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Yahweh is immoral

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
If humanity is not fit to understand Yahweh's actions in the Bible, than that removes any responsibility we have to such God.

Why would an almighty God command his people to kill all those other tribes? It's God's job to remove evil from Earth, but, no, God commands others to do the killing.

There's no reasons given that justify killing all those tribes other than they are declared evil.

No reasons, and no deeper understandings given for destroying the people Yahweh demands be destroyed.

So believer's only justification is that God says it and so it must be done. That's pretty dangerous and immoral. So whatever God a believer has in their head they follow that God with blind faith.

The Bible commands blind faith. No reason, no justification, no deeper understanding. Only that God commands.
 

clara17

Memorable member
If humanity is not fit to understand Yahweh's actions in the Bible, than that removes any responsibility we have to such God.

Why would an almighty God command his people to kill all those other tribes? It's God's job to remove evil from Earth, but, no, God commands others to do the killing.

There's no reasons given that justify killing all those tribes other than they are declared evil.

No reasons, and no deeper understandings given for destroying the people Yahweh demands be destroyed.

So believer's only justification is that God says it and so it must be done. That's pretty dangerous and immoral. So whatever God a believer has in their head they follow that God with blind faith.

The Bible commands blind faith. No reason, no justification, no deeper understanding. Only that God commands.

Which is it?
They are declared evil? (for crimes you may not be aware of, maybe far worse than what was done to them)
Or there is no reason, no justification, no understanding, blind faith.
It can't be both.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

God defines morality for us, not for Himself. He said that we could not covet our neighbor's wives. Yet, God had baby Jesus with betrothed Mary.

You'd think that God would have let all religions know that He is the true God or not hold them accountable if they choose their own religion.

I'm guessing that God's suggestion box sends messages directly to hell (dead letter office).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
If humanity is not fit to understand Yahweh's actions in the Bible, than that removes any responsibility we have to such God.

Why would an almighty God command his people to kill all those other tribes? It's God's job to remove evil from Earth, but, no, God commands others to do the killing.

There's no reasons given that justify killing all those tribes other than they are declared evil.

No reasons, and no deeper understandings given for destroying the people Yahweh demands be destroyed.

So believer's only justification is that God says it and so it must be done. That's pretty dangerous and immoral. So whatever God a believer has in their head they follow that God with blind faith.

The Bible commands blind faith. No reason, no justification, no deeper understanding. Only that God commands.

"not fit to understand" Jack Nicholson had a role saying "you want the truth....you can't handle the truth."

"[Almighty God] commands others to kill" (after He commanded "thou shalt not kill)."

But, maybe it isn't a test of loyalty to God, maybe it is a test of morality of humans (that is, were they paying attention to the ten commandments?)

Ditto, maybe ordering Abraham to kill his son Isaac, was not a test of loyalty to God, but a test of morality. Why should God let an immoral person into heaven? Why let someone into heaven who cares more about himself than others? (Do unto others). Heaven would be hellish if selfish people were there.

"whatever God a believer has in their head they follow that God with blind faith." Hence 911.

Jews weren't better...commanded by God to wipe out the Canaanites and take their land.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
According to your religion, I would be one who is deserving of hell. Just for believing differently. Is that just?

Given all of the Christians who will go to heaven (those who defied God and killed in wars and made torture camps....those whose greed overwhelmed their support for the environment...etc), maybe heaven is a terrible place filled with greedy people who would kill their own sons to get into eternal bliss in heaven?

If so, maybe there is a place for those who don't get into heaven who believe differently but are good kind souls anyway?
 

clara17

Memorable member
This is probably the most tiresome argument that gets posted here 47 times a day...
(person or group) were thought to be christians and did (bad thing)

Again, you dont blame the speed limit sign when someone speeds past it.

and btw "greed overwhelmed their support for the environment" and "made torture camps"
what? what is the connection between these things and Christianity ?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Thank you, very informative :)
eternal hellfire / destroyed forever; still seems immoral to do this to the woman, no?
Regardless of what scripture actually says, people believe in the heaven and hell I described in the OP.........
I assume the same people know that worshiping another god is a sin. So do these people believe it's right for God to send her to hell?
Thank you for your reply.
In the first century we read the people praised Jesus, but when he did Not set up the kingdom right then and there many turned away from Jesus. Gospel writer wrote that after the apostles would be off the scene an apostasy would begin ( Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30). People would fall away from 1st-century Christian teachings.
Especially when un-faithful Jews began mixing with Greeks they adopted an un-biblical view about death/hell/grave.
False clergy (the weed/tares of Matthew chapter 13) teach their flock that un-biblical view as being Scripture.
This is why the majority of 'Christendom' (so-called Christians but mostly in name only) choose to believe that their religious leader teaches over what the Bible really teaches. - Matthew 7:21-23.
The woman died, like the rest of us, because; we can't stop sinning. If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
Jesus did Not die because he sinned, Jesus was put to death by his enemies.
In the Bible does anyone righteous go to hell _________
Righteous Jesus on the day he died righteous Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
Not to some burning hell but the Bible's hell the temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
So, as Jesus was, the woman is in a temporary sleeping state until Resurrection Day.
Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
'Deliberately with accurate knowledge' to turn one's back, so to speak, on Jesus would be rejecting Jesus.
That woman did Not have such knowledge about Jesus, just like, for example: before C. Columbus came to America the Native Americans did Not know about Jesus. Like the woman they are still sleeping in the gave ( aka biblical hell ) until Resurrection Day, then, after they are resurrected, they will then have the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Given all of the Christians who will go to heaven (those who defied God and killed in wars and made torture camps....those whose greed overwhelmed their support for the environment...etc), maybe heaven is a terrible place filled with greedy people who would kill their own sons to get into eternal bliss in heaven?
If so, maybe there is a place for those who don't get into heaven who believe differently but are good kind souls anyway?

I think we need to remember Jesus' words found at Matthew 7:21-23 that MANY come in Jesus' name proving false.
So, it would be the ' so-called ' Christians who imprisoned Jews and non-Jews in the torture camps.
Please notice the type of people resurrected to heaven as per Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10; Daniel 7:18.
They are Not greedy people but humble people like those found at Luke 22:28-30.
They are the ones who have that first or earlier resurrection as mentioned at Revelation 20:6.
They have two (2) heavenly jobs to do according to Revelation 5:9-10
1) they are there to serve mankind living on Earth as priests taking care of spiritual duties towards people of Earth.
2) they are to serve mankind living on Earth as kings taking care of governmental responsibilities towards people of Earth.
The humble meek people on Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11.
Those humble meek people are good kind souls who can gain everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Which is it?
They are declared evil? (for crimes you may not be aware of, maybe far worse than what was done to them)
Or there is no reason, no justification, no understanding, blind faith. It can't be both.
At Jesus' coming 'Glory Time' (Matthew 25:31-33,37)I find the living on Earth are judged by King Jesus.
Jesus does Not judge by outward appearance. Jesus can read hearts and his justice will be just.
This is judgement of those of us still alive on Earth at this ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.
The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' will execute the wicked.- Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15.
The dead have already paid sin's price in full by their dying. No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy.
The wages (total price tag sin pays) is: death - Romans 6:23,7 - Not death plus anything else.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I think it's unfair and immoral to deny this woman paradise. She was not given sufficient evidence of God’s existence to make a decision. Why would He demand worship of people who can't make an educated decision, and must believe based on bad evidence?
Her ' death ' will open the door to paradise because she will have a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
As Adam was offered the opportunity to live forever on a beautiful paradisical Garden of Eden on Earth, so the majority of mankind upon being resurrected back to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth with the same opportunity to live forever on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
Yet often taken as universal, given the ubiquity of the Bible.

That isn't our problem. Jews, unlike some other religions, hold that non-Jews can be
equal in righteousness. They just have a different path. We just wish that our path
was left to us to follow, instead of others telling us what that path is. As if we don't
know our own scripture.
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
they can?
where do get this information?

The entire OT is about the results of worshipping other (fake) gods,
and there is Matt 4:10
and Luke 10:27
and 1 John 5:3
but maybe you know something i dont...

Strange you should be posting Xian passages, the Xian Jesus is a perfect example of an intermediary.

Anyone who prays to Jesus instead of to G-d 'in Jesus's Name' or believes
in a trinity is using an intermediary. Perfectly fine for non-Jews may I add,
but a sin for Jews who are NOT allowed to use any intermediary. Clear?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
That isn't our problem. Jews, unlike some other religions, hold that non-Jews can be
equal in righteousness. They just have a different path. We just wish that our path
was left to us to follow, instead of others telling us what that path is. As if we don't
know our own scripture.

Sure. I am not actually debating the specific issue, only pointing out that it is an issue despite folks suggesting it is not.

In other words, I am giving examples of how Christians appear to believe that absence of faith in God leads to punishment, not debating that actual belief.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Anyone who prays to Jesus instead of to G-d 'in Jesus's Name' or believes
in a trinity is using an intermediary. Perfectly fine for non-Jews may I add,
but a sin for Jews who are NOT allowed to use any intermediary. Clear?
Anything that turns us away from G-d is not "perfectly fine", in my understanding.

Why does a person claim that somebody/something is G-d?
What is the result? Does it not lead to an authority that claims that YHWH/Allah is replaced by that somebody/something?

It is one thing to profess "through Jesus Christ Our Lord", and another to say they are G-d.
 

clara17

Memorable member
Strange you should be posting Xian passages, the Xian Jesus is a perfect example of an intermediary.

Anyone who prays to Jesus instead of to G-d 'in Jesus's Name' or believes
in a trinity is using an intermediary. Perfectly fine for non-Jews may I add,
but a sin for Jews who are NOT allowed to use any intermediary. Clear?

ok, you definitely know something I dont. like who xian jesus is. Maybe you can tell me.

Yes, I am clear that Jews are being led as far away from Jesus as possible.
 

clara17

Memorable member
That isn't our problem. Jews, unlike some other religions, hold that non-Jews can be
equal in righteousness. They just have a different path. We just wish that our path
was left to us to follow, instead of others telling us what that path is. As if we don't
know our own scripture.

What makes the scripture yours?
If the words in the scripture are true,
they describe the creation of all people,
a promise made to Abraham who was not Jewish,
and a law give to Moses who was not Jewish.

And if they are not true, of course there is nothing to discuss.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
By reading this, you would have Japan to continue the rape of Nanking across the globe.

WOW! I'm glad you aren't in charge.
Seriously what is wrong with you? I'm obviously pointing out passages in Deuteronomy that are immoral laws given by men in the Bronze Age pretending as if they are getting laws from a deity.
The U.S. did not follow these laws during any invasion of any Japanese territory. The Japanese did come close to following these immoral laws in Deuteronomy, further demonstrating they are terrible laws written by men or an immoral deity.
Even after stopping Japan we did not take the women and children as "plunder of war", we did not kill all the men after a surrender.

Why would you then suggest I would want a horror like Nanking to continue? By what logic do you find this comment to be reasonable? These immoral laws in in a book you value and from a deity you worship? Attempting to turn it around on me is your best way to deal with this immoral and disgusting material in scripture? Are you suggesting we need the barbaric laws in Deuteronomy to defeat the Japanese in WW2, even though we did not use those laws and used the most humane approach possible?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Seriously what is wrong with you?
Nothing... at least that is what my wife says about me. :)

I'm obviously pointing out passages in Deuteronomy that are immoral laws given by men in the Bronze Age pretending as if they are getting laws from a deity.
The U.S. did not follow these laws during any invasion of any Japanese territory. The Japanese did come close to following these immoral laws in Deuteronomy, further demonstrating they are terrible laws written by men or an immoral deity.
Even after stopping Japan we did not take the women and children as "plunder of war", we did not kill all the men after a surrender.

I don't agree in principle your position about Deuteronomy.

Apparently you haven't seen the effects of the rape of Nanking nor do you understand the immorality of the Japanese at than time. Japanese DID plunder women and children. Used them, abused them and many times killed them. Did you not study history?

Why would you then suggest I would want a horror like Nanking to continue? By what logic do you find this comment to be reasonable?

Because the two atomic bombs killed men, women and children. So, what is it, was it immoral to stop the Japanese continued plunder and wanton killing and abuse of people? Or is it moral to let the Japanese continue to plunder and wanton killing? To say yes to the first question is to say yes to the second or to say no to the first is to say no to the second and accept Deuteronomy.

In either case, your position is mute :)
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Deu 4:35: It was shown to you that there is no other God.
(before the people were even in the land Israel, not a Hellenistic trait later adopted)

Deuteronomy was written over a long period of time. The earlier parts have Yahweh as one of many Gods who rule other nations. As they got closer to the 2nd Temple Period they became more Yahweh-centric. Actually a nationalistic God being upgraded to supreme God is a Hellenistic trait?

"Deuteronomy's concept of God changed over time. The earliest 7th century layer is monolatrous; not denying the reality of other gods but enforcing only the worship of Yahweh in Jerusalem. In the later, Exilic layers from the mid-6th century, especially chapter 4, this becomes monotheism, the idea that only one god exists.[63] God is simultaneously present in the Temple and in heaven – an important and innovative concept called "name theology."[64]"
Book of Deuteronomy - Wikipedia

"
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme"

Really? When did that happen?

In the early OT Yahweh is clearly the God of Israel. Later after being Hellenized Yahweh is supreme in all later literature.

"Yahweh filled the role of national god in the kingdom of Israel (Samaria), which emerged in the 10th century BCE; and also in Judah, which emerged probably a century later"

"During the Hellenistic period, the scriptures were translated into Greek by the Jews of the Egyptian diaspora.[68] Greek translations of the Hebrew scriptures render both the tetragrammaton and adonai as kyrios (κύριος), meaning "the Lord".[12] After the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE the original pronunciation of the tetragrammaton was forgotten.[1"

Yahweh - Wikipedia

"
(Isaiah 56 among countless other scriptures before the Hellenistic period says he is saviour of all, not just Israel.)

but there is extensive evidence that much of Isaiah was composed during the Babylonian captivity and later, into the 2nd Temple Period.
Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia

The OT was canonized during the 2nd Temple Period. Isaiah was written during many periods all the way up to the 2nd Temple Period."
"the work of an anonymous 6th-century BCE author writing during the Exile; and Trito-Isaiah (chapters 5666), composed after the return from Exile."
Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia

The OT wasn't a book like we have it now. After the Persian invasion it was believed Yahweh was angry with them and this is when the OT was canonized. During this time (before the Greek period) they were influenced by the Persian myths. Revelations, world saviors, God vs Devil are all from the Persians. References to any type of messianic ideas will be traced back to at least early 2nd Temple Period. The OT books were still being written during this time. This is why we see so many Persian concepts enter Judaism.


This is from Mary Boyce book on the Persian religion. The scriptures are dated ~1600BC

Belief in a world Saviour

An important theological development during the dark ages of 'the faith concerned the growth of beliefs about the Saoshyant or coming Saviour. Passages in the Gathas suggest that Zoroaster was filled with a sense that the end of the world was imminent, and that Ahura Mazda had entrusted him with revealed truth in order to rouse mankind for their vital part in the final struggle. Yet he must have realized that he would not himself live to see Frasho-kereti; and he seems to have taught that after him there would come 'the man who is better than a good man' (Y 43.3), the Saoshyant. The literal meaning of Saoshyant is 'one who will bring benefit' ; and it is he who will lead humanity in the last battle against evil. Zoroaster's followers, holding ardently to this expectation, came to believe that the Saoshyant will be born of the prophet's own seed, miraculously preserved in the depths of a lake (identified as Lake K;tsaoya). When the end of time approaches, it is said, a virgin will bathe in this lake and become with child by the prophet; and she will in due course bear a son, named Astvat-ereta, 'He who embodies righteousness' (after Zoroaster's own words: 'May righteousness be embodied' Y 43. r6). Despite his miraculous conception, the coming World Saviour will thus be a man, born of human parents, and so there is no betrayal, in this development of belief in the Saoshyant, of Zoroaster's own teachings about the part which mankind has to play in the great cosmic struggle.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
"

Saved savior? Redeemed by cultic activity? What Bible translation are you reading?


Each savior demigod is different, what is similar is that they go through a passion, die and resurrect in 3 days., defeating death and allowing followers into the afterlife. The specifics in each religion will differ depending on the theology.



The basic features that emerged from Hellenism into surrounding religions are:


Hellenistic religion strove to regain their place in the world beyond this world where they truly belonged, to encounter the god beyond the god of this world who was the true god, and to awaken that part of themselves (their souls or spirits) that had descended from the heavenly realm by stripping off their bodies, which belonged to this world.


-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.


-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.


-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.


-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme



-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.


-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)


-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century


- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.


-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.


-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)


-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)


- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hellenistic-relig
 
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