would you worship an evil god if you were 100% sure of his existence?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Yes, I would. He is a God, right?

Might does not make right. A wise person would be more concerned with how a god uses their power rather than with the fact they're all-powerful.

 

[Godobeyer]

But it doesn't forbid the practice of slavery which is something we'd reasonably expect from the complete & true religion from the supreme source of morality in existence.

Which religion forbid the slavery ? or encourage free slave as Islam ?

Pointing out that the infidel does it too doesn't excuse Muslims doing it.

Just hunderds of years ago , USA built by slaves

 

[ThirtyThree]

To the slave master, slavery is ethical and good. Only the slaves complain.

Consider how many humans treat "lower" forms of life and even each other. Why should we expect a supernal, much less the Creator to treat us differently than how we treat such things?

This is why I fail to understand how anyone can expect the Creator to be omni benevolent, or for the supernals to be mainly altruistic.

 

[cambridge79]

I don't see it as an example of that as all. Their death here is the means for their rectification or (if necessary) reincarnation. Within the framework of their sin, they are benefiting by now being able to move passed it to a more positive situation. Because death is not the final stop, its more like a healing surgery, difficult and painful, but ultimately beneficial.

but you said just moments ago that you would consider evil a god asking you to kill people, now i'm confused

 

[Tumah]

but you said just moments ago that you would consider evil a god asking you to kill people, now i'm confused

Not every killing is murder. Like pretty much everything else, there's a time when its appropriate to kill and a time when its not.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Which religion forbid the slavery ? or encourage free slave as Islam ?

Just hunderds of years ago , USA built by slaves

Okay, seriously, is the tu quoque fallacy (aka 'what about them?') all you can reply with when people point out Islam's flaws? (That's 'you' as in Muslims in general. Not yourself specifically, Godobeyer)


It doesn't counter or defeat the points I've raised. Yes, the USA and most of Europe indulged in the immoral obscenity that is slavery. That doesn't mean the Islamic world didn't; nor that Islam (the supposed complete & true religion handed to humanity from the supreme source of morality in existence, I might add) failed to do the moral thing and abolish slavery . The fact that you're having to use the immoral unbelievers as both benchmark & apology for comparing the moral-or-not nature of Islam's doctrines is telling (and a little repetitive).

 

[Thanda]

I find it hard to believe an evil God would ask us to do evil. I think he would just make us do it. In that sense I suppose I probably would support him, whether I liked it or not.

 

[Parsimony]

Although it would seem to me that the "right" thing to do would be to not worship the evil deity by committing acts of evil, I have to admit that I am only human and have a limited threshold when it comes to fear and pain. How many people with a gun to their head will disobey a mugger because they don't think he deserves to be respected or obeyed? If I knew for a certainty that I would be tormented for an eternity if I didn't follow this deity's commands, I'd probably end up submitting out of fear. Sorry if that's a disappointment, but I'm just being realistic.

 

[Godobeyer]

Okay, seriously, is the tu quoque fallacy (aka 'what about them?') all you can reply with when people point out Islam's flaws? (That's 'you' as in Muslims in general. Not yourself specifically, Godobeyer)


It doesn't counter or defeat the points I've raised. Yes, the USA and most of Europe indulged in the immoral obscenity that is slavery. That doesn't mean the Islamic world didn't; nor that Islam (the supposed complete & true religion handed to humanity from the supreme source of morality in existence, I might add) failed to do the moral thing and abolish slavery . The fact that you're having to use the immoral unbelievers as both benchmark & apology for comparing the moral-or-not nature of Islam's doctrines is telling (and a little repetitive).

Slavery is gone in Muslim world (in general) before it's gone in USA and Europe .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

suppose you're 100% sure there's a god, an allmighty god, that created the universe and all the rest, and this god asks you to kill, rape, torture and plunder in his name.

if you worship him he will send you in heaven where all sort of good things happens to you.
if you refuse to worship him he will send you in hell where eternal pain and torture awaits you.

would you worship him?

I dont like to idea of worship. I would only worship if I am forced to. In this case, I have no moral reason to even if I wanted.

 

[cambridge79]

Slavery is gone in Muslim world (in general) before it's gone in USA and Europe .

is Qatar a muslim country?
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/05/88225/fifa-corruption-qatar-slaves-world-cup
problem is in modern world slavery did not disappear, just changed shape.
and i've called out muslims here but it's the same for western countries

 

[Godobeyer]

is Qatar a muslim country?
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/05/88225/fifa-corruption-qatar-slaves-world-cup
problem is in modern world slavery did not disappear, just changed shape.
and i've called out muslims here but it's the same for western countries

Most of Kings of Oil mistreating the poor workers , they sometimes humilated them .

I was there I am witness


That's definitly wrong .

Slavery is somebody you can by money or capture it (in war) , it's different than mistreating workers .

 

[cambridge79]

Not every killing is murder. Like pretty much everything else, there's a time when its appropriate to kill and a time when its not.

well it depends on how you derive the knowledge to distinguish when is right and when is wrong to do it. I mean i think we all agree that i f a man enters my house, with a gun, menacing to hurt my family, i have the edge to stop him in every possible way.
but here we're talking about people that simply started to worship an idol. and those people were not even strangers, they were their brothers and sisters. Yet they killed them one by one in the name of god because god asked them to do that. that doesn't look such a solid reason.
They could have simply said "ok, you stay here with your idol and we leave" or "this is the land of our lord please go away with your idol you ungrateful pagans"

i mean you said my fictional god was, i quote your words "infantile" because he asks you to kill in his name for his pleasure, while your real god actually asked you to kill in his name for no better reason ( he was, as the bible put it, quite pissed off. And again, it was brothers and sisters that struggles with them for years wandering trough the desert, those man were killing, . I'm sorry to keep hitting the same button, it wasn't even intended when i started the conversation to come up with this episode, but since we stumbled on it i really can't figure out the difference.
Did i have to add the word "infidels" when i said my god requested to kill people, to make it moral or just?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Slavery is gone in Muslim world (in general) before it's gone in USA and Europe .

Nonsensical and untrue. Slavery was abolished in the Muslim world thanks to the wane of the Ottoman Empire, its defeat in World War One and the rise of colonial influences from Western nations which had already abolished slavery. The practice of slavery exists today in Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Sudan & Mali; all of which are Muslim majority nations. If what you say is true then there'd be no slavery there. Oh, and it's worth pointing out the Ottoman Empire was a pretty big chunk of the Muslim world for the longest time.

Your point also doesn't counter the fact that Islam doesn't prohibit slavery. If it did then there wouldn't have been a slave trade for post-Enlightenment colonial interests to get rid of. It took the European Enlightenment and pressing abolition on the Muslim world to demolish much of the slave trade network that existed.

Have a look at this source by people who've actually explored, studied and witnessed its effects first hand. But, of course, I expect you'll just dismiss it because

1. It challenges your perspective and;
2. It's written by non-Muslims.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fdh3GYnXvrAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ISLAM'S+BLACK+SLAVES+segal&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ISLAM'S BLACK SLAVES segal&f=false

 

[Augustus]

suppose you're 100% sure there's a god, an allmighty god, that created the universe and all the rest, and this god asks you to kill, rape, torture and plunder in his name.

if you worship him he will send you in heaven where all sort of good things happens to you.
if you refuse to worship him he will send you in hell where eternal pain and torture awaits you.

would you worship him?

If this God was undeniably real in a way that rules out self-delusion, etc. and you knew 100% that his commands reflected his will and wasn't a test, then you would have to consider that your own moral system was wrong.

People who say 'I wouldn't do that' are basing it on their own reasoning that is predicated on either a god not existing or the idea that a god must be 'good' according to their existing morality that was based on a now incorrect paradigm.

There's been a few of these thought experiments before and it always surprises me that many people would not change their minds if god was objectively real. Surely a rational person would integrate new evidence into their decision making. It would be delusional not to accept that this god was 'right' in his commands and that you were 'wrong'.

Also the idea that knowing with absolute certainty that you have the option of an eternity of the worst torment imaginable verses an eternity of bliss wouldn't make you behave any differently is ridiculous.

Refusing such a god would be the most self-defeating thing imaginable as you would face an eternity of torment in order to be objectively wrong

 

[FearGod]

Nonsensical and untrue. Slavery was abolished in the Muslim world thanks to the wane of the Ottoman Empire, its defeat in World War One and the rise of colonial influences from Western nations which had already abolished slavery. The practice of slavery exists today in Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Sudan & Mali; all of which are Muslim majority nations. If what you say is true then there'd be no slavery there. Oh, and it's worth pointing out the Ottoman Empire was a pretty big chunk of the Muslim world for the longest time.

Your point also doesn't counter the fact that Islam doesn't prohibit slavery. If it did then there wouldn't have been a slave trade for post-Enlightenment colonial interests to get rid of. It took the European Enlightenment and pressing abolition on the Muslim world to demolish much of the slave trade network that existed.

Have a look at this source by people who've actually explored, studied and witnessed its effects first hand. But, of course, I expect you'll just dismiss it because

1. It challenges your perspective and;
2. It's written by non-Muslims.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fdh3GYnXvrAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ISLAM'S+BLACK+SLAVES+segal&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ISLAM'S BLACK SLAVES segal&f=false

Are you living in this world?

Modern slavery is a reality also in Europe

Even rich Western countries like Iceland, Ireland and the United Kingdom cannot be considered to be free of modern slavery. It is estimated, for example, that there are as many as four thousand modern slaves in the UK – and more could be done to help them, writes Nick Grono.

Nick Grono is chief executive officer of the Walk Free Foundation, an global organisation campaigning against slavery.

Modern slavery may not be as visible as in the past, but it’s found in the richest and poorest countries, in our major cities and in the countryside. As our societies have developed, slavery has evolved as well. Victims are transported on 747s as well as ox-carts. It’s used to produce everything from electronics, steel, food, and the cotton in our clothes. It turns its victims into pliable servants to be used and discarded.
http://www.euractiv.com/justice/slavery-remains-scar-humanity-eu-analysis-531144

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Are you living in this world?

Modern slavery is a reality also in Europe

Even rich Western countries like Iceland, Ireland and the United Kingdom cannot be considered to be free of modern slavery. It is estimated, for example, that there are as many as four thousand modern slaves in the UK – and more could be done to help them, writes Nick Grono.

Nick Grono is chief executive officer of the Walk Free Foundation, an global organisation campaigning against slavery.

Modern slavery may not be as visible as in the past, but it’s found in the richest and poorest countries, in our major cities and in the countryside. As our societies have developed, slavery has evolved as well. Victims are transported on 747s as well as ox-carts. It’s used to produce everything from electronics, steel, food, and the cotton in our clothes. It turns its victims into pliable servants to be used and discarded.
http://www.euractiv.com/justice/slavery-remains-scar-humanity-eu-analysis-531144

All true; but my point is it's illegal here and has been illegal in the West for longer than in the Muslim world; which would not be the case if Islam prohibited slavery.

 

[FearGod]

All true; but my point is it's illegal here and has been illegal in the West for longer than in the Muslim world; which would not be the case if Islam prohibited slavery.

Illegal or legal, the fact remains that it's still there.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Illegal or legal, the fact remains that it's still there.

I've already conceded that and pointed out that it's not relevant to the argument I was making.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I would not.