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Would the world be better off without any religion?

Would the world be better off without religion?

  • yes

    Votes: 13 27.7%
  • no

    Votes: 24 51.1%
  • not sure

    Votes: 10 21.3%

  • Total voters
    47

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Thank you for your kind response to my post, Clizby Wampuscat. I appreciate it.



Thank you for your thoughtful response, loverofhumanity. I appreciate it. I'm happy that you found a religion that brings you peace and healing. I haven't found that yet, but I'm not looking for it either. I've decided not to become emotionally dependent on a religion after the hell I went through while I was still a Christian. I know that I'm better off emotionally being casual towards religion rather than fully embracing a new one and letting it take over my life. I'm perfectly happy to keep Wicca and Spiritualism at arm's length.

The main thing is that you’re ok now. It’s terrible to go through those things especially when it involves relatives. My step uncle used to sexually abuse me as a child. I really was at that age when I didn’t understand what he was doing yet resisted. When I got married and he wanted to visit me I didn’t let him in.

About a year later I heard on the radio that he had been bashed with a baseball bat at a restaurant rendering him crippled. Then soon after he died. I don’t know if that was God’s justice but at the time I felt it was. Take care.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
RF isn't the first forum I visited. And I'm not looking only for evidence. Sure, I need good evidence if someone claims their god is real but I'd take a rational argument for an ideal god or a construct. But most apologist couldn't even decide where to classify their god.

I'm not totally adverse to "god proves", though. I even came up with one myself, simple and rationally flawless. In syllogistic form it is:

P1: Clapton is god.
P2: Clapton exists (and is real). (And there is good evidence.)
C: God exists (and is real).

Well, it is valid, as for sound that is where the fun starts.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
While useful it seems to dismiss the role religion played in setting up those nations.

The religious underpinnings of the USA’s founding is well documented, religion was at the heart of the push to end slavery and civil rights.
Whilst conveniently forgetting this no doubt helped mostly wipe out the indigenous population too. Quite easy if one only wants to look at the supposed 'good' done by anything. But no doubt you have an answer as to such - the invaders had God's blessing whilst the indigenous population didn't? :oops:
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Whilst conveniently forgetting this no doubt helped mostly wipe out the indigenous population too. Quite easy if one only wants to look at the supposed 'good' done by anything. But no doubt you have an answer as to such - the invaders had God's blessing whilst the indigenous population didn't? :oops:

The complexity would be hard to understand.

I was not dismissing the negative there is quite a bit of that as well. Witch trials, my own couple great grandfather was beaten, branded and tossed in an icy river for having unpopular beliefs.
Some of the abuses are done by mobs others by government. It’s always wrong.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The complexity would be hard to understand.

I was not dismissing the negative there is quite a bit of that as well. Witch trials, my own couple great grandfather was beaten, branded and tossed in an icy river for having unpopular beliefs.
Some of the abuses are done by mobs others by government. It’s always wrong.

I like you. You are always right. So here is always wrong as how it works in practice. If something is different to you, as you do it, it is always wrong, because you say so.
That is your trick and that has nothing to do with you in particular. Because I can do that too. You are different and since I am always right, you are always wrong. ;)

So here is a more complex version.
You are right and I am wrong.
You are wrong and I am right.
Sometimes it is about making a compromise and not being right or wrong.

But as long as you do black and white, when you do it, I will simply be wrong, yet still be here as all the other wrong humans and their wrong acts.
So here is some science for you:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html

So where are you on that scale? And where am I? You are trained in that kind of science so use your science. :)

The answer is in effect even a bit more complex than Kohlberg made it out to be. Even for you and me. :)
 

idea

Question Everything
Well, I am not standard religious, so I won't answer for the religious people.
As for your logic about God, that only applies if you check through evidence what God is.

Evidence in what is real. Everyone's lives on this world, in all countries, in all conditions. Anything worthy of worship would need to be there equally for everyone - not small privileged chosen little flock - everyone.

Whatever end is imagined, the end does not justify the means. An imagined end with only a few "saved" is an incompetent unloving God. The whole thing is prideful, hypocritical, unjust, unloving.

Congintive dissonance is real, I've experienced it - my mind clicking, temporarily refusing to see and hear what is too horrible.

I believe religion is a form of cognitive dissonance, their minds are trapped, a way to escape reality, avoid responsibility, for those not strong enough to deal with reality.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
as for religion ....whats going to happen ??
4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong."
you all are talking about and wondering
Would the world be better off without any religion? looks like you are going to find out
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You probably haven't looked very far or very hard. There are decent arguments on both sides. The atheists are just so wedded to philosophical naturalism that they won't accept literally anything other than God standing right infront of them or some other empirical evidence. Your window of evidence is too small and bizarrely narrow.
I have spent my life listening to arguments for theism. Not one of them rises above "pitiful".

You're welcome to surprise me.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Evidence in what is real. Everyone's lives on this world, in all countries, in all conditions. Anything worthy of worship would need to be there equally for everyone - not small privileged chosen little flock - everyone.

Whatever end is imagined, the end does not justify the means. An imagined end with only a few "saved" is an incompetent unloving God. The whole thing is prideful, hypocritical, unjust, unloving.

Congintive dissonance is real, I've experienced it - my mind clicking, temporarily refusing to see and hear what is too horrible.

I believe religion is a form of cognitive dissonance, their minds are trapped, a way to escape reality, avoid responsibility, for those not strong enough to deal with reality.

Yeah, they are not really worthy of being called humans or treated as such. ;)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I have spent my life listening to arguments for theism. Not one of them rises above "pitiful".

You're welcome to surprise me.

Well, you are the standard for how to be a human and I will surprise you. I am not that standard and yet I am also a human.
As long as you in effect do cognitive relativism differently than me, I will still do "pitiful" and still in effect for the everyday world be different that you, just as with every other human for which they are different.
So you are the standard for the "we" and I will do "them" as long as it takes. ;) As a tribal human, I have chosen "them", because they are the outcaste for all the different cases of "we".
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well, you are the standard for how to be a human and I will surprise you. I am not that standard and yet I am also a human.
As long as you in effect do cognitive relativism differently than me, I will still do "pitiful" and still in effect for the everyday world be different that you, just as with every other human for which they are different.
So you are the standard for the "we" and I will do "them" as long as it takes. ;) As a tribal human, I have chosen "them", because they are the outcaste for all the different cases of "we".
Honestly, I don't know how or whether this that you are saying connects to what I posted. Or to theism, or to arguments for theism.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Honestly, I don't know how or whether this that you are saying connects to what I posted. Or to theism, or to arguments for theism.

No, because what is meaningless to you, is meaningless to everybody else. The problem is that meaningless is not objective. That is a 1st person subjective standard in you.
Atheism and Materialsm
Here. Learn to notice when you do a first person evaluation of meaning as to you and when you are judging the worth of other humans.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Sure but that does not mean the world would not be better off without it.

Well, it depends on what versions we are in effect talking about.
I know people who think they are rational, when they are not and that makes them potionall as dangerous as religious people.
So doubt religion as much as you want. I will do that too and et I will continue to doubt the "we are normal, sane, rational, objective and all that" crowd as well. Because sometimes they might learn something by doubting that.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Would the world and people be better off without any religion?

What would be better?
What would be worse?

The world would be better off without organized, politicized religion.

I don't see where anything would be worse if people could learn to live without religion, but that would mostly be to their benefit, not the unbeliever's. What benefit is that? Religious belief often impedes moral and intellectual development. Too often, the believer is left in a more undeveloped state of magical thinking of being continually watched and judged. He lets others dictate moral values to him and often uncritically accepts immoral ideas such as the persecution of LGBTQ as moral.

He learns that faith is a virtue and that the cognitive dissonance of reason questioning irrational ideas is the devil trying to steal his soul, leading him on a path in which critical thinking, higher education, and science are often disesteemed. This is especially harmful to the adherent, and predisposes him to a lifetime of susceptibility to indoctrination for having never developed the defense against it, often unaware that there is another and more useful way of thinking. We saw this with the anti-vaxxers. That wasn't a religious issue, but faith in gods is practice for faith in anything else. Being told that faith is superior to reason predisposed people to listen to crackpots over experts, and impaired their ability to understand the death by vaccination status data. We all suffer when others are defenseless against indoctrination or take anti-science attitudes.

The believer also often learns that the universe is fit for destruction, that his body is vile flesh temporarily housing a soul, and to be uninvolved in his world. This last idea hurts everybody.

And he is often encouraged to maintain the mindset of a dependent child or subject rather than that of an autonomous citizen.

I see the removal of all of that from society to be a plus.

Most all religious people have hope. Getting rid of religion gets rid of their hope.

Vulnerable people (starving, powerless, in danger) will continue to pray for protection with or without religions, and it probably helps them to do so. But for people whose lives are stable enough that atheism is a tenable option, growing up outside of religion is a better path. In such settings, religion creates the need for itself by preventing maturation without it. The unbeliever has assimilated that there may be no god or afterlife, that there may be nobody protecting us or answering prayer, that man may be the only source of moral intuitions, etc.. He doesn't need religion for hope.

However there are religious groups such as St Jude's that do wonders for people. Without religion would others step up and do the same?

Did you see the church's response to the need during the pandemic? Religion does almost nothing compared to government. I was a medical resident in a Catholic hospital. We did not accept the uninsured who were stable for transport to the county hospital.

I live in a Catholic country now. Our village has a Catholic church. Money goes one way. Poor people are giving it to a wealthy institution that does nothing for the community and it appears spends nothing on its adherents, either.

St. Jude's was principally the vision of a single man. There is no reason to believe that he needed religion to care about children with medical needs. Does the church contribute to this charity that it seems to be getting credit for here?

And in the area of private charity, the most important entities are secular, like Greenpeace, Amnesty International, Planned Parenthood, the Red Cross, the ASPCA, and Doctors Without Borders.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I like you. You are always right. So here is always wrong as how it works in practice. If something is different to you, as you do it, it is always wrong, because you say so.
That is your trick and that has nothing to do with you in particular. Because I can do that too. You are different and since I am always right, you are always wrong. ;)

So here is a more complex version.
You are right and I am wrong.
You are wrong and I am right.
Sometimes it is about making a compromise and not being right or wrong.

But as long as you do black and white, when you do it, I will simply be wrong, yet still be here as all the other wrong humans and their wrong acts.
So here is some science for you:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html

So where are you on that scale? And where am I? You are trained in that kind of science so use your science. :)

The answer is in effect even a bit more complex than Kohlberg made it out to be. Even for you and me. :)

(Warning this went long).
In dealing with massive issues like starting a new nation the good bad and ugly get complex. The nation was needed for many reasons not the least of which is having a beacon of liberty which resulted in almost all nations writing constitutions, as well as the consent of the governed vs Devine rights of kings being widely accepted at the basis of government.

On the flip side more than a few innocents native were killed in the process. Mild to moderate abuse of others has been as common as cold in Alaska.
I suppose it’s a bit like DR. Strange breaking a rule to save mankind.
I think we have to be very careful in any such actions. When a guy shows up with a big knife screaming his intent to kill my kid I’m fully justified in shooting him. On the other hand someone just giving me the creeps is not.

hind sight helps a bit we can see that not having America would have most likely meant a Russian or Nazi run world. I would argue that God wanted a free America (despite all her flaws) as it helps His children around the world. If we were more honest upright etc. the help would be greater and the harm reduced.

Long story short. God can at times directly or indirectly move bits of the chess board for his purposes. So at times a sacrifice is needed. God having all power can compensate/reward any for their loses.

From our view it often looks unfair, but he can sort it out.
 
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