I thought that was a complefe no brainer.

Why do cultures across the world all have flood stories?

A: Because flooding has effected cultures all across the world. Floods are commonplace.

So itis the same reason that cultures all across the world have legends of Winter.

legends dont come from recent events...they come from being retold over thousands of years.

The fact that we find such legends in completely unrelated people are evidence of relationship. And that relationship goes back a very long way.

 

[Bunyip]

This list is taken from the Watchtower publication 'Insight on the Scriptures' Volume




stories of ancestors 'growing out of the ground', really?

Well, we know thats not how humans come into existence, so i think we can safely conclude that is some kind of 'myth' which does not at all fit in the bounds of reality.

Yes mate. Floods, like winters, summers, storms, etc happen to allmost all cultures all over the world.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

legends dont come from recent events...they come from being retold over thousands of years.

Which they were, obviously.

The fact that we find such legends in completely unrelated people are evidence of relationship. And that relationship goes back a very long way.

Yes. The relationship is that people witness flooding and that stories are prone to exaggeration by repeated telling.

 

[Bunyip]

legends dont come from recent events...they come from being retold over thousands of years.

The fact that we find such legends in completely unrelated people are evidence of relationship. And that relationship goes back a very long way.

Erm.....Yes mate. Floods happened all over the world thousands of years ago as well.

 

[Pegg]

Which they were, obviously.

Yes. The relationship is that people witness flooding and that stories are prone to exaggeration by repeated telling.

well thats one possibility, the other possibility is that these people were connected to those of the past and have been retelling the same story over and over.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

well thats one possibility, the other possibility is that these people were connected to those of the past and have been retelling the same story over and over.

And how often has that been true?

 

[Bunyip]

well thats one possibility, the other possibility is that these people were connected to those of the past and have been retelling the same story over and over.

Sure, but that possibility is infinitely less plausible that the simple truth that flooding events are a common global phenomenon.

 

[Alceste]

well thats one possibility, the other possibility is that these people were connected to those of the past and have been retelling the same story over and over.

No, that's not a possibility, because the stories have absolutely nothing in common with one another except that somebody, somewhere manages to survive a flood.

Is it completely inconceivable to you that several people since the dawn of time have managed to survive a flood?

 

[Pegg]

And how often has that been true?

I would say a 'world wide' flood would have only been true once.

Considering there is about 1.4 billion cu km of water on the earth covering more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface and the average depth of the oceans is 4 km while the average elevation of the land is only 0.8 km above sea level, i think there is plenty of evidence that the entire earth has been flooded at least once.

 

[Bunyip]

I would say a 'world wide' flood would have only been true once.

Considering there is about 1.4 billion cu km of water on the earth covering more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface and the average depth of the oceans is 4 km while the average elevation of the land is only 0.8 km above sea level, i think there is plenty of evidence that the entire earth has been flooded at least once.

Your math is bad, that is nowhere near enough water. At the average height above sea level you would he covering half of the land right? Not all of it.