Would any Muslim like to have a one-on-one debate about the trinity?

[Shermana]

i noticed the Nazarene, when i saw it i thought Jesus of Nazareth like the christians say i realized a similarity but didn't know you believed in him.

since you mention that, what scripture does your faith follow and can you quote something from it that speaks about Jesus being an incarnation of the highest angel. i'd like to know a bit more about this belief, first time i hear about it. should i make a thread in the DIR and ask the question there or do you want to answer here?

Might be best for you to make a DIR thread so we don't get too off subject, even though its relevant to the OP. But for the record, my "faith" is not really an organized structured one that has a strict set of scripture, I reject (as do many others) the writings of Paul while accepting the Apocrypha (which includes Wisdom of Solomon, which discusses the Logos/"Wisdom" being the First Creating Being,) and various NT Apocrypha like the Gospel of Philip, which some term "Gnostic", though the word "Gnostic' is very broad and is used for both early Jewish Christianity and Pagan Neo-Platonic despite those two camps being bitterly opposed. This can be discussed in more detail on the thread.

 

[Gharib]

Might be best for you to make a DIR thread so we don't get too off subject, even though its relevant to the OP. But for the record, my "faith" is not really an organized structured one that has a strict set of scripture, I reject (as do many others) the writings of Paul while accepting the Apocrypha (which includes Wisdom of Solomon, which discusses the Logos/"Wisdom" being the First Creating Being,) and various NT Apocrypha like the Gospel of Philip, which some term "Gnostic", though the word "Gnostic' is very broad and is used for both early Jewish Christianity and Pagan Neo-Platonic despite those two camps being bitterly opposed. This can be discussed in more detail on the thread.

thanks for the info, i will make a thread in the DIR

 

[payak]

jesus sent his son to die for mans sins, why.
Being all knowing he must have forseen that man would sin.
why not just appear himself, that would save having to rely on blind faith.

 

[Daviso452]

jesus sent his son to die for mans sins, why.
Being all knowing he must have forseen that man would sin.
why not just appear himself, that would save having to rely on blind faith.

Thus is ONE reason why I am an atheist.

 

[Gharib]

Thus is ONE reason why I am an atheist.

whats another?

islam doesn't say that about Jesus, nor does Judaism nor does any other faith other than christianity? is that really ONE reason why you are an atheist?

 

[elmarna]

Good question eselam!

 

[Faith division]

I've noticed, and no offensive, that some Muslims seem to have very little
Hi foreverfaithfull
First of all i like ur nickname and i pray u 'll be really faithfull and forever,
I want to participate just to show what's the problem with trinity!
Friendly peacefully:slapisscusion, without debate or insult or misrespect to any faith
We just want to see the truth in front ok
Ps:disbelivers in Quran are not called disbelivers,nor atheist, nor.....
They are called cofar (in arabic the word cofer means cover )
They know in the bottom of their heart the truth ,but they deny it.
I just ask you foreverfaithfull if you see the truth clear in front of you dont blind your heart with your own hands ok!:angel2eal!

 

[kevlar]

Hey faith, what about allah putting covers on peoples ears and eyes, to stop them believing.

 

[elmarna]

If I was here to consider the "truths" I would not likely have a easy time since it is not a trinity I turn to that I could place it.
This is a thread to debate "beliefs."
At least that is what I thought!
Perhaps faith devision sees it differently than me!

 

[Faith division]

I've noticed, and no offensive, that some Muslims seem to have very little understanding of proper Christian doctirnes, one of these being the Trinity, I'd love to hear someone else view, or debate them in the one-on-one debate

The Trinity is not Biblical,.
The word Trinity is not even in the Bible,or Biblical dictionnaries.
it was never taught bu Jesus and was never mentionned by him.
Ther is no basis or proof in the Bible whatsoever for the acceptance of the Trinity!!!!
If you say but its mentionned in Matthew
In Matthew28:19(....baptizing them in the name of the father,and of the son ,and of the holly spirit....)
This is not a proof ,if you mention three persons are sitting or eatting together,does it mean that they are forming one person?.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

The Trinity is not Biblical,.
The word Trinity is not even in the Bible,or Biblical dictionnaries.
it was never taught bu Jesus and was never mentionned by him.
Ther is no basis or proof in the Bible whatsoever for the acceptance of the Trinity!!!!
If you say but its mentionned in Matthew
In Matthew28:19(....baptizing them in the name of the father,and of the son ,and of the holly spirit....)
This is not a proof ,if you mention three persons are sitting or eatting together,does it mean that they are forming one person?.

Your right in saying the word Trinity is not there, but nethier is amilleniualism, premilleniualism or postmilleniualism , there is a second comming mentioned and a 1000 year period so we draw from that in our theology

Like wise when Christ says "Before Abraham, Iam !" John 8:58 we draw that he is saying he is Jehovah, God of Israel, in the next verse it's clear the Jews understood this claim as they attempt to stone him for making such an outrageous claim, that is where Christians get the doctirne of the Trinity, on top of other verses like John 1:1 "... the Word was God"

 

[ForeverFaithful]

jesus sent his son to die for mans sins, why.
Being all knowing he must have forseen that man would sin.
why not just appear himself, that would save having to rely on blind faith.

People saw Jesus in person and rejected Him, would a second appearance make any difference

When John the Baptist asked are you the one Christ replied
Matthew 11:5
The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor

If you want proof, attend an AA meeting

God create man knowing some would choose sin, but he provided a way for all men to be saved through Christ, not for his own sake, Not that he need men to serve him (Act 17:25) but that man may enjoy Him in heavenly Jerusalem, or face death.

 

[Faith division]

Your right in saying the word Trinity is not there, but nethier is amilleniualism, premilleniualism or postmilleniualism , there is a second comming mentioned and a 1000 year period so we draw from that in our theology

Like wise when Christ says "Before Abraham, Iam !" John 8:58 we draw that he is saying he is Jehovah, God of Israel, in the next verse it's clear the Jews .............."

the formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicaea in AD 325,i e .more than three centuries after Jesus had left.no doubt Roman paganism had influence in this doctrine, the triune god ,sabbath was shifted to sunday,decenber 25, which was the birthday of their sun-god Mirtha,was introduced as Jesus birthday ,although the Bible clearly predicted and forbade the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5

 

[Shermana]

Your right in saying the word Trinity is not there, but nethier is amilleniualism, premilleniualism or postmilleniualism , there is a second comming mentioned and a 1000 year period so we draw from that in our theology

Like wise when Christ says "Before Abraham, Iam !" John 8:58 we draw that he is saying he is Jehovah, God of Israel, in the next verse it's clear the Jews understood this claim as they attempt to stone him for making such an outrageous claim, that is where Christians get the doctirne of the Trinity, on top of other verses like John 1:1 "... the Word was God"

First off, as mentioned several times on other threads, the name itself is "I shall be", future tense. Also, many prominent Trinitarian translators have it as "I have been" for John 8:58 such as Professor Moffatt of Oxford and Professor Goodspeed. And furthermore, John 1:1's anarthrous Theos should be read as "and a god was the word", like in Acts 12:22 "voice of a god". As for the blasphemy charge, there are many kinds of "blasphemy" which one could be stoned for. The charge in 10:33 should also be read as "You a mere man, make yourself out to be a god". This has been thoroughly discussed in other threads, but I will rehash the arguments here if challenged or requested.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

the formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicaea in AD 325,i e .more than three centuries after Jesus had left.no doubt Roman paganism had influence in this doctrine, the triune god ,sabbath was shifted to sunday,decenber 25, which was the birthday of their sun-god Mirtha,was introduced as Jesus birthday ,although the Bible clearly predicted and forbade the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5

Actually we have plenty of evidence from the Bible that the first cenutry Christians believed in the Trinity, as it was what Jesus preached

the other issues have little to do with Christ divinity, however Christians shouldn't keep days in any legalistic way (Rom 14:5) so which day we should rest on is unimportant, Sunday was also the day of the Resurrection, most of the sightings of the Ressurected Jesus and Pentecost,

December 25th is only the Western celebration of Jesus' birth but it was placed there mostly because winter is harsh time of year as far as weather and food supply, so a feast serves the purpose of raising peoples spirits and giving them enough fat to survive the winter

If you pay attention to Jeremiah he is speaking of idols, the Verse in context is referring to things that dismay the gentiles, including Astrology and Idols, in the description Jeremiah describes something made of wood that is fastened by a work man, Christmas trees are not like such, it also says it is fastened with nails and hammers, something likely refering to the crafting of an idol, Jeremiah also speaks of how it can not speak, do evil or do good, in contrast to the One True God, who can do all these things, leading us to believe he is speaking of idols such as Zeus and Hades

 

[ForeverFaithful]

First off, as mentioned several times on other threads, the name itself is "I shall be", future tense. Also, many prominent Trinitarian translators have it as "I have been" for John 8:58 such as Professor Moffatt of Oxford and Professor Goodspeed. And furthermore, John 1:1's anarthrous Theos should be read as "and a god was the word", like in Acts 12:22 "voice of a god". As for the blasphemy charge, there are many kinds of "blasphemy" which one could be stoned for. The charge in 10:33 should also be read as "You a mere man, make yourself out to be a god". This has been thoroughly discussed in other threads, but I will rehash the arguments here if challenged or requested.

What is written in John 8:58 is the same name that is used in the Greek OT to refer to God, therefore the first century Christians would have understood it as meaning Christ said He was God, He often referred to the Father and Himself as being One, to argue that John did not strongly believe Jesus was God, I'd need so serious evidence

 

[payak]

People saw Jesus in person and rejected Him, would a second appearance make any difference

When John the Baptist asked are you the one Christ replied
Matthew 11:5
The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor

If you want proof, attend an AA meeting

God create man knowing some would choose sin, but he provided a way for all men to be saved through Christ, not for his own sake, Not that he need men to serve him (Act 17:25) but that man may enjoy Him in heavenly Jerusalem, or face death.

so god will appear at this AA meeting, wow, I should take up drinking and i shall find god.
I believe there is some being out there with great power, he is a part of the natural order of things like all beings just a different species.

he is wise and powerful but i have know evidence that he spoke to randomly selected people years ago and for some reason he suddenly stopped to do so, or chose to be an author rather then simply coming down to converse.

 

[Shermana]

What is written in John 8:58 is the same name that is used in the Greek OT to refer to God, therefore the first century Christians would have understood it as meaning Christ said He was God, He often referred to the Father and Himself as being One, to argue that John did not strongly believe Jesus was God, I'd need so serious evidence

The Greek of Exodus 3:14 is not consistent in the Septuagints. Theodotion and Aquila used "I will be" instead. The Sinaiticus's Greek does not match the older records there.



I've already explained the referring to the Father and him as one on several other threads. Read John 17:21. "Let them be one as we are one".


http://www.gospelanswers1.com/GospelTruthAboutJohn858.php

Even today you will find that Jewish literature, including the works of Reformed and Liberal Jewish Rabbis, will follow the post Septuagint/New Testament work of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion and render Exodus 3:14 either as “I will be what I will be,” or will simply transliterate the Hebrew into the main text and put as a footnote “Others, ‘I am who I am.’”

So we have records of 3 pre-Nicean Septuagints that say "I will be" and one post Septuagint non-Jewish Septuagint that says "I am".

But we cannot blindly accept this post Septuagint/New Testament future tense rendering of Exodus 3:14 as the most correct or accurate because there is obviously a counter-missionary agenda involved in the translation. It is not an effort to translate the literal meaning of the Hebrew text. This historical problem has not been given the attention that it deserves, but we must realize that it cannot be ignored or easily dismissed.

Ah, we cannot blindly believe the older (Jewish) versions of the Septuagint over the post-Trinity era Sintaicius because its from an obviously "Counter-missionary" position. I guess that's the only reason isn't it.

This line from that site is great:

Now if the Septuagint translators had also translated using the future tense at Exodus 3:14, then those who would argue that Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 have no connection would have a more solid argument. But since we know that the Septuagint and John both use the present tense

Wait a second...we cannot blindly accept that we know it was "I will be", but we KNOW that it's in the present tense in the "Seputagint". Wait. How does this logic work? How do we KNOW that John used in the past tense instead of "I have been" as Trinitarian scholars Goodspeed and Moffatt did. Such blatant hypocrisy in 2 paragraphs.

 

[Faith division]

so god will appear at this AA meeting, wow, I should take up drinking and i shall find god.
I believe there is some being out there with great power, he is a part of the natural order of things like all beings just a different species.

he is wise and powerful but i have know evidence that he spoke to randomly selected people years ago and for some reason he suddenly stopped to do so, or chose to be an author rather then simply coming down to converse.

When you speak of God worshiped by muslims,christians and jews plz try to use some politess and respect, i know that is not of your personality and education to use politess but you can learn about "how to respect others sacred beliefs"??
you can use definitions from internet ,,!!
just as you do to launch your threads "copy , paste":clap

 

[Faith division]

I've noticed, and no offensive, that some Muslims seem to have very little understanding of proper Christian doctirnes, one of these being the Trinity, I'd love to hear someone else view, or debate them in the one-on-one debate

Hi foreverfaithful ,i want to go back:to the main subject trinity ok!!!
Trinity =The Father,The Son ,The holly spirit?

So lets talk about one part of Trinity,
What is The Holy Ghost?
the holy Spirit ,is The Holy Ghost , and He is considered as God.
Lets compare 2 verses : Matthew1:18 and Luke1:26-27 ok :sarcastic
mattew1:18. "now the birth of Jesus Christ was on the wise : when as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,before they came toghether , she was found with child of The Holy Ghost"
Luke 1:26-27 " and in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee , named Nazareth ,to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph , of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary"
So in the miraculous birth of Jesus, Mattew montioned The Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned The angel Gabriel!
What is the Holy Ghost then?
Answer :The Holy Gost is then the angel Gabriel:yes: