Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

It is the arrogant mark of this generation to think that their own opinions are superior to that of the experts even when the experts are in agreement.

Nazi experts were in agreement regarding exterminating the jews. Experts were in agreement that saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Papal experts were in agreement regarding inquisitions. A woman once went to, I think, Bertrand Russell to ask whether she should marry the man she loved. Russell told her that she came to him, not go to a pastor, because she knew what Russell would day. So go ahead chose your experts and live to see the third world war. Where is the unanimity when Aristotle said Jews came from india. Perhaps he was not an expert. There are many more quotes. Only experts don't want to look at them because their beliefs of 2000 years are shattered.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

If you wish, I will tell you how he breaks down your own foundations. No problem.

First, I did not tell you that Jews hate Welhausen. They don't agree with him. That does not mean hate. I am surprised that you would even drop his name if you don't know his thesis.

Welhausens source criticism brings a different paradigm for the Jews. Of course. It breaks down their belief in the Mosaic tradition. The Y source (J source) and the Elohists (I try not to pronounce their God's name) make a source basis for God's name. That falsifies God has a name. And the D will make it a new source, not mosaic. P source makes it strategic, not revelation.

Why would this break down your premises? Because it takes the authenticity out of the writings. Each source have their own agenda. So how would you authenticate it as true, false, genuine, historic or even apt to the time period in question? This completely breaks down your readings from the Pentateuch which is where you take your sources from.

I actually don't know why you dropped Welhausens name in this thread. It's irrelevant to that post you replied to, and it's irrelevant to this thread, it's also irrelevant to the Jews because they will never take his scholarship for linguistics, hermeneutics or interpretation. One main reason would be because Welhausen does not engage in any of these things.

Ok let us skip wellhausen for now. Please response to the 7 odd points i wrote how biblical geography matches with india valley.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Shall I give you the exact arabic grammatical term for that word? I already gave it to you. But here you go again. It's Faala Maadh waaltha dhameerun mathsala fee mahala rafaa asmi.

What do you mean kana Kanu? What are you talking about? That's just past and plural.

You made an absolutely false claim that it does not say "you were". If someone advised you, find a better advisor.

You have just made an arbitrary exegesis of the verse without even having basic knowledge of the language. That's fine I suppose but at least you should have the epistemic humility.

You can't just enter some words of your choice within brackets to distort it to mean what you want it to mean. That's begging the question.

Pl give yr translation of 28.44. I relied on quran corpus. Happy to hear your version.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Ah, I understand. Indus valley language had two daughters, Hebrew and Sanskrit. Nice research. Don't know why Govrnment of India has not awarded you 'Padma Vibhushan'.
The relevance is that Arabia had humans as early as 120,000 years ago. Climate changed and Arabia became arid. But I do not think humans and animals ever ceased to exist in Arabia. Arabia has many geographical regions. Not that whole of it is forbidding desert. And humans and animals do live even in forbidding deserts, like Namib and Atacama.
Arabian Peninsula - Wikipedia
Atacama Desert - Wikipedia
Namib - Wikipedia

Maybe they should give you padma for not applying your mind.
As for arabia please read history at 1500 bce to 800 ce.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The question is not of access. The question is of longing. The travails of exodus may not be worse than slavery. And they had houses with door posts. Gold. Carts or chariots. Where is slavery! Also the new king reigned only one generation. No evidence of looting. So where did the wealth go?

You can't be a slave if you have wealth? Of course you can, if you are being ruled by some country other than your homeland.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There is no indication it is addressing the prophet Muhammed.



Dr. Bharat. I think it's better to drop Welhausen.



The thing is this, you are quoting wellhausen (not quoting but mentioning his name), and then you are making statements from the Bible like "WHEN Abraham went to Mizraim" as if that really is historical. That's a contradiction. In that case you have to claim the source of those particular verses you pick are historically established, or that they are God's words, or that welhausens criticism is just rubbish. you have to pick a side.

Everyone knows that there were many early mentions of the name mizraim associated with Egypt. I am in no way propagating that the exodus definitely happened in Egypt at all, but your association is quite flawed because lets say Abraham lived before the Akkadian text, how do you know when Abraham existed? If your research is that extensive, why do you trust the Biblical dates and timelines? Do you have any historical evidence that Abraham existed in that time? Do you really believe Adam existed 6000 years ago? The first man? Because this timeline is including Adam. And if you are invalidating the Akkadian text that was written over a millennium before the new age, why do you quote the Qur'an which is less than half the age of the Akkadian writings?

Also, who wrote those texts in the Bible? Was it truly Moses's direct tradition? Did Moses or even Abraham for that matter really call Egypt by the name Mizraim. Maybe their language was a little different. What matters is what the writer meant when he was writing.

Don't you think?

Reg abraham. Someone said, eat the apple. The reply was how do you know this is an apple. How do you know it has no poison. How do you know it is not authentic. No fire no. That is not how dialogue works. Please place your thesis alongside. Only then it is possible to discuss. Hope you understand my difficulty. Thx.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

You can't be a slave if you have wealth? Of course you can, if you are being ruled by some country other than your homeland.

But bible does not say slavery at all. The context is that the Pharaoh was afraid of the Hebrews. They had gold. The conflict was probably religious. Yes, the Hebrews were herdsmen. They may not have weapons. But neither were all of them enslaved. How would Moses travel to Midian and back, and consult with elders, if they were all slaves. Technically it is still possible but the context is not of slavery.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I know that they are poles apart (apart from the word Mal'akh ha-Maweth, Malak al-Mawt, Mrityu). But Dr. Bharat has the capacity and research to bring the poles together.

Confucius said there are only 2 types. Those who know that they do not know. And those who do not know that they do not know. Which category do you belong, wise upmanyav?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nazi experts were in agreement regarding exterminating the jews. Experts were in agreement that saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Papal experts were in agreement regarding inquisitions. A woman once went to, I think, Bertrand Russell to ask whether she should marry the man she loved. Russell told her that she came to him, not go to a pastor, because she knew what Russell would day. So go ahead chose your experts and live to see the third world war. Where is the unanimity when Aristotle said Jews came from india. Perhaps he was not an expert. There are many more quotes. Only experts don't want to look at them because their beliefs of 2000 years are shattered.

Nazi scientists were not the worldwide community of scientists. You cannot interview only part of the scholarly population.

 

[firedragon]

Ok let us skip wellhausen for now. Please response to the 7 odd points i wrote how biblical geography matches with india valley.

Do you concede that Welhausen is irrelevant? I am the one who asked you to drop welhausen because its not going to help you or anyone for that matter. Now it's difficult for you to reconcile with your own name you brought in as a shock effect.

 

[firedragon]

Pl give yr translation of 28.44. I relied on quran corpus. Happy to hear your version.

Quran Corpus? Did you rely on the translation or what's inserted within brackets? Please check it up again and know what you were completely "against" the translation by making some weird statement saying It does not say "you were". You said someone called Saleem told you otherwise. You were not relying on Corpus Quran!

 

[firedragon]

Reg abraham. Someone said, eat the apple. The reply was how do you know this is an apple. How do you know it has no poison. How do you know it is not authentic. No fire no. That is not how dialogue works. Please place your thesis alongside. Only then it is possible to discuss. Hope you understand my difficulty. Thx.

You have to understood other peoples difficulty. First you brought in the word LXX but you could not provide any authentication with documents, dating, dating methodology or anything. You skipped it later. Then you brought in Welhausen but it works against you so now you skipped that also because it does not help you. You quote the Bible as if you believe it's Gods word, but bring in a scholar who defies it. You bring in Akkadian documents that says Misraim which is not old enough to reach Abraham, but then there are no documents dated to that time speaking of Abraham whatsoever. You seem to believe in the 6000 year old earth but there is no answer for that. You bring in the Quran quoting it from the 7th century but is rejecting Akkadian documents two millenniums earlier.

Begging the question. You see the difficulty?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Confucius said there are only 2 types. Those who know that they do not know. And those who do not know that they do not know. Which category do you belong, wise upmanyav?

There are people who need some tightening of screws in the brain.

 

[Wildswanderer]

But bible does not say slavery at all. The context is that the Pharaoh was afraid of the Hebrews. They had gold. The conflict was probably religious. Yes, the Hebrews were herdsmen. They may not have weapons. But neither were all of them enslaved. How would Moses travel to Midian and back, and consult with elders, if they were all slaves. Technically it is still possible but the context is not of slavery.

They were being forced to labor for another nation. Yes, they were slaves. Not in the same way that slavery worked in the US, but still slaves. And Moses ran away, remember? He was hiding in the desert to avoid being charged with murder.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

They were being forced to labor for another nation. Yes, they were slaves. Not in the same way that slavery worked in the US, but still slaves. And Moses ran away, remember? He was hiding in the desert to avoid being charged with murder.

Moses was adopted by the royal family. There is no indication of slavery in his running away. By slavery I mean ownership of the slave. Moses was not owned by anyone. Nor is there any indication that Hebrew people were worked for another nation. The increase of burdens is not ownership of the worker. The only power the Pharaoh had was to deny them going to the desert. That is a religious matter. No slavery anywhere in Egypt.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

You have to understood other peoples difficulty. First you brought in the word LXX but you could not provide any authentication with documents, dating, dating methodology or anything. You skipped it later. Then you brought in Welhausen but it works against you so now you skipped that also because it does not help you.

Begging the question. You see the difficulty?

No my friend. I still hold that LXX used the name mitsrayim, not egypt., Not kmt by which it was known to Egyptians. LXX identified mitsrayim with egypt. Between Ezra and LXX I have not studied. I hold. Ptolemy was around 300 bce. If not, instead of asking me for dates, please provide yours.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Then you brought in Welhausen but it works against you so now you skipped that also because it does not help you. You quote the Bible as if you believe it's Gods word, but bring in a scholar who defies it. You bring in Akkadian documents that says Misraim which is not old enough to reach Abraham, but then there are no documents dated to that time speaking of Abraham whatsoever. You seem to believe in the 6000 year old earth but there is no answer for that. You bring in the Quran quoting it from the 7th century but is rejecting Akkadian documents two millenniums earlier.

Begging the question. You see the difficulty?

I hold to wellhausen. You had difficulty with him being seen as challenging mosaic authorship. Not me.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

. You skipped it later. Then you brought in Welhausen but it works against you so now you skipped that also because it does not help yYou bring in Akkadian documents that says Misraim which is not old enough to reach Abraham, but then there are no documents dated to that time speaking of Abraham whatsoever. You seem to believe in the 6000 year old earth but there is no answer for that. You bring in the Quran quoting it from the 7th century but is rejecting Akkadian documents two millenniums earlier.

Begging the question. You see the difficulty?

You brought in quran. You could not answer my question. Reg Akkadian, please provide your evidence for misr at time of abraham according to you. And I am waiting for your kind response to the 10 odd points about geographic problems getting resolved in Indus. Please state your take on those problems. Thx.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Nazi scientists were not the worldwide community of scientists. You cannot interview only part of the scholarly population.

Exactly. So why not Aristotle?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Quran Corpus? Did you rely on the translation or what's inserted within brackets? Please check it up again and know what you were completely "against" the translation by making some weird statement saying It does not say "you were". You said someone called Saleem told you otherwise. You were not relying on Corpus Quran!

I learnt the problems from this discussion. Thank you. But please answer to whom was that verse said?