Would the world be better off without any religion?

[RestlessSoul]

Either "God" exists and permits horror and abuse, or it's just the laws of nature.

I'm better off not believing in monsters.

No, these are not the only two options. And in any case, have you not just labelled nature a monster?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A belief is what you think is true. Not what you think is true without evidence. If you have a belief, you have some reasons for believing that thing is true. No one can believe something to be true without being convinced for some reasons. No one can choose what they believe to be true.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

That there is more than one version of true. So I believe in true, because it apparently works. That is the pragmatic version. In practice it works differently for different accepts of the everyday world.

 

[AppieB]

Ahh, yes.It is an objective fact to you and a subjective fact to your girlfriend. Fun times.

Even now you don't get it.

Now I am going to die, because I have violated objective reality like drinking poison, because that is what I have objectively done here. And now i am dead.

Yeah, you confuse flawed between formally so and the norm of not being flawed. Those are not the same.

This is all gibberish to me.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Well it comes down to what you define as good evidence. I have not found any God argument that meets any good standard of evidence in my opinion. It has nothing to do with any prejudices I have. Is it better to know that a bus is not coming before you step into the street or is it better to believe without good evidence that a bus is not coming before stepping into the street? Having false beliefs can be dangerous and harmful to you and others.

You misunderstand. I was asking where is the evidence for your assertion that, were it not for religion, people would not hold beliefs which are unsupported by evidence?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Would the world and people be better off without any religion?

What would be better?
What would be worse?

Hard to say. We would have to experience that type of life first. Has religion been harmful? Definitely. Has religion been helpful? Definitely. There is good with the bad, just like everything else. We should just strive to eliminate the harmful views and spread the helpful views, no matter which religion it is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Either "God" exists and permits horror and abuse, or it's just the laws of nature.

I'm better off not believing in monsters.

Well, that God exists, is not the same as God permits horror and abuse. That is a more specific version of God and from existence doesn't follow the other. Nor that nature is natural, but not supernatural. There are more possibilities than those listed by you.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I dunno about better, but we wouldn't have all those crazy Evangelicals begging for luxury jets to do the Lord's work.

If their god wanted them to fly all over the world to convert people, he would have given them wings.

 

[Sand Dancer]

When it becomes a crutch, yes.

Hope gets people through horrible situations sometimes.

 

[Audie]

Well you know I don’t have a degree in Chinese history. But it’s not hard to notice the human rights abuses, invasion to Tibet, the secret police disappearing people, what they done in Hong Kong etc.

So changing the subject somrehow
gives credibility to your silly nonsense
about religion in China.

But you want to get into trading punches, criticism of China V Wonderful USA, prepare for a bloody nose.

 

[Audie]

If their god wanted them to fly all over the world to convert people, he would have given them wings.

Therescmerit in suffering, they say.

 

[firedragon]

Who's strawmanning who?
It's obvious you're not being an honest interlocutor.

k.

 

[firedragon]

If someone is blind is it better to believe without good evidence that you will see someday or to believe the truth about your vision and live accordingly.

Do you think it is a good thing to want to believe as many true things as possible?

"Blind belief in religion" as a methodological approach to ask a question.

How do you propose it is bad for the world?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Even now you don't get it.

Yeah, you are objectively right and I am objectively flawed, yet I am still here. That is the problem with your position. I am really really objectively flawed, yet I can do it and you can know it and respond to it. So what is the ontological property of being flawed?

This is all gibberish to me.

Sure, I doing a reductio ad absurdum on being objective and subjective. And the end game is that flawed changes for what it is, as whether if it is objective or subjective. But I am objectively flawed, so I didn't even write this, because I am not really in reality. That is how flawed I am and yet you will be reading this, through reality and in reality.

 

[Mock Turtle]

W. Bush confused the Al Qaeda with the Taliban.

The Taliban are religious and political leaders of Iraq, previously allied with the US, who captured bin Laden and his top aides merely 9 days after the 911 attack and offered to turn them over to the US.

W. Bush ordered the Taliban to immediately turn over bin Laden, but the Taliban had to vote on that (and they had no seat of power (Soviets destroyed their capital, so the Taliban roamed Afghanistan as individuals). So the vote was slow, and W. Bush was too impatient to wait.

Taliban's law is harsh, by US standards (hands get chopped for theft). Yet, US laws are lax by Taliban standards. OJ apparently stabbed to death Nichole Brown Simpson and Goldman, yet got off scott free.

After losing a thirty year war in Iraq, the Taliban is back in power in Afghanistan. The only thing gained is bitter resentment, and the belief that hot tempers motivate massive armed forces.

We can't kill 1,000,000 Iraqs (innocent of terrorism), then object to a few criminals facing harsh sentence.

I can't see that many not sympathising with the female population there - just that is enough to want to kick the Taliban into the rubbish bin.

 

[Truth in love]

So changing the subject somrehow
gives credibility to your silly nonsense
about religion in China.

But you want to get into trading punches, criticism of China V Wonderful USA, prepare for a bloody nose.

The average person in China vs the Chinese governments abuses are 2 different topics.

I don’t blame the average person in China for the government any more than I blame my neighbor for human rights abusers running the US right now.

The detachment from a belief that right and wrong are real and that God or some other thing are keeping score enables a lot of evil that would otherwise be held in check.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Now I like evidence for what a good reason is?

Why don't you start another thread to discuss this. It is a long discussion. What is good epistemology is a good discussion to have and come to conclusions on.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Good evidence as such and good evidence for good reasons for that they should not do that?

I think it can be demonstrated that believing false things to be true can be harmful. Such as believing that humors out of balance in your body is the reason for sickness can lead to bad treatments for sickness and lead to death. Believing the true reason behind a sickness is far better because you then can have a better chance of healing a person.

 

[MikeF]

IMO

It would be better because people would stop fighting about abortion, or which church is the "real" church. It would be worse because people will have lost a coping mechanism.

Can one not develop a coping mechanism that does not rely on an artificial construct of reality? In other words, do all coping mechanisms require religion (more specifically: gods, entities not bound by natural laws, metaphysical or transcendental planes separate and distinct from physical reality) to be effective?

...

As I see it from my perspective.

 

[MikeF]

IMO

They should be free to try. Much of our learning is trying. When someone finds a great video and shares it we tend to believe before we’ve seen it, yet when someone says God helped me out many reject it without hearing them out.

The flat earthers have shown us that a person may disbelieve something even when there are mountains of evidence. Belief is vital to learn.

I would say belief is immaterial as one can believe things that are not true. I would say corroborated experience is vital to learning.

 

[Audie]

The average person in China vs the Chinese governments abuses are 2 different topics.

I don’t blame the average person in China for the government any more than I blame my neighbor for human rights abusers running the US right now.

The detachment from a belief that right and wrong are real and that God or some other thing are keeping score enables a lot of evil that would otherwise be held in check.

Still trying to walk away from the phony claim
theres no religion in China.

As for forvreligiin providing right and wrong
to keep evil in check? Ha.
That I and other atheists dont understand right and wrong?

Moldy insulting nonsense.

If people want to do evil they ignore religion
or use it to justify their evil. Must i start listing
examples?

And since you want to compare, the USA
concocted a war with Mexico to steal
Texas, NM, Az, Ca and more.
Lookee! More evil in check!
Foreign interventions by the United States - Wikipedia

Tibet? You know nothing of the history.