Yahweh is immoral

[Colt]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Hell is a fictional place invented by preachers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hell is a fictional place invented by preachers.

It is no more fictional than heaven.
Souls are immortal .. so if one is not in a state of heaven, what state are they in?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

No - I do not believe so and I do not believe the Bible teaches that.

I believe that the Bible teaches that there are three places/conditions our spirits can go to/experience after this life - and all of these places/experiences are temporary.

Paradise, Prison and Hell.

Paradise is where the faithful go - those who lived and died in the Lord - and they are commissioned to spend their time as missionaries to the spirits in Prison - teaching them the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They also receive callings to aid those in mortal life.

Prison sounds bad - but it isn't - it is merely called this because the spirits that dwell there are not free to travel like the spirits in Paradise and Hell - for they need to make a decision before they are free.

Those spirits in Prison are those who did not follow the Lord - either because they decided not to, or they never got the opportunity - yet they were also repentant and honorable while in mortality - and they are taught to by spirits from both Paradise and Hell - each side trying to entice them to their respective sides.

Depending on the choices they make in Prison - these spirits can move to either Paradise or Hell.

Hell is where the spirits of the unrepentant go - and while they suffer the punishment for their sins - they desire to inflict suffering on others.

The spirits in Hell will go and try to convince the spirits in Prison to join them and they may also be called to spread fear and anger to those in mortality.

So - when it comes to your example about the Pakistani girl - if she never accepted the Lord while in mortality - she would go to Prison and if she is as moral and just as you propose - she would see the need to accept the Lord and be forgiven.

She sounds like a person bound for Paradise and eventual eternal life in God's presence.

 

[blü 2]

I am in the view, we can be good to each other even while being evil and immersed in intoxication of love of the Dunya.

'Dunya', the net tells me, is the world, worldliness, the contrast to the spiritual. In my view, the world external to the self is the only objective reality there is; the spiritual exists only as a concept or thing imagined in an individual brain ─ but it's capable of being a positive thing as you say.

But to be truly good to each other, we have to enjoin each other truth and patience, and we have to enjoin each other to help the oppressed and poor.

I agree. Religion or no religion, gens una sumus ─ we're all of the same tribe.

Perhaps you and I are not all that far apart on the important things.

 

[Colt]

It is no more fictional than heaven.
Souls are immortal .. so if one is not in a state of heaven, what state are they in?

The wages of sin is death. The teaching that a soul is immortal was also invented by the same shamans who invented hell.

 

[InChrist]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

According to the biblical scriptures at least...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Doesn’t matter if someone is in Pakistan or the US or if one is a Hindu or a Christian...everyone falls short of God’s perfect standard of morality and justice.; no one is good. Only Jesus Christ was able to live a human life which met God’s standard of perfection. He alone had the ability to do so because while He became fully human, He was/is fully God. As the Savior and Mediator between God & humanity His perfect righteous is applied to the life of those who trust Him.
Yet, the scriptures also indicate that people are only held accountable for the information and truth they have been given, understand, or have had their God-given conscience convicted of by the Holy Spirit.

...for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2:12-16

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

No - I do not believe so and I do not believe the Bible teaches that.

I believe that the Bible teaches that there are three places/conditions our spirits can go to/experience after this life - and all of these places/experiences are temporary.

Paradise, Prison and Hell.

Paradise is where the faithful go - those who lived and died in the Lord - and they are commissioned to spend their time as missionaries to the spirits in Prison - teaching them the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They also receive callings to aid those in mortal life.

Prison sounds bad - but it isn't - it is merely called this because the spirits that dwell there are not free to travel like the spirits in Paradise and Hell - for they need to make a decision before they are free.

Those spirits in Prison are those who did not follow the Lord - either because they decided not to, or they never got the opportunity - yet they were also repentant and honorable while in mortality - and they are taught to by spirits from both Paradise and Hell - each side trying to entice them to their respective sides.

Depending on the choices they make in Prison - these spirits can move to either Paradise or Hell.

Hell is where the spirits of the unrepentant go - and while they suffer the punishment for their sins - they desire to inflict suffering on others.

The spirits in Hell will go and try to convince the spirits in Prison to join them and they may also be called to spread fear and anger to those in mortality.

So - when it comes to your example about the Pakistani girl - if she never accepted the Lord while in mortality - she would go to Prison and if she is as moral and just as you propose - she would see the need to accept the Lord and be forgiven.

She sounds like a person bound for Paradise and eventual eternal life in God's presence.

That's a interesting fairytale. I don't think its in the bible though.

 

[Neuropteron]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Hi,

I certainly can understand your sentiments.
However they are - partly at least- based on a wrong premise.

A thorough investigation of this doctrine will show that Jehovah never threatened sinners with eternal torture, this doctrine is a teaching of the Catholik Church and is not in the Bible.

As an example Paul says "...the wages sin pays is death" (Ro 6:23) the Bible defines death as the opposite of existence, not life in another form.

I realize that a short answer such as this one can not conclusively resolve feelings of outrage at the posibility that God would act in such a manner.
Paul admonishes us to judge other with righteousness, would not respect for the one that sustain life in us move us to ascertain ourselves of all the facts before speacking against him?

 

[Sedim Haba]

The Bible.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me - Wikipedia

A commandment given to the Jews only. All others can make use of an intermediary if they wish.

 

[Sedim Haba]

It is no more fictional than heaven.
Souls are immortal .. so if one is not in a state of heaven, what state are they in?

Evil souls? Lose immortality, destroyed forever in Final Judgement.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The wages of sin is death. The teaching that a soul is immortal was also invented by the same shamans who invented hell.

Evil souls? Lose immortality, destroyed forever in Final Judgement.

Do you think that G-d is immortal?
So you think that G-d can die, and no longer exist?

What is a soul made from? Is it a "part of G-d", or not?
If not .. then what is it, exactly?

Do you imagine G-d to be "an immortal soul" ..
.. whilst we are just "non immortal souls" ?

How does G-d know what we are thinking if there is no connection between a soul and G-d?
Radio waves, or something?

..and then, of course, there are the passages in the Gospel and the Qur'an that speak about hell.
The evidence is plain for all to see. You merely cherry-pick what you want to believe.
If G-d couldn't possibly let us suffer, then why do so many people suffer in this life?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

A commandment given to the Jews only.

Yet often taken as universal, given the ubiquity of the Bible.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Do I really need to specify I mean their doctrines?

Your interpretation of their doctrines, perhaps.

 

[Colt]

Do you think that G-d is immortal?
So you think that G-d can die, and no longer exist?

What is a soul made from? Is it a "part of G-d", or not?
If not .. then what is it, exactly?

Do you imagine G-d to be "an immortal soul" ..
.. whilst we are just "non immortal souls" ?

How does G-d know what we are thinking if there is no connection between a soul and G-d?
Radio waves, or something?

..and then, of course, there are the passages in the Gospel and the Qur'an that speak about hell.
The evidence is plain for all to see. You merely cherry-pick what you want to believe.
If G-d couldn't possibly let us suffer, then why do so many people suffer in this life?

Man isn't God, he is a child of God.
A soul comes into being when man chooses to do the will of God.

When man finally rejects God then he is in essence committing suicide. He wont exist anymore.

 

[muhammad_isa]

When man finally rejects God then he is in essence committing suicide. He wont exist anymore.

How convenient.
Which disciples do you actually follow?
..because it's certainly not the disciples of Jesus.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
-Matthew 13-

Clearly, you are not hearing.

 

[ppp]

When people murder, attack innocents, we rightfully for survival reasons for example, hate them, am I wrong? So the sense of justice, of hate towards evil and love towards good, is part of our biological mechanism per you or am I wrong?

I would certainly feel anger and disgust, which could reasonably termed hate. Though for me hate usually manifests from more direct and interpersonal connections. I understand that it is not that way for everyone. But sure, I will go with that.

The way I see it, is God entrusted us his qualities and some of them we know and some of them we don't, but they are all entrusted to us for our sake.

I understand.

Anger has a proper place, and is a manifestation of moral emotion you may call it, but when applied to evil. Every quality has a proper place.

I think I understand that statement, but am not sure. What I am hearing is that Anger is the appropriate reaction to immoral acts. Tell me if I got that wrong.

The way I see it since I do believe in God, and believe the mapping is not us creating God in our image, but that God created us in his image, is that wrath has a proper place in God too.

See, this is a shift that I do not buy. You went from anger in your last statements, to wrath in this one. Anger is an emotion; an involuntary reaction. Wrath is a decision to act on that emotion. The existence of the emotion is not enough to morally justify the action.

It's scary when we think of his oneness in ultimate form, is each and every title in ultimate form, which includes Anger. It's scary because it means there is ultimate consequences to our actions and that God is the MOST severe in justice and place of Anger and retribution.

Torture is immoral. It is, in fact, an evil act that both angers and disgusts me.

Everything has a proper place. It's better while we have time and the world perishes, to side with the oppressed and not side with the oppressors. It's better we side with truthful in battle between truth and falsehood, and not take side of misguiding forces.

All of the oppressors of which I am aware attempt to force others to do their bidding through intimidation, threats, and force. What you describe as God, seems to me to do all those things.

 

[Colt]

How convenient.
Which disciples do you actually follow?
..because it's certainly not the disciples of Jesus.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
-Matthew 13-

Clearly, you are not hearing.

Clearly you are not understanding. Jesus is saying that the unsaved will die, be destroyed, cast in the furnace of fire. But you are saying that God will resurrect the unsaved and torture them forever.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. (mortal death of the body) 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

*The unsaved die after judgment.
*The saved lives after judgment.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Clearly you are not understanding. Jesus is saying that the unsaved will die, be destroyed, cast in the furnace of fire. But you are saying that God will resurrect the unsaved and torture them forever.

I'm not saying that G-d will torture anybody.

Who is torturing people in a mental asylum?
Is it the staff, is it G-d .. or is it something to do with their own souls?

 

[Colt]

I'm not saying that G-d will torture anybody.

Who is torturing people in a mental asylum?
Is it the staff, is it G-d .. or is it something to do with their own souls?

Well ok, since you believe that both the saved and the unsaved are resurrected for eternity what is your idea of hell?

 

[clara17]

A commandment given to the Jews only. All others can make use of an intermediary if they wish.

they can?
where do get this information?

The entire OT is about the results of worshipping other (fake) gods,
and there is Matt 4:10
and Luke 10:27
and 1 John 5:3
but maybe you know something i dont...