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Would an Abrahamic God deserve our forgiveness?

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
While I agree with you in theory, (i find it easy to play devils advocate :) ) it could be argued that either A. God did nothing to stop it, which is morally unacceptable in most cultures (Ie you witness someone being murdered and you could have stopped it but you didn't). or B. He created the realm of existence and therefore indirectly allowed such atrocities and horrors to be committed. Now in response, I understand a theist may simply say, (the common answer to evil and suffering) that we are endowed with free will. This however does not rest well with many, as God is considered omnipotent, omniscient, and all good, so why does he not change it? This is not even accounting for the horrors of the Old Testament apparently orchestrated by God. This is something that I and many others struggle with immensely, and I find weak arguments going either way, of what God should, shouldn't or should have done.

I am not going to debate the "God should have stopped it" type of debate. There are a lot of reasons I could give but any one of them would have a counter response and would probably end in a stalemate.
 

KrsnaDasa

Done posting here
On whatever level you want to look at it, most religions believe that the material world entails suffering and the realm of God is complete happiness. When Adam and even fell from Gods grace, they took the whole material world with them. Therefore, I guess God moved Heaven elsewhere and this became a world of suffering.

I think things like this are Gods way of showing us that this world is not our home, but that we belong with him and in His abode. I am not a follower of an abrahamic tradition, but I believe that would be the message. Though we may disagree with how God did it, who are we to judge?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The thing is God didn't cause the Holocaust, people did. People do simply dreadful things to each other.
Unlike the god of Abraham.
Gen 7:21-23 God killed / drowned all but 8 Human Beings and a boat-load of animals.

Gen 19:1-26 God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Gen 19:1-26 God killed Lot's wife, mother of 2 virgins, by turning her into a pillar of salt.

Gen 38:9-10 God killed Onan who refused to get his sister-in-law pregnant.

Ex 9:23-25 God killed every man that was outdoors with hail.

Ex 12:29 God killed all of Egypt's firstborn.

Ex 14:6-28 God drowned the Egyptian army.

Ex 21:7 God directed how to sell your daughter.

Ex 21:17 & Lev 20:9 God wants all those killed who curse their father and mother.

Ex 21:20-21 God condoned the killing of slaves.

Ex 22:18 God directed to kill witches.

Ex 22:20 God ordered to murder any who sacrificed to another God.

Ex 23:22-32 God said: Obey Me, do what I say, I will hate and murder your enemies.

Ex 31:15 God ordered: Who dares to work on the Sabbath day shall be murdered.

Ex 32:27-28 God had Moses to slay 3,000 of their own relatives.

Lev 10:1-2 God murdered two of Aaron's sons / priests by fire.

Lev 10:6 Bare your heads or tear your clothes and God will murder you.

Lev 15:31 Anyone unclean defiling Gods dwelling, God will murder.

Lev 20:9 God ordered: Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

Lev 20:10 God commands: If you commit adultery, you shall be put to death.

Lev 20:11 If a man has sex with his father's wife shall be put to death.

Lev 20:12 God ordered: If a man has sex with his daughter-in-law, murder them both.

Lev 20:13 God commands to murder gay men.

ETC.

ETC.

ETC.

Edited to add source
 
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TheMusicTheory

Lord of Diminished 5ths
"Would an Abrahamic God Deserve Our Forgiveness?"

No, to be quite honest.

The deity described by the bible (*particularly* in the Old Testament, but even the New isn't without references) is a bigot, a sexist, and absolutely a murderer...to say nothing of his vanity, ego-centrism and general lack of a moral center.

Here is a being that supposedly creates mankind, flaws and all, then somehow gets insulted when man acts *precisely the way he knew they would when he made them* and then uses that as an excuse to require us to be "forgiven" for character flaws he instilled in us in the first place.

In other words, we are punished for mistakes he knew we would make, and indeed designed us to make.

To top it off, his punishment runs even deeper by banishing anyone who doesn't believe in him to an eternity of burning pain and suffering. This is the mentality of a 4-year old. Anyone ever see that old Twilight Zone episode with the kid banishing people to the corn field for making him upset? Same deal except probably worse.

Then he attempts to hold everyone hostage emotionally by sending his "son" to "die" for our sins, claiming that this is the only way to forgive us (nevermind that he ostensibly created the universe and thus *makes the rules*...no, no, this is the ONLY way for some reason) and brow-beats us with this "sacrifice" over and over again. "Look what I did for you!" he says, "I sacrificed my son for you!". Never mind that this was no true sacrifice at all, since Jesus then apparently rose up and now is sitting pretty in heaven (and he was also god at the same time? Whatever, a wizard did it). So, what did this god actually sacrifice? He didn't get to see his kid for 3 days? Sounds terrible.

Suddenly the entrance requirement to his afterlife clubhouse changes though: Now you have to believe that his son died for you, and if you don't then prepare for eternal fire and the worst 3rd degree burns you've ever had, buddy!

The Abrahamic god is a rage machine. A jealous, homicidal maniac that displays all the winning traits of alcoholism, sociopathy and bi-polar disorder at the same time. One might think that impossible, but hey, with god, all things are possible, right?

Luckily, I don't believe that deity exists, so we don't have to worry about it.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
"If there is a god he will have to beg for my forgiveness." -quote found etched into the wall of a Nazi Concentration Camp

A peculiar quote which makes one reflect. If a God does exist in an omniscient, omnipresent ect ect manner, would this God deserve to forgiven for the act of creating a world in which such great suffering is wrought upon so many? Regardless of whether humanity causes this in a 'Fall' would he be justified in not only creating us, but then judging us for our actions in what some would deem as a hell?
Now this question I suppose goes back to one of the primary questions in human existence, is life worth living? Would it be better to live and suffer, or never to have lived, and never have existed in a state which could perceive any good or any bad? I myself am conflicted on this manner. Kahlil Gibran once said that pain hollows us out so that we may be filled, but wouldn't some people be hollowed out till there was nothing left and never filled with anything? Your thoughts?

Baha'I scriptures explains this World is like a school. Here we see unfairness so we can understand what fairness is. We see hate to understand what love is .... It is not possible to understand Light without darkness... So we are here to develope our understanding... When we go to the next life we need this education of this world. In the spiritual worlds of God we all understand the purpose of this earthly life and we say God is the best of Creators!
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Unlike the god of Abraham.
Gen 7:21-23 God killed / drowned all but 8 Human Beings and a boat-load of animals.

Gen 19:1-26 God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Gen 19:1-26 God killed Lot's wife, mother of 2 virgins, by turning her into a pillar of salt.

Gen 38:9-10 God killed Onan who refused to get his sister-in-law pregnant.

Ex 9:23-25 God killed every man that was outdoors with hail.

Ex 12:29 God killed all of Egypt's firstborn.

Ex 14:6-28 God drowned the Egyptian army.

Ex 21:7 God directed how to sell your daughter.

Ex 21:17 & Lev 20:9 God wants all those killed who curse their father and mother.

Ex 21:20-21 God condoned the killing of slaves.

Ex 22:18 God directed to kill witches.

Ex 22:20 God ordered to murder any who sacrificed to another God.

Ex 23:22-32 God said: Obey Me, do what I say, I will hate and murder your enemies.

Ex 31:15 God ordered: Who dares to work on the Sabbath day shall be murdered.

Ex 32:27-28 God had Moses to slay 3,000 of their own relatives.

Lev 10:1-2 God murdered two of Aaron's sons / priests by fire.

Lev 10:6 Bare your heads or tear your clothes and God will murder you.

Lev 15:31 Anyone unclean defiling Gods dwelling, God will murder.

Lev 20:9 God ordered: Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

Lev 20:10 God commands: If you commit adultery, you shall be put to death.

Lev 20:11 If a man has sex with his father's wife shall be put to death.

Lev 20:12 God ordered: If a man has sex with his daughter-in-law, murder them both.

Lev 20:13 God commands to murder gay men.

ETC.

ETC.

ETC.


That's a whole lotta murderin' goin' on. It's very surprising no Christian on RF has addressed your post. Is all of that really in the Bible?
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3470733 said:
That's a whole lotta murderin' goin' on. It's very surprising no Christian on RF has addressed your post. Is all of that really in the Bible?

There is no reason to address it. If I were to address it, I wouldn't be defending God, I would be defending myself and other Christians. God doesn't need me to defend Him and I see no reason to defend myself. If you don't like what my scriptures say, then so be it. Don't follow the faith, no one is forcing you to. Just give us the same courtesy as we give you.

That is all.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3470733 said:
That's a whole lotta murderin' goin' on. It's very surprising no Christian on RF has addressed your post. Is all of that really in the Bible?
I believe it is. Because I've seen lists like this before I have no reason to doubt it, which is why I didn't check out each one, but assumed they're correct.

OOps :eek: I forgot to included a source link.mea culpa . Anyway, this is where I got it from.
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I believe it is. Because I've seen lists like this before I have no reason to doubt it, which is why I didn't check out each one, but assumed they're correct.

OOps :eek: I forgot to included a source link.mea culpa . Anyway, this is where I got it from.

There are some things you guys didn't think of: 1. We Christians read the Bible and we know the stories included in the various books. 2. A lot of us study the meanings of these stories. 3. Our viewpoint is not going to be the same as yours.
:)
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
If you don't like what my scriptures say, then so be it. Don't follow the faith, no one is forcing you to. Just give us the same courtesy as we give you.
That is all.

Woah there, gurlfrennnn. Hold your horses. I wasn't being rude or trying to pick a fight, homie.

I believe it is. Because I've seen lists like this before I have no reason to doubt it, which is why I didn't check out each one, but assumed they're correct.

OOps :eek: I forgot to included a source link.mea culpa . Anyway, this is where I got it from.

Thanks for the link.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3470770 said:
Woah there, gurlfrennnn. Hold your horses. I wasn't being rude or trying to pick a fight, homie.



Thanks for the link.

No worries. I wasn't even a little upset. And even though I responded to your post, I wasn't really talking to you. I guess I am just a little tired of all this criticism of my faith- there seems to be an onslaught of it lately.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
There is no reason to address it. If I were to address it, I wouldn't be defending God, I would be defending myself and other Christians. God doesn't need me to defend Him and I see no reason to defend myself. If you don't like what my scriptures say, then so be it. Don't follow the faith, no one is forcing you to.
God's behavior a sore spot? If so, I can't blame you.

Just give us the same courtesy as we give you.
"US"? you mean all the USes that threaten everyone they'll burn Hell unless they get right with Jesus? Or the USes that attempt to insinuate their religious beliefs into secular institutions? Or the special religious interests USes that attempt to coerce congress into abiding by their wishes? That "same courtesy"? Well, we probably would were it not for our ethics. :shrug:
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
I guess I am just a little tired of all this criticism of my faith- there seems to be an onslaught of it lately.

That onslaught happens to all faiths, even Jainism (the only religion in history with no violent track-record by its members) isn't left alone.

It's something that, in this day and age, should be expected, especially with the Internet Age making information of all backgrounds readily available.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
God's behavior a sore spot? If so, I can't blame you.

"US"? you mean all the USes that threaten everyone they'll burn Hell unless they get right with Jesus? Or the USes that attempt to insinuate their religious beliefs into secular institutions? Or the special religious interests USes that attempt to coerce congress into abiding by their wishes? That "same courtesy"? Well, we probably would were it not for our ethics. :shrug:

What??? When did I ever tell anyone they were going to hell? When did I ever proselytize to someone who didn't want it? I never have. And God isn't a sore spot with me. I don't judge God by human standards.

I have very hard time believing that every single Christian you have met has condemned you to hell. And I also have a very hard time believing that every single Christian is going to Washington to coerce all our elected officials.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3470778 said:
That onslaught happens to all faiths, even Jainism (the only religion in history with no violent track-record by its members) isn't left alone.

It's something that, in this day and age, should be expected, especially with the Internet Age making information of all backgrounds readily available.

To be sure. Just because I expect it doesn't mean that I don't get a little irritated with all the misconceptions of my faith or with any other faith, including yours. I've heard other faiths say the same thing I am saying- that they are tired of misconceptions, and almost every religion or faith has said so. I guess the most irritating thing would be someone who keeps stating the same misconceptions after others have informed the person that what he/she said is a misconception- I think you can sympathize, as I am sure that has happened to you and all people at one time or another.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
To be sure. Just because I expect it doesn't mean that I don't get a little irritated with all the misconceptions of my faith or with any other faith, including yours. I've heard other faiths say the same thing I am saying- that they are tired of misconceptions, and almost every religion or faith has said so. I guess the most irritating thing would be someone who keeps stating the same misconceptions after others have informed the person that what he/she said is a misconception- I think you can sympathize, as I am sure that has happened to you and all people at one time or another.

I was sympathizing with you when I said it is to be "expected". It's the duty of the adherents, myself included, to set the matter straight. Ironically, for Hindus, though, the misconceptions have usually been coming from within at more frequent rates than from outside. Nonetheless, I understand and sympathize with your point. Either way, I prefer Christ over Christianity any day similar to how many prefer Lord Shri Krishna over a conglomerated Hinduism.
 
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