Writings/Texts/Essays regarding the Temple of Set?

[Hagbard]

That is, of course, until the individual ToS setian makes an interpretation that is outside the orthodoxy of the ToS leaders. Then the philosophy and literature is revealed to be the gospel and canon that it is actually believed to be by the ToS hierarchy.

Setian philosophy was perhaps born in the ToS but it has outgrown those who gave birth to it and who have sought to turn it into another dead religion. Innovative setian philosophy and practice is most fertile outside of the crib of the temple.

 

[Adramelek]

That is, of course, until the individual ToS setian makes an interpretation that is outside the orthodoxy of the ToS leaders. Then the philosophy and literature is revealed to be the gospel and canon that it is actually believed to be by the ToS hierarchy.

Setian philosophy was perhaps born in the ToS but it has outgrown those who gave birth to it and who have sought to turn it into another dead religion. Innovative setian philosophy and practice is most fertile outside of the crib of the temple.

I am wondering Hagbard, what proof do you have to substantiate your claims here against the Temple of Set?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[L.Keane]

That is, of course, until the individual ToS setian makes an interpretation that is outside the orthodoxy of the ToS leaders. Then the philosophy and literature is revealed to be the gospel and canon that it is actually believed to be by the ToS hierarchy.

This was your personal experience Hagbard or are you recounting another person's opinion? I've not once experienced this as a member not have I observed it from other members.

 

[Hagbard]

I was a member for a few years, was recognized to the II*, and was active in the local Pylon. I have also been present at a few Conclaves. So yes, my experience is personal. I also base my opinion on my personal experiences outside of the temple, interacting with friends who still participate in ToS setianism.

To be clear, I have no particular beef with the ToS. There are some good magicians and philosophers among the Adept in the temple. However, it is my experience that a good number of the higher degree initiates are operating and creating a religion. Just like all other religions it contains sacred cows, dogma, party line, and group think...in my opinion these do not lend themselves to the evolution of setian praxis. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the secret order paradigm does more to hinder than advance the Great Work. There was a point in our history when institutions like the ToS really served a role as a gathering place for cutting edge magicians. In my opinion such orders no longer serve this role but instead operate as religions. Of course there is nothing "wrong" with religion, or being in a religion, but I personally do not think it is the optimal fit for cutting edge magic.

To those on the boards who are seeking a knowledge of setianism I would say look to the writings of the temple but look beyond that. Use the publicly published temple reading list as a good jumping off point for further inquiry directed by your Self. Read the public works of Webb and Flowers, as well as the work Aquino has published. With a little knowledge of the workings of the internets you can find most of the temple's written works...even the so-called current stuff. If you feel inspired then become a member, see if it fits you. Above all else realize that the final authority on what is setian comes from an awakened Self. Go figure out how to Awaken. No temple, or organization can give this to you, and it should not matter whether or not they "recognize" it. Do the Great Work if you are a magician...leave religion to the religious.

 

[L.Keane]

Hagbard,

Thank you for clarifying your perspective. Its always helpful to know where someone is coming from with such things.

 

[Sireal]

Hagbard,

Active particiation denotes skill in Setian BM and that skill is recognized by those who have been there. As a former Adept you know what this takes to accomplish. Outside of the Temple, a place I am very familiar with, it is exceedingly difficult to put the pieces together. I would go as far as to say that if you had not become Adept through our school you would not be saying these things here nor would you have the proficiency you seem to think is obtainable outside of the Temple. Having been to Conclaves, Pylon meetings etc. you have come across the phrase "true Initiation only happens mouth to ear" Now, I know there are those who would disagree with this, however as history and the present quality of seekers on this path exemplify, this holds true. Of course there will be the odd one able to glean the essence of true Initiation, certainly not the majority and rarely w/o some sort of mentorship.

By asserting that one does not need the school (that taught You!) you are shooting yourself in the foot and in a more mundane sense talking through your hat, for as you Know Initiation is a life long process and you most certainly do not strike me as a being with extensive Initiatory/life experience, were you in possession of such experience I hazard a guess you would not hold the perspective you postulate here. I suspect you were a rather new Adept when you left the Temple. Also you do a disservice to your fellow travelers on the LHP. The Fact remains, to be Setian, affiliation with and face to face interaction with other members of the Temple of Set is imperative, and I did notice you use the term setian as opposed to Setian.

This is not to say that some form of Initiation is possible w/o the Temple, Dr. Aquino states this very clearly in his KHPR interview and elsewhere in pubic doc's. As a former Adept you also know that you are not qualified to speak on administrative (III*+) Temple matters and that you have done this speaks to another problem, perhaps why you left the Temple? who knows, you are certainly not speaking from experience as you were not a Priest. Those of the Priesthood that have left on not so good terms have exactly the same things to say that you do only a bit more vitriolic.
ie: we've heard this song and dance before. So, to clarify, this is the Setian _DIR_, not the Setian Complaint Dept. Stay on topic please.

I was a member for a few years, was recognized to the II*, and was active in the local Pylon. I have also been present at a few Conclaves. So yes, my experience is personal. I also base my opinion on my personal experiences outside of the temple, interacting with friends who still participate in ToS setianism.

To be clear, I have no particular beef with the ToS. There are some good magicians and philosophers among the Adept in the temple. However, it is my experience that a good number of the higher degree initiates are operating and creating a religion. Just like all other religions it contains sacred cows, dogma, party line, and group think...in my opinion these do not lend themselves to the evolution of setian praxis. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the secret order paradigm does more to hinder than advance the Great Work. There was a point in our history when institutions like the ToS really served a role as a gathering place for cutting edge magicians. In my opinion such orders no longer serve this role but instead operate as religions. Of course there is nothing "wrong" with religion, or being in a religion, but I personally do not think it is the optimal fit for cutting edge magic.

To those on the boards who are seeking a knowledge of setianism I would say look to the writings of the temple but look beyond that. Use the publicly published temple reading list as a good jumping off point for further inquiry directed by your Self. Read the public works of Webb and Flowers, as well as the work Aquino has published. With a little knowledge of the workings of the internets you can find most of the temple's written works...even the so-called current stuff. If you feel inspired then become a member, see if it fits you. Above all else realize that the final authority on what is setian comes from an awakened Self. Go figure out how to Awaken. No temple, or organization can give this to you, and it should not matter whether or not they "recognize" it. Do the Great Work if you are a magician...leave religion to the religious.

 

[L.Keane]

Hagbard,

Having read over both your post and Sireal's reply I feel a few further words are necessary.

In an earlier post you say that "Setian philosophy was perhaps born in the ToS but it has outgrown those who gave birth to it and who have sought to turn it into another dead religion." This is not, in fact that case. Xeper, when properly understood and applied is not something that can sustain a "dead religion" and my experience, as an Adept, has been that the Temple of Set is a dynamic matrix that actively encourages and reinforces Xeper of the Individual. The "dead religion" issue seems to me to be one of personal projection. It is clear that you have issues with the "leaders" and their "orthodoxy" (and I suspect you have issues with the notion of "leaders" and "orthodoxy" in general). However, as you well know, or should know, the Temple of Set is a School of Black Magic first and foremost. The tools the Temple promote and provide both the time and space to Become. I'm not sure what projecting about "orthodoxy" and "Leaders" had to do with your Xeper and to be honest I don't really care, that is your issue. However, your emphasis on the Temple as "religion" is oversimplified and imprecise.

You say:

However, it is my experience that a good number of the higher degree initiates are operating and creating a religion. Just like all other religions it contains sacred cows, dogma, party line, and group think...in my opinion these do not lend themselves to the evolution of setian praxis.

No offense intended Hagbard but this really does come across as retrospective bitterness and is clouded by imprecise vocabulary. If your experiences at Conclave are even a fraction of what mine have been you would understand that the Teachings of the Temple, as Sireal indicates, are truly and Individually experienced mouth to ear and are not found in books or sundry groups of "setians" who can make whatever claims of attainment they want because they do not have the rigor of Recognition to contend with. However, receiving Initiatory teachings mouth to ear implies one is ready hear what they Need to hear and have the courage to implement the Teachings. It seems to me, just from what I have been reading from you, that you heard and saw and experienced what you thought you wanted rather than what you actually Needed to hear and see and experience. I suspect that your complexes with "religion" (a very difficult term to define to begin with) or "group think" were not refined through your period of Adepthood and had, in effect, tainted your experience. Again, my experience talking with the "leaders" has been talking with those who have walked their Path with the same goal as I have; To Become. It is unfortunate that you did not find what you Needed in your time as an Adept (I experience immense Joy when an Adept is Recognized) but don't reduce and skew the Teachings of the Temple of Set with buzz words or vague statements about "religion" and "sacred cows".

Be Well Hagbard and may you find what you Need.

 

[Hagbard]

A bit of clarification: I was an Adept withing the ToS for just about 4 years. A number of priests in the temple felt I should move in that direction, and it was then that I began the process that eventually led to my resignation. I began to recognize that the temple is not a school of initiation but a religion. If anyone doubts this please note that any criticism of the temple is usually met with a personal attack and heated defense my some member of the priesthood. Now, it has been quite a few years since my college days but I have no experience of an actual school that maintains a priesthood. If the temple is not a religion then why a priesthood? It can be denied, but at a certain level in the ToS this is an open reality. The priesthood knows this, why they continue to attempt to keep it secret I do not know. If you do not believe me then go do the research. As mentioned before, you can find the relevant inner temple documents online.

When I joined the temple there were no public writings and there was no internet (as it exists today). Luckily the people who are today developing an interest in this stuff have many resources of information at their finger tips. As pointed out earlier most, if not all, of relevant ToS info is available in one form or another online or at the local book shop.
Regarding mouth to ear: yes, a mentor is of great help. But I ask you, who was Aquino's setian mentor? Who was the setian mentor to the original founders of the temple system? My point is that it is possible to find true Initiation outside of the ToS. Is it easy? Not necessarily. But it is possible.

One of the greatest gifts I received from the temple was the contact with other individuals who were making magickal experiments. At the time, with no modern internet, this was extremely important. I imagine that today's new seeker can make relevant contact with potential mentors through forums like this, meetups, local magickal gatherings, organizations like the Rune Guild, and yes, the ToS.

I am not attempting to discourage people from exploring the temple. The temple serves many useful functions. I count amongst some of my closest friends current ToS members of grades through MT. However, I still maintain that the temple is a religious organization first and foremost. Those who are magicians or aspiring magicians can take it or leave it, membership in a religion is not at all necessary for evolving Initiation.

To Sireal: I am sorry that you feel the need to personally attack me. I recognize that your role, and identification as a priest requires you to do so.

To L. Keane: if the ToS continues to serve you well then by all means keep at it. I have read your public writings and you seem to be experiencing the magick of Initiation. Above all, do what works.

To the new folks seeking info about setian praxis: be scavengers...be diligent. You can find this information all around you. Your existence breaths it. No organization has copyright on Initiation. It cannot be given to you. True Initiation is internal.

 

[L.Keane]

Hagbard,

A couple things come to mind from your post.

First, it sounds as though your experiences as an Adept were from quite a while ago. I think it would be reasonable to assert that your experience of the Temple then is not the same as it is for current Initiates. People change, and Setians relish in self transformation. The current atmosphere is not one of dogma or religious zeal. I can't speak to the way it was but I can speak to the way it is, at least for me.

Second, I was a scavenger for 20 years. I am very diligent. However, no matter how many resources one compiles, no matter how many books, videos or pdfs one digests, there is something that cannot be transmitted outside direct interactions with other Initiates (not the least of which is having someone call one on their BS!). My concern is not how those "above" (or "below") MT view the Temple. As an Adept my concern and focus is my Xeper, as it should be for any Adept within the Temple (or any member of any Degree). The Priesthood can and do speak for themselves. It is in their actions, accomplishment and their Creations that I find their Essence. Ultimately though it is their Essence. I am not concerned with their individual personal views but I do respect the Path they have tread. It is not an easy one. I have observed the weight of Darkness.

Be that as it may, obviously you have found what you Need outside the Temple. If that is the case then your choice to leave was clearly best for all involved.

Be well.

Lloyd

 

[Adramelek]

What is so controversial about the Temple of Set being a religion? What first attracted me to the ToS those many years ago was that it is both a religion and a school of Initiatory Black Magic. The ToS does not deny that it is a religion, it never has. To me personally, it is literally the Temple of the Prince of Darkness on Earth. For me, there is no doubt in my mind that That which is known as Set is a very real and tangible Entity within the Universe, for I am convinced that I have my own self experienced at rare times his/its Presence during Magical Workings and in the real world.

To me the "Priesthood" of Set is the most purest form and Function of the word. I can honestly say that I have become what I am today as a man and a Black Magician not just through what I have learnt and experienced on my own, but also through the continual remanifestation of the guidance I've received by professional Black Magicians - Initiates of the Setian Priesthood III*+. I will also add that the premise of the Setian "Xeper" is Self-directed Self-Evolution, and the freedom to create one's own personal belief system. I truly never saw in my time in the Temple of Set anything that reflected religious doctrine or dogma.

Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\

 

[Daelach]

So, to clarify, this is the Setian _DIR_, not the Setian Complaint Dept.

Neither this is the TOS advertising DIR. And I'd like to remind you we are not on xeper.org. Means: you will have to cope with others disagreeing on your view of the TOS - they are as on topic as you are. Just with a different notion. Trying to shut down discussions this way actually favours Hagbard's position.

 

[Daelach]

I truly never saw in my time in the Temple of Set anything that reflected religious doctrine or dogma.

That doesn't necessarily contradict Harbard's position, I guess..

 

[Hagbard]

I think that if individuals within the ToS are finding meaningful experiences and teachings within the ToS then they should surely take advantage of that. My goal is most certainly not to try to argue otherwise.

I do feel it is important to point out that there have been numerous schools of Initiation that have, in the past, found it necessary to hide themselves behind religious organizations in order to survive. I would argue that with the ToS you have a religion hiding behind a school of Initiation. By this I mean that at some point, and rather quickly actually, in order to "advance" within the ToS and continue "recognized" xeper one must adopt the beliefs of the Setian religion. Some people have adopted this religion, express it, and do not even realize that they are expressing a dogma created by someone else. One might join the ToS seeking a school of Initiation. If they stick around long enough what they will find is a religion.

Now there is nothing inherently "wrong" or "right" with a religion. However, if one is attempting to traverse the LHP, I would argue that adopting a religion is in itself an indication that one has lost the thread of the Path.

This is of course my personal experience and opinion. Others should feel free, and be free to develop their own.

Relating to the initial thrust of the thread I would point out that discussions like these are valuable contributions to the development of setian praxis.

 

[MacKinnon]

I would argue that with the ToS you have a religion hiding behind a school of Initiation. By this I mean that at some point, and rather quickly actually, in order to "advance" within the ToS and continue "recognized" xeper one must adopt the beliefs of the Setian religion.

"Recognised" Xeper does not require an "advance" within the ToS. What you say suggests that the Work and Xeper of an initiate is consistently ignored unless they become a member of the Priesthood.

You don't speak as though you have a good understanding of the Temple's degree structure, and appear to cheapen it by likening it unto a ranking system.

Any initiate who makes his purpose of being affiliated within the Temple some attempt to rise through the ranks is very quickly disappointed with their inevitable lack of progress. They have only themselves to blame for this kind of dissatisfaction, because they are not focusing on their initiation, their Xeper.

 

[Hagbard]

This is a pointless direction to go in as I think we both know without doubt that what you are asserting is simply not true.

 

[L.Keane]

One might join the ToS seeking a school of Initiation. If they stick around long enough what they will find is a religion.

Hagbard,

This is simply not the case. One could (and likely should) remain Adept (2nd Degree) their whole time in the Temple. At no time is an Adept expected to acknowledge the "religious" aspect of the Setian philosophy. The Priesthood is different but as MacKinnon has indicated the Degree structure is not about a Second Degree Working toward the Third Degree. The Second Degree should be Working at Becoming the best Second Degree they can Be. That is a lifetime of Work in and of itself. There is no "hiding behind" anything. The literature available indicates as much (as has been my experience and the experience of the Adepts I have current contact with).

More to the point, though, "religion" is not a simple thing to define (my ill conceived academic discipline of many years was "Religion"). Although I am not a fan of Clifford Geertz, his definition (greatly paraphrased) is the a religion reflects a cosmology and an axiology-- how the universe came into existence and how we are to act within that universe. There is nothing nefarious in this. Using the malleable word "religion" as a shock term indicates, on the surface at least, a limited understanding and use of the term.

All best,

Lloyd

 

[L.Keane]

Neither this is the TOS advertising DIR. And I'd like to remind you we are not on xeper.org. Means: you will have to cope with others disagreeing on your view of the TOS - they are as on topic as you are. Just with a different notion. Trying to shut down discussions this way actually favours Hagbard's position.

Hello Daelach,

You are correct, this DIR is not solely a Temple of Set DIR. However, the initial question of this thread, which has been derailed to a small degree, was worded in such a way to indicate that the Temple of Set was the focus of inquiry. At least that was my take on it.

All best,

Lloyd

 

[Hagbard]

Lloyd,
Thank you for the post regarding religion. I think it opens up a topic worthy of a thread of its own. I like your paraphrase of Geertz and without going into detail here I still assert that the adopting of a religion runs counter to the thrust of LHP Initiation. I would also point out that if a II* in your temple was not required to accept, in at least some form, the religious underpinnings of ToS setianism, there would be no restriction on their membership in other religious organizations. The ToS requires a baseline of dogmatic conformity after the I*. This is, in my opinion, the point at which a deviation of LHP praxis occurs. In my experience it only increases after that initial point. Despite having left the temple I maintain a number of friendships with current II*, III*, and IV* initiates. I see nothing in these people that seriously contradicts my assertions. Through these friendships I am kept informed of recent updates to the various Tablets and literature, and again, see nothing that seriously contradicts my assertions

I would very much enjoy having a conversation with you and other open minded folk regarding religion and the LHP. Perhaps, if others show an interest, we can create a thread for such a discussion.

 

[L.Keane]

Hagbard,

My interpretation of the restriction on Adepts being part of a religion outside of the Temple is due to the very fact you have been presenting: many religions require the Individual to abandon themSelves for a greater "good". Xeper would not be possible without the Individual. If one is focused on Xeper one cannot be also working toward Salvation, Nibbana, Obeying God, etc. However, Adepts are not restricted from exploring the tools used by those institutions/religions, should the Need surface (to learn their "tricks" for example) nor are they, generally, restricted in Working with other Initiatory paths, should they not fall contrary to the Setian philosophy (such as Xeper).

What I find disconcerting is that there are current II*-IV* who are discussing internal documents with non-Temple members. What I find confusing, given your position reflected in your posts here, is why you would even care to discuss Temple happenings at all. I would have thought that if you left on good terms you did so to further your Xeper in other ways or that if you were dismissed that you would have come to realise that you and the Temple were not compatible and look elsewhere. I'm not asking for clarification, I'm simply indicating my own concern for the fact, if true, that Initiates are openly sharing Temple material.

While I have no problem discussing Religion or the LHP (in other threads) I am not comfortable discussing anything more pertaining to my experience in the Temple. I'm sure you understand.

All best,

Lloyd

Lloyd,
Thank you for the post regarding religion. I think it opens up a topic worthy of a thread of its own. I like your paraphrase of Geertz and without going into detail here I still assert that the adopting of a religion runs counter to the thrust of LHP Initiation. I would also point out that if a II* in your temple was not required to accept, in at least some form, the religious underpinnings of ToS setianism, there would be no restriction on their membership in other religious organizations. The ToS requires a baseline of dogmatic conformity after the I*. This is, in my opinion, the point at which a deviation of LHP praxis occurs. In my experience it only increases after that initial point. Despite having left the temple I maintain a number of friendships with current II*, III*, and IV* initiates. I see nothing in these people that seriously contradicts my assertions. Through these friendships I am kept informed of recent updates to the various Tablets and literature, and again, see nothing that seriously contradicts my assertions

I would very much enjoy having a conversation with you and other open minded folk regarding religion and the LHP. Perhaps, if others show an interest, we can create a thread for such a discussion.

 

[Hagbard]

Lloyd,
Thank you for your response. I really appreciate your level headed replies and insights.

I know you did not ask for clarification but I offer it any way, as I think it can serve as a contribution to the hopeful evolution of the LHP.

I know for a fact that there are within the ToS people who want to see a transformation of the way LHP knowledge and practice is taught and transmitted. There are people who feel that the temple is a great resource and tool box but that it is still caught up in this antiquated notion of the need for secrecy and the whole paradigm of secret occult orders. These people remain quite active in the temple and yet they share the knowledge and experimentation of the temple to certain interested "outsiders". I imagine that many would see this as a betrayal, and perhaps to a certain degree it is. However, it may be a necessary betrayal, and one that moves things forward.

I left the temple on good terms. I left because I felt that I did not fit the mold of initiate that the religion of setianism attempts to create. I felt, and feel, that the temple has great benefit to offer in the way of magickal practice and philosophy. This is why I maintain a finger on the pulse of the temple.

I hope a day comes soon when the temple steps out of the limiting shadow that it has created around itself. The day of secret occult orders is drawing to a close. I believe that certain V* and VI* setians recognize this and are beginning to "go public" in a way that never happened in the past because of the realization that all the secrecy stuff, in the modern climate, is becoming more of a hindrance than benefit.