Would the world be better off without any religion?

[Audie]

Hi Audie. Still flogging a dead horse I see. Lol

It you keep trying to ride it.

 

[Truth in love]

IMO



I would say belief is immaterial as one can belief things that are not true. I would say corroborated experience is vital to learning.

Experiences matters, but you would not have typed the above on your phone or what not unless you believed that action would give you a result. Belief is not restricted to the metaphysical and supernatural. I hope on my treadmill because I believe it will help me be heather and live longer. Yes there is a lot of data to support that belief and even the source in this case, but if I did not believe in at I would not act on it.

 

[Link]

Would the world and people be better off without any religion?

What would be better?
What would be worse?

It would be better off without religions that are false, which are all except one. And that one which is the true religion appears in corrupted forms, and corrupted forms often are worse then other false religions.

And so because humanity has not been sincere with regards to attributing God only truth, and not saying about him what they don't know nor uniting on truth nor seeking knowledge from the sent ones and their helpers, religion is a very bad state.

That said some light (most religions have some sort of foundation that stems from God) is better then no light.

Between false religions, even Satan worship and polytheism, and atheistic naturalistic point of view, I prefer false religions. Because they at least testify to some of the unseen and truth of God's light and unseen nature of humanity along with their vulnerable physical nature and other creatures (known as Jinn).

Naturalistic atheism (no room for hidden world, some atheist believe in hidden world, so not talking about this) is the worst state. Evolution as taught today is a joke when destroyed civilizations and ancient tech is found older than we supposedly started evolving.

 

[idea]

No, these are not the only two options. And in any case, have you not just labelled nature a monster?

Knowledgeable conscience cruelty is quite a bit different than unconscious cruelty. There is no menace behind a lightning bolt when it is just the laws of nature.

Have you ever tried to explain to an abused kid why God never intervened? Years and years of abuse by the patriarchy - and no God? God doesn't love them? they must have sinned? Perhaps in their premortal life they were a sinner. .... will you try to explain - it was a good thing you were abused, it made you stronger? (actually, no, abuse does not make you stronger, it gives you PTSD, keeps you from having a normal family, etc.)

Well, that God exists, is not the same as God permits horror and abuse. That is a more specific version of God and from existence doesn't follow the other. Nor that nature is natural, but not supernatural. There are more possibilities than those listed by you.

Possibilities:
1. God is all-powerful and all-knowing, and enjoys sitting back, doing nothing, watching some kids suffer and die. The suffering is worse when those in pain see others who are "blessed" randomly. #blessed, haha.... I'm sure they totally deserved it.
2. God is not all-powerful, and therefore not God.
3. God is not all-knowing, and therefore not God.

Thinking about it, the world is unjust, unmerciful. God ceases to be God if unjust, unmerciful etc. so reality clearly shows us there is no loving, just, powerful, God. No God. Any powerful being who sits back and allows what happens on this earth is no being to worship.

Best to face reality, do something real rather than "pray" which is doing nothing. Reading a fictional book, dressing up feeling chosen and better than others, preaching to others they know nothing about - privileged people escapism.

Religion is a way for people to avoid helping others - "I'll pray for you", or " it will all be worked out in heaven" - this is how people avoid actually serving and working for others in my experience.

Question for all the religious people out there - how much time have you spent getting dressed up, reading, and preaching, and looking good in front of others.... in comparison to how much time have you spent with immigrants? in soup kitchens? in hospitals?

I have to get back to work, do something real.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

What atheist religions are you talking about? I only know of a few, none have ever been involved in carrying out atrocities.

Confucianism, Shintoism and Taoism don't believe in the occidental concept of God. It could be said that they both adhere to two different approaches to a divine providence. They would call this heaven. The Confucius approach is pragmatic while the Taoist approach is passive. To Confucianist the heavenly way should be harnessed whereas Taoists think it should be left alone, to interfere would only due harm. Shintoism has countless gods. But their idea of a god is more like our idea of a spirit. The spirit of dead ancestors inhabit objects like mirrors, swords, mountains.

Buddha allegedly said there is no god and if there were a god it wouldn't be interested in the lives of men.

Hinduism and Scientology leave the belief in a god up to the individual. Hinduism is unique in that it has multiple gods but considers itself to be monotheistic.

As many as half of the people in Jewish sects are atheists. It's about community. Though they may be unlikely to admit it, probably as many Christians don't believe in god and belong to their religion for traditional, social and cultural reasons.

So, it's problematic to demonstrate atheistic or theistic beliefs. For the purpose of this discussion I would say that Judaism, Christianity and Islam were theistic, whereas Buddhism, Confucianism, Scientology, Shintoism and Taoism were not. Hinduism I could see going either way but from an occidental perspective, a different type of theism.

However I wouldn't want to argue any of that. If you disagreed completely with me, you would likely have good reason to do so and I couldn't "win" any argument against your position.

 

[Augustus]

prefer people based their beliefs upon reason and facts instead of religion or dogma's.

A worldview based on "reason and facts" could be equally as harmful as any dogmatic religion.

It is not reason and facts that create a tolerant and humanistic society, but sentiment and some kind of mythos to move from is to ought.

 

[Viker]

Confucianism, Shintoism and Taoism don't believe in the occidental concept of God. It could be said that they both adhere to two different approaches to a divine providence. They would call this heaven. The Confucius approach is pragmatic while the Taoist approach is passive. To Confucianist the heavenly way should be harnessed whereas Taoists think it should be left alone, to interfere would only due harm. Shintoism has countless gods. But their idea of a god is more like our idea of a spirit. The spirit of dead ancestors inhabit objects like mirrors, swords, mountains.

Buddha allegedly said there is no god and if there were a god it wouldn't be interested in the lives of men.

Hinduism and Scientology leave the belief in a god up to the individual. Hinduism is unique in that it has multiple gods but considers itself to be monotheistic.

At many as half of much of the people in Jewish sects are atheists. It's about community. Though they may be unlikely to admit it, probably as many Christians don't believe in god and belong to their religion for traditional, social and cultural reasons.

So, it's problematic to demonstrate atheistic or theistic beliefs. For the purpose of this discussion I would say that Judaism, Christianity and Islam were theistic, whereas Buddhism, Confucianism, Scientology, Shintoism and Taoism were not. Hinduism I could see going either way but from an occidental perspective, a different type of theism.

Were they directly involved in mass murder? I know of these and more. I've never heard of Buddhists carting off hundreds of thousands of non-Buddhists to be slaughtered for the sake of keeping Buddhism pure. Never heard of Buddhists starving hundreds of thousands of non-Buddhists as retribution for noncompliance with Buddhism (Stalinist tactic).

 

[MikeF]

Experiences matters, but you would not have typed the above on your phone or what not unless you believed that action would give you a result. Belief is not restricted to the metaphysical and supernatural. I hope on my treadmill because I believe it will help me be heather and live longer. Yes there is a lot of data to support that belief and even the source in this case, but if I did not believe in at I would not act on it.

Just to be clear, did you mean to "hope on my treadmill" or "hop on my treadmill"? I could see how you could mean either.

Did I merely believe I could get a result from using the keyboard, or did I know I could get a result. I think we can make a distinction and I think it is important to make such distinctions. What we know about the world is simply our reasoned expectations based on our experience. The quality of that knowledge is limited by the limits of our perspective, or ability to experience. As such, the conclusions we draw, our reasoned expectations, are held with varying degrees of confidence.

We can take actions because we believe something to be true, but most often in life, we take action based on probability. With high probability, we are confident in the outcome, but always recognize that some unforeseen event can interfere. If we have insufficient information upon which to decide, we take a calculated risk. Our action is not a belief in a positive outcome, simply one taken with varying degrees of confidence. Absent sufficient evidence to take a calculated risk, we may chose at random, or simply hope that a desired result occurs.

I would think that the goal is to avoid ill-informed or false belief, that category of beliefs held as true or valid (or at least claimed as such) with little or no evidential support, or at worst, with actual conflicting or contradicting evidence.

Not all belief is the same and we can and should make that distinction.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

Were they directly involved in mass murder? I know of these and more. I've never heard of Buddhists carting off hundreds of thousands of non-Buddhists to be slaughtered for the sake of keeping Buddhism pure. Never heard of Buddhists starving hundreds of thousands of non-Buddhists as retribution for noncompliance with Buddhism (Stalinist tactic).

Oh. Well, let me introduce you to this Buddhism and violence

 

[Wildswanderer]

No religion gives people hope.
Hope is the basis for motivation.

Would the world and people be better off without any religion?

What would be better?
What would be worse?

,

 

[MikeF]

No religion gives people hope.
Hope is the basis for motivation.


,

I would also include need and want as a basis for motivation.

 

[AppieB]

A worldview based on "reason and facts" could be equally as harmful as any dogmatic religion.

I don't think so.

It is not reason and facts that create a tolerant and humanistic society, but sentiment and some kind of mythos to move from is to ought.

But you make a good point here. I would call it empathy and the desire to pursue a 'good' life.
As a human being I think we have more or less the same basic desires (avoid pain and suffering and pursue health and happiness). But from that common starting point I would definitely want that people use reason and evidence instead of faith and dogma.

 

[Nakosis]

Certainly we construct narratives, to make sense of the world, to help us navigate our way through it, and to give meaning and purpose to our lives.

Everyone does this, often unconsciously, but by no means everyone is aware of doing it.

Of course, if we were aware, we'd realize its fictional nature.
Though I suspect it was likely beneficial in doing so for our survival.
We have to create the stories and believe in their possibility in order to act on them.

 

[Heyo]

Hope gets people through horrible situations sometimes.

... and keeps them in horrible situations other times.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Wow, that is terrible, I am sorry that happened to you.

Thank you for your kind response to my post, Clizby Wampuscat. I appreciate it.

I went through similar abuse except it traumatised me so much that I ended up in mental institutions after 6 suicide attempts. Six courses of electro convulsive therapy could not help. I could not complete my schooling and suffered depression for many years until I found Baha’u’llah, the Promised One awaited by all humanity.

Then my sadness turned into blissful joy, I have been happily married for 43 years and now even studied at uni and my entire life has become stable and joyful.

When society turns to materialism these corruptions abound but if people become spiritual and virtuous, they will not do these terrible things. So in my case, it was irreligion which brought about my demise and turning to God, the remedy.

Disobedience to the laws and teachings of God creates a hell on earth while obedience to His laws brings happiness.

But in both yours and my case, the people involved chose disobedience. However, I have been more than compensated by God for all the injustices and abuses I suffered by finding Baha’u’llah. I hope it turns out well for you too. Do not lose hope. There is Baha’u’llah.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, loverofhumanity. I appreciate it. I'm happy that you found a religion that brings you peace and healing. I haven't found that yet, but I'm not looking for it either. I've decided not to become emotionally dependent on a religion after the hell I went through while I was still a Christian. I know that I'm better off emotionally being casual towards religion rather than fully embracing a new one and letting it take over my life. I'm perfectly happy to keep Wicca and Spiritualism at arm's length.

 

[Heyo]

A worldview based on "reason and facts" could be equally as harmful as any dogmatic religion.

It is not reason and facts that create a tolerant and humanistic society, but sentiment and some kind of mythos to move from is to ought.

How can you move from "is" to "ought" when your imagination of "is" isn't based in reality? You could land on every ought you wish.

 

[The Hammer]

Why is there a theme of going to the worst examples? It's no different than mentions of socialism automatically jumping to their instead of places like France or the Scandinavian countries? They are, after all, working with a base of secularism and a dose of socialism in their state models.

Because this is one of (quite a few) the examples we discussed in my "Religion and Globalization" class.

For instance "Research shows that increased secularization results in higher engagement in riskier behavior (e.g. drug and alcohol consumption)."

IZA World of Labor - The rise of secularism and its economic consequences

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What's with all the folks on this thread claiming there's no good evidence for God or one's religion? Have any of you making these claims actually looked at the arguments for theism at all? It's as though many on RF think literally the only reason folks believe in God is because they want to. This is absurd. Have you ever considered that there may actually be good reasons people believe in God? I cannot believe the juvenility of some atheistic argumentation on here, it's embarrassing.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, Rival, but what good reasons are there to believe in God (the Christian God)? I once believed in him, but that was a terrible mistake on my part, as I shared here earlier in this thread. As I look back at my own life and look at the condition of the world (abused children, people killing each other with impunity, sex abuse scandals, rape, domestic violence, deadly diseases and viruses, poverty and starvation, natural disasters, racism, racial violence, and religious bigotry), I'm thinking that there's really no good reason to believe in a loving, merciful God who supposedly loves me and the rest of humanity. Now, I know devout Christians and other Abrahamic theists love to fall back on the freewill excuse to explain the terrible condition of the world and to dismiss God's atrocious behavior towards humanity, but I think that's a pathetic cop-out. As I've said before, if I see another person being physically attacked, I wouldn't think, "I'm not going to save that person because I don't want to impose on their attacker's freewill." Or if I knew of a child being abused, I wouldn't think, "I'm not going to save this child from being abused because I don't want to impose on their abuser's freewill." Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as a survivor of childhood abuse, I don't see any good reason to believe in and have hope in God. I don't begrudge other people having hope in God, but I think it's a false hope.

 

[cataway]

No religion gives people hope.
Hope is the basis for motivation.


,

no hope ? when did you give up?

 

[Rival]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, Rival, but what good reasons are there to believe in God (the Christian God)? I once believed in him, but that was a terrible mistake on my part, as I shared here earlier in this thread. As I look back at my own life and look at the condition of the world (abused children, people killing each other with impunity, sex abuse scandals, rape, domestic violence, deadly diseases and viruses, poverty and starvation, natural disasters, racism, racial violence, and religious bigotry), I'm thinking that there's really no good reason to believe in a loving, merciful God who supposedly loves me and the rest of humanity. Now, I know devout Christians and other Abrahamic theists love to fall back on the freewill excuse to dismiss God's atrocious behavior towards humanity, but I think that's a pathetic cop-out. As I've said before, if I see another person being physically attacked, I wouldn't think, "I'm not going to save that person because I don't want to impose on their attacker's freewill." Or if I knew of a child being abused, I wouldn't think, "I'm not going to save this child from being abused because I don't want to impose on their abuser's freewill." Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as a survivor of childhood abuse, I don't see any good reason to believe in and have hope in God.

I'm talking about theism in general, not the Christian God. I'm not a Christian. There are several arguments used routinely by theists, but you'd have to go to someone else for Christian specific arguments. I'm talking about things such as the Cosmological Argument; The Argument from the Existence of Evil; the Ontological Argument; the Argument from Design; Fine-tuning; Moral Argument; Argument from the Existence of Free Will etc.