Yahweh is immoral

[ppp]

I assume this is a side discussion and not about the OP? (I'm not against a side discussion)

It is definitely a side discussion.

 

[Kenny]

It is definitely a side discussion.

So, I noticed you have no information on your profile. Are you a "once I die I become dust. Period!"? what is your policy? Pardon the pun

 

[ppp]

So, I noticed you have no information on your profile. Are you a "once I die I become dust. Period!"? what is your policy? Pardon the pun

Do I not? I will add some info. And yes, I have no reason to think that when I die I will do anything but leave a good looking corpse.

 

[Kenny]

Do I not? I will add some info. And yes, I have no reason to think that when I die I will do anything but leave a good looking corpse.

OK... just wondering. It will be good if you are right.

 

[ppp]

OK... just wondering. It will be good if you are right.

It may be good if I'm wrong. Heck, It may be bad if you're wrong.

 

[Kenny]

It may be good if I'm wrong. Heck, It may be bad if you're wrong.

If I'm wrong... I won't know it.

 

[ppp]

If I'm wrong... I won't know it.

Why on Earth would you think something like that? Are you under the impression that there are only two logical possibilities?
I would say count again, but you cannot count that high!

 

[joelr]

List of Canaanite deities

Canaanites gods.

• Anat, Virgin goddess of War and Strife, mate and sister of Ba'al Hadad
• Asherah walker of the sea, Mother Goddess, wife of El (also known as Elat)
• Astarte, possibly androgynous divinity associated with Venus
• Baalat or Baalit, the wife or female counterpart of Baal (also Belili)
• Ba'al Hadad, storm God, superseded El as head of the Pantheon
• Baal-Hammon, god of fertility and renewer of all energies in the Phoenician colonies of the Western Mediterranean
• Dagon, god of crop fertility, father of Hadad (usually).
• El Elyon (i.e. God most high) and El
• Eshmun or Baalat Asclepius, god of healing (or goddess)
• Kotharat
• Kathirat, goddesses of marriage and pregnancy
• Kothar, Hasis, the skilled, god of craftsmanship
• Lotan, serpent ally of evil,Yam

Asherah worship involved prostitution. She was also know as a consort of Baal.
Baal/Moloch worship included child sacrifices.

First of all there is no evidence that the Canaanites used child sacrifice.
"Although child sacrifice was known to surrounding peoples, there is no reference to it in ancient Phoenician or Classical texts. The biblical representation of Canaanite religion is always negative."

They were very similar to Israelites, farmers, religion..
"Canaanite religious practice had a high regard for the duty of children to care for their parents, with sons being held responsible for burying them, and arranging for the maintenance of their tombs."

Canaanite religion - Wikipedia

Asherah worship involved prostitution. She was also know as a consort of Baal.
Baal/Moloch worship included child sacrifices.

Ashera may have had different beliefs attached to her during the religious practices of the Canaanites but Ashera was worshipped by Israel as a consort of Yahweh. It is extremely common for nations to take deities from each other.
another example is Baal/Moloch, deities who were associated with child sacrifice under different cultures, not the Canaanites.


From your source....
"Classical sourcesTemplate:Which relate how the Carthaginians burned their children as offerings to Baʿal Hammon. "

"Later commentators have compared these accounts with similar ones from Greek and Latin sources speaking of the offering of children by fire as sacrifices in the Punic city of Carthage, a Phoenician colony. Cleitarchus, Diodorus Siculus and Plutarch all mention burning of children as an offering to Cronus or Saturn, that is to Ba‘al Hammon, the chief god of Carthage. Issues and practices relating to Moloch and child sacrifice may also have been exaggerated for effect. After the Romans defeated Carthage and totally destroyed the city, they engaged in post-war propaganda to make their arch-enemies seem cruel and less civilized"


Dr. Brendon Benz, Associate Professor of History at William Jewell College and Dr Josh Bowen answer the question, were the Canaanites evil as presented by the OT? It appears the Israelites were setting up the Canaanites as evil or "other" to give justification for taking their land.

"SOME" sources doesn't match with common understanding of "MOST" sources.

Right but you used one source? You didn't use "most" sources? Dr Josh Bowen has spoken on his work involving the Canaanite religion and said the same, no child sacrifice, not evil. The Wiki article also backs that up. Your source also backs up the idea that it was Carthage where that sacrifice was heard to be from. I have seen this from other sources as well.

 

[metis]

I'm not Mr. Know It All, but if there is such a group, I figure God knows what group they are.

Actually, I wrote the wrong thing as it was supposed to read:
"... but it's almost like one took various regional groups with differing beliefs, put them in a blender, and viola!"[/QUOTE]

Sorry about that.

 

[Sheldon]

Do I not? I will add some info. And yes, I have no reason to think that when I die I will do anything but leave a good looking corpse.

Well I have reason to hope I might also leave some wicked anecdotes behind with those who know me.

I think it is true that we die twice, first physically with the cessation of our consciousness, and then slowly as the people who knew us also die.

FWIW, I'm cool with this, death is the price of admission for this ride.

 

[Kenny]

Actually, I wrote the wrong thing as it was supposed to read:
"... but it's almost like one took various regional groups with differing beliefs, put them in a blender, and viola!"

Sorry about that. [/QUOTE]
I never, and I mean NEVER, did I think I would EVER see Metis make a mistake... let alone ADMIT he made a mistake

 

[ppp]

First of all there is no evidence that the Canaanites used child sacrifice.
"Although child sacrifice was known to surrounding peoples, there is no reference to it in ancient Phoenician or Classical texts. The biblical representation of Canaanite religion is always negative."

They were very similar to Israelites, farmers, religion..
"Canaanite religious practice had a high regard for the duty of children to care for their parents, with sons being held responsible for burying them, and arranging for the maintenance of their tombs."

Canaanite religion - Wikipedia



Ashera may have had different beliefs attached to her during the religious practices of the Canaanites but Ashera was worshipped by Israel as a consort of Yahweh. It is extremely common for nations to take deities from each other.
another example is Baal/Moloch, deities who were associated with child sacrifice under different cultures, not the Canaanites.


From your source....
"Classical sourcesTemplate:Which relate how the Carthaginians burned their children as offerings to Baʿal Hammon. "

"Later commentators have compared these accounts with similar ones from Greek and Latin sources speaking of the offering of children by fire as sacrifices in the Punic city of Carthage, a Phoenician colony. Cleitarchus, Diodorus Siculus and Plutarch all mention burning of children as an offering to Cronus or Saturn, that is to Ba‘al Hammon, the chief god of Carthage. Issues and practices relating to Moloch and child sacrifice may also have been exaggerated for effect. After the Romans defeated Carthage and totally destroyed the city, they engaged in post-war propaganda to make their arch-enemies seem cruel and less civilized"


Dr. Brendon Benz, Associate Professor of History at William Jewell College and Dr Josh Bowen answer the question, were the Canaanites evil as presented by the OT? It appears the Israelites were setting up the Canaanites as evil or "other" to give justification for taking their land.

Right but you used one source? You didn't use "most" sources? Dr Josh Bowen has spoken on his work involving the Canaanite religion and said the same, no child sacrifice, not evil. The Wiki article also backs that up. Your source also backs up the idea that it was Carthage where that sacrifice was heard to be from. I have seen this from other sources as well.

That was an excellent discussion. Thanks very much for linking it.

 

[joelr]

That was an excellent discussion. Thanks very much for linking it.

There are some good videos on Dr Josh channel Digital Hammurrabi
The discussion with OT Prof Francesca Stavrakopoulou is interesting as usual.

 

[metis]

Sorry about that.

I never, and I mean NEVER, did I think I would EVER see Metis make a mistake... let alone ADMIT he made a mistake [/QUOTE]
Hey, we both do believe in miracles, right?

 

[paarsurrey]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

" If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity? "

Why doesn't one discuss one's own case here, please?
What will Yahweh do to one, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Muffled]

I wouldn't worry about the theatre in Iraq..

Look towards the East .. China and Russia are on the warpath.

I believe oppression happens but it gets punished in the long run.

 

[Muffled]

Not all the Bible is in metaphors. Some verses are literal while others are allegorical.

I believe you understand that much. Now if you could actually figure out which is which.

 

[Muffled]

How do you decide which is which?

I believe the definitions help. For instance many of the parables are allegorical and metaphorical and clearly fictional stories and not actual events.

 

[Muffled]

" If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity? "

Why doesn't one discuss one's own case here, please?
What will Yahweh do to one, please. Right?

Regards

I believe everyone has heard the Gospel and their fate is determined by the reaction to it. I am reminded of the joke about the man trapped on his roof during a flood but drowned because he refused rescue because of false beliefs.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Their main deities were El and Asherah. The early Israelites took Ashera as Yahwehs consort until the 2nd Temple Period. The Canaanites had many other lower divinities.

El may have been worshipped by early Israel and conflated into Yahweh. There are different theories based on the evidence.

-
Whereas the Israelites originated as Bronze Age Canaanites, the origin of Yahweh is indeterminate (see Yahweh §Bronze Age origins). Following the introduction of Yahweh (localized to the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel (Samaria) and Judah), a shift in theophoric naming occurred in which the original and most ancient biblical names paying tribute to El (Isra-el, Dani-el, Samu-el, Micha-el etc.) began to be displaced by names paying tribute to Yahweh.

Mark S. Smith sees the conflation of El and Yahweh as part of the process which he describes as "convergence" in the period of the Judges and the early monarchy. Convergence saw the coalescence of the qualities of other deities, and even the deities themselves, into Yahweh. (Mark S. Smith, 2nd edition of The Early History of Israel, pp. 6-13) Thus El became identified as a name of Yahweh, while Asherah ceased to be a distinct goddess. And the attributes of El, Asherah and Baal (notably, for Baal, his identification as a storm-god) were assimilated into Yahweh.

An early version of Deuteronomy seems to place El as the head of the pantheon where Yahweh was given Israel. Later versions changed this. Some sources say Yahweh was Canaan first but I don't think this is supported by solid evidence

"Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel's development in Canaan."
Yahweh



William Dever seems to think so:


"Canaanite religion syncretized elements from neighboring cultures, largely from Mesopotamian religious traditions.[117] Using Canaanite religion as a base was natural due to the fact that the Canaanite culture inhabited the same region prior to the emergence of Israelite culture.[118] Israelite religion was no exception, as during the transitional period, Yahweh and El were syncretized in the Israelite pantheon.[118] El already occupied a reasonably important place in the Israelite religion, after all, even the name "Israel" is based on the name El, rather than Yahweh.[119][120][121] It was this initial harmonization of Israelite and Canaanite religious thought that lead to Yahweh gradually absorbing several characteristics from Canaanite deities, in turn strengthening his own position as an all-powerful "One." Even still, monotheism in the region of ancient Israel and Judah did not take hold overnight, and during the intermediate stages most people are believed to have remained henotheistic.[117]

1. Meek, Theophile James (1942). "Monotheism and the Religion of Israel". Journal of Biblical Literature. 61 (1): 21–43. doi:10.2307/3262264. JSTOR 3262264.
2. ^ Jump up to:a b Dever, William (1987). "Archaeological Sources for the History of Palestine: The Middle Bronze Age: The Zenith of the Urban Canaanite Era". The Biblical Archaeologist. 50 (3): 149–

I love Mark Smith's books, but they are dang expensive.