It is not an argument against God it is a deductive point that Christians have to accept, that is fine by me if they wish to do so.
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Would a good god allow the Coronavirus?
- Thread starter Rawshak
- Start date
Oh I agree with you. Beyond human comprehension is nothing but an excuse
My argument for this thread was in response to asking whether God is morally just for allowing the Coronavirus crisis to happen. In the eyes of God, what is 5 million humans when our place in the universe is less than a speck?
In other words, would God care about 5 million humans lives over his entire grand scheme? I'd think not.
LactoseIntolerant
Member
I think the correct question is "Why should a Just God intervene on you behalf?" Your premise is that all are worthy of intervention.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Which only goes to show also that within "God's plan" He need not be concerned with any of us... and given that perspective on things, why would one ever even fathom to "adore" or "worship" this indifferent thing? "The Plan" is most assuredly more important than our individual lives, or even our collective lives.
I can tell you one thing as a father... acting in that way - that is, to the benefit of some abstract "plan" to the indifferent neglect (or even direct harm) of your children - would probably be grounds in our modern societies for involving the equivalent of "Child Protective Services."
Can you say, why make a special case of corona virus, that is not even the most common reason for death and when most people die anyway, especially when they are over 80?
For example, in Finland the average age to die to Corona has been 82. Do you really expect people to live forever? Why should God allow all to live forever?
In Biblical point of view only righteous people will have eternal life. I think that is good. I believe all have that chance, but not all want to be righteous.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
God holding more value over the grand scheme =/= God not caring about us at all. We are, after all, part of the picture. Whatever happens to us was intended to happen to us, that's what the picture entails. If I were to say that humanity as a whole is more important than us on an individual level, would that mean that I'm saying humans on an individual level are unimportant?
And honestly, that's just wording I'm using to put things into perspective, God cares about all scales of his artwork equally. In order to do so, some scales will find their treatment unfair, when really everything that happens is necessary for whatever it is that God has planned. -- Even if God's plan is the heat death of the universe and perpetual oblivion, who are we to say that is bad? Morality is in the eye of the beholder.
We are so microscopic it is not fair to compare it on the scale of father and child. I would say our place in God's eyes is more like an individual letter to a novelist. That's not an exact comparison, because God is the greatest perfectionist and every detail to his artwork is important, whereas a novelist wouldn't be hurt over a typo.
How we feel about how the world is to us is simply our emotions. If natural events led the human species to a slow, painful extinction then we may start to think God is a psychopath, or that God hates us, or that God at least doesn't care about us. But, if that were to happen, our place and purpose in spacetime has been fulfilled regardless of how unfair it seems to us.
Tony, you can catch a virus from an animal you're being nice to, as well. You don't have to be aiming to kill and eat it.
You can indeed, but if one practices the correct hygiene while doing that, then the risk is greatly reduced.
Same as doing something as simple as gardening, there is a lot of nasty things in that soil, but the balance needs to be tipped, wear the right gear, keep soil out of open wounds, do not breathe the dust and the risks are lowered.
Regards Tony
stvdv
Veteran Member
God is Great
Humans misbehave thereby "creating" need for viruses
Sadly blaming God for it
Hence
Question: Would a good human do such a thing?
If that’s the case, only bad people would be dying from it!
I did not.
It would depend on the basis of your beliefs.
If, as I hold to, man has free will and God gave man the authority on this earth, then God wouldn't be responsible for China releasing the virus.
It would be man supervising this and, ultimately, man who is responsible.
I think the other side of the coin is just victim mentality and one playing the blame game... as depicted with Adam saying "It's my wife's fault", or the wife, "It's the devil's fault" instead of owning up to ones responsibilities.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
But this means that, ultimately, our individual feelings, cares, desires, etc. CAN'T MATTER. They simply can't because all they are is the next part of the script unfolding, and there is no way to break out of it, and all feelings and ideas are just basically what God designed to have happen, and even if you don't like that idea one bit, God doesn't care about that. He can't care about that. So yes... He doesn't care, and He can't care, because He already knows exactly how it is going to play out, already scripted it, and therefore will take ZERO CONSIDERATION for anyone's displeasure with or torment over anything into account. He literally CAN'T if things are going to go "according to plan" no matter what. He can't care about anything that happens along the way enough to intervene... because "the plan." It's asinine.
To any given individual, yes - you would say "you don't matter" when held up against "all of humanity." And so given that context, you don't care about individuals. In other words, you care about individuals when it suits you, and you don't care about them when it doesn't.
I say there is no such distinction that can be made. Would I, personally, as a human being like to see a greater portion of humanity survive versus one person - yes, yes I would. But this would be for pragmatic reasons - since one person can't procreate. However, if requested by the rest of humanity to sacrifice myself in order to save everyone else, I honestly can't say what I would do in that situation. My first impulse would be to tell them all to **** off, because their literally ASKING me to take on that burden is crap. I either volunteer or you can stuff it up your arse. And there you have another hint at why I think this "God's plan" business is crap. Him forcing a plan down our throats is literally Him asking us to sacrifice ourselves for whatever His ideas and ideals are. Not our own. And I can tell you what... if the stories are to be believed, God's ideas and ideals are FAR out of alignment with my own on plenty a score.
Unfortunately, this is you just saying some crap you think sounds nice at this point. You have absolutely no way of knowing this.
Uh... we are the arbiters of our own meager existence, that's what. I am given some level of control over this body and the material composing it... and I intend to use it. If you don't want me to have that control... don't give it to me. And if you don't like the judgments I make about the dumb things you do, then either don't do them, or don't give me the ability to judge.
Agreed... which is entirely why I can call what goofy humans say God is doing or has done "absolute-crap-on-a-stick-stupid." I can make that determination within the scope of my own thoughts... and there is literally nothing to stop me. Especially not shenanigans like "But God has a plan!"
Then why do so many theists do it ALL THE TIME? That's what I want to know. And I will tell you exactly how this works. The "father to child" analogy works JUST FINE when whatever is being discussed is a positive quality or aspect of God/relationship/etc... but as soon as the "father to child" analogy is posited in a negative light, then theists start saying "well, you can't compare our relationship to God with that of a father and child." That's hypocrisy, and it is just all too easy to see, and call out, and roll your eyes at. Goofballs the lot of you.
Hmm... I wonder why in the world they have editors then?
Ultimately, you can't know there is a "purpose in spacetime" that we are somehow meting out. I understand you like to view it that way... but that's all it is. You like it, so you do it. I don't care about this idea. Not one bit. There is no evidence that there is "a plan" or "a purpose." None. That's why there are so very very many ideas about what it might be, or where it may take us. Because everyone (you included, my friend) is just making this crap up as they go along. Influenced by people who had thoughts before them, of course, so it isn't even as noble as using your imagination. It's more like plagiarism with changes written in the margins.
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Not necessarily
Why not necessarily?
Well depending on your interpretation of various “wipe out” stories between the various religions, good people are sometimes collateral damage in such events. (Though it does depend on who you ask.)
Well, to me, a religion teaching a belief, certainly does not equate to God teaching it!
Never said it did. Only pointed out that that’s a common thread in religious stories