Pastek
Sunni muslim
It's not a woman. What a weird question.
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Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night
- Thread starter dyanaprajna2011
- Start date
It's not a woman. What a weird question.
Nyingjé Tso
Dharma not drama
Vanakkam,
It's just my personal opinion, but I would think that a 8 y/o child is not a woman (> implying "ready to have any kind of intercourse") when she don't ask you explicitly that she have the desire to have your "big stick" in her, and I think that beyond that, any grown man can figure that a 8 y/o child is not a woman when he see that putting his "big stick" into a not mature too much tigh "opening" is provoking only pain, suffering, and in this case (and surely many others) death by precisely the kind of wounds that indicated that the actual opening wasn't mature and ready enough to receive a big stick.
There is no excuse about this man and nothing to say. She was 8 years old. She was physically not fit to receive a grown manhood in her, and she was not mentally able at this age to have any sexual tough or sexual desire. For this man, with the intentions he had toward her, she was not a woman to him but a sexual object and a toy.
It is utterly disgusting and this man will receive proper payback for what he did, in this life or in another, by man justice or cosmic law. It is a fact that when you saw suffering, you rip suffering. This man will one day receive the rotten fruits of his disgusting behaviors, and it will be justice for the poor soul he tortured to death.
It's just my personal opinion, but I would think that a 8 y/o child is not a woman (> implying "ready to have any kind of intercourse") when she don't ask you explicitly that she have the desire to have your "big stick" in her, and I think that beyond that, any grown man can figure that a 8 y/o child is not a woman when he see that putting his "big stick" into a not mature too much tigh "opening" is provoking only pain, suffering, and in this case (and surely many others) death by precisely the kind of wounds that indicated that the actual opening wasn't mature and ready enough to receive a big stick.
There is no excuse about this man and nothing to say. She was 8 years old. She was physically not fit to receive a grown manhood in her, and she was not mentally able at this age to have any sexual tough or sexual desire. For this man, with the intentions he had toward her, she was not a woman to him but a sexual object and a toy.
It is utterly disgusting and this man will receive proper payback for what he did, in this life or in another, by man justice or cosmic law. It is a fact that when you saw suffering, you rip suffering. This man will one day receive the rotten fruits of his disgusting behaviors, and it will be justice for the poor soul he tortured to death.
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dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
Neuro-psychological studies showing the under-developed brain in a child of that age.
illykitty
RF's pet cat
If you are implying reaching puberty, I have first hand experience with that. I was younger than most people when I reached mine and my body was NOT like that of an adult. It took me many years before it did.
Treks
Well-Known Member
Are you seriously saying you would offer up your very own 8 year old daughter to be penetrated by a fully grown man?
If so, I feel so sorry for your family.
If not, you have the answer to your own question.
Levite
Higher and Higher
You know a little girl of 8,9,10, or whatever is a child and not a woman because it's obvious.
I'm a teacher, and I've been around little girls of that age who were surprisingly physically developed for their age, some who were shockingly bright and emotionally mature for their age, and even a couple who were both. All were little kids-- precocious in some ways, maybe, but children. I've met young teenagers I thought were older than they were, but I've never met a single kid under the age of 16 or 17 that I really might have mistaken for a fully mature adult-- and even those were very rare.
There may be gray areas about readiness and maturity with kids who are 16, or even 15. There is no gray area for 8 or 9 year olds. I don't care how physically developed they may be, or how bright they may be. They're children, not adults. Nothing can change that. They are not ready for sex or marriage in any way, shape, or form.
Regardless of religion, society, or culture, there is no excuse for an adult trying to have sex with a little girl. You can dress it up however you like, and it will never be more than glorified pedophelia.
I'm a teacher, and I've been around little girls of that age who were surprisingly physically developed for their age, some who were shockingly bright and emotionally mature for their age, and even a couple who were both. All were little kids-- precocious in some ways, maybe, but children. I've met young teenagers I thought were older than they were, but I've never met a single kid under the age of 16 or 17 that I really might have mistaken for a fully mature adult-- and even those were very rare.
There may be gray areas about readiness and maturity with kids who are 16, or even 15. There is no gray area for 8 or 9 year olds. I don't care how physically developed they may be, or how bright they may be. They're children, not adults. Nothing can change that. They are not ready for sex or marriage in any way, shape, or form.
Regardless of religion, society, or culture, there is no excuse for an adult trying to have sex with a little girl. You can dress it up however you like, and it will never be more than glorified pedophelia.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I have a hunch that Muslims in the modern/civilized world have a hard time relating too. Much of this can be attritubed to the cultural reality in Yemen. I find it deplorable, but, this is likely a cultural norm. Marriage to young girls has been in existence in these parts of the world long before the new world was on the map. This isn't new to this culture.
I would think that Muslims existing in a modern/civilized society feel conflicted when they hear of news such as this, as I'm sure that these accounts disgust and sicken many of them too, particularly those with families. And then, they have to deal with the back lash and questioning as they're supposed to answer as to why people from different cultures and possibly different interpretations of their faith are doing these things.
I imagine it's tiring.
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Give me a break.
As mentioned before, Islam is a religion with very strict rules and a tight hold upon its adherents. If Islam wanted to make it clear that such a thing was strictly forbidden, and would be punished to the utmost degree, then I suspect that it wouldn't be so prevalent in Muslim-domintated cultures.
As for the completely ridiculous claim that "there is no relation to religion", I call ********. Islam supports a culture that is incredibly misogynistic. Many Muslims do believe they have the right and responsibility to subjugate woman, and to treat them however they see fit. Many Muslims also believe that they have the blessing of the Prophet for these young marriages and consummations, due to his example. I see that you do not believe that Aisha was as young as reported, and that's great. But it is a fact that many Muslims do believe that she was that young, and take this as a template of how they should behave.
Notice that you called this a crime. Yes, it is indeed a crime.
In Yemen, however, it is not. It is a common cultural practice. From the OP, nobody is prosecuting the man or the parents.
I doubt Dawkins was saying that this was "fine" and should be considered permissible; simply that he himself had no lasting injury from it, which could very well be the case. Different people react differently to various forms of abuse.
Regardless, I find it exceedingly offensive that you continually try to downplay what happened to this girl. She was raped in such a way that caused her uterus to rupture. She was not merely fondled. She did not spontaneously develop internal bleeding, as a previous post of yours implied. She was raped.
EDIT:
Oops. It was Assad91 who believes that Aisha was older, and made the flippant comment about this little girl dying due to internal bleeding, not FearGod.
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In 2010, Yemen passed a law setting the minimum age for marriage at 17
New Yemen Marriage Law Needs Awareness Campaigns- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online
I guess it was repealed as being "Unislamic."
New Yemen Marriage Law Needs Awareness Campaigns- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online
I guess it was repealed as being "Unislamic."
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I think the real focus should be on the culture, and the background that has justified such events. If we look at the Quran, this sort of act simply is not acceptable. First, it appeared to be a force marriage, which is against Islam. A woman has to be able to consent to such a marriage. Second, the woman has to be of an age of maturity. Some of translated this as meaning of puberty or what not, but that is a distortion. This act simply is not supported by Islam, and thus Islam should not be condemned for it. By doing such, only additional problems are created, and the source for such ideas is missed.
This is a cultural practice. It is not one based on religion. It also has to be remembered that religion is often used to justify practices that were already common, or have nothing to do with that religion. People like to hide behind things, and do so in order to justify their own personal ideas.
As for Ayesha, it is unlikely she was 6 or 9. In many eastern countries (actually in many countries before modern times), birthdays were not celebrated, there were no birth certificates, etc. Most had no idea how old they actually were, and thus often just made up ages. In fact, it continues today. More often than not, those ages were much younger than how old they truly were. So it could have been that Ayesha thought she was younger than she was. More so, Ayesha was already engaged before she met Muhammad, which again suggests she was quite a bit older.
This is a cultural practice. It is not one based on religion. It also has to be remembered that religion is often used to justify practices that were already common, or have nothing to do with that religion. People like to hide behind things, and do so in order to justify their own personal ideas.
As for Ayesha, it is unlikely she was 6 or 9. In many eastern countries (actually in many countries before modern times), birthdays were not celebrated, there were no birth certificates, etc. Most had no idea how old they actually were, and thus often just made up ages. In fact, it continues today. More often than not, those ages were much younger than how old they truly were. So it could have been that Ayesha thought she was younger than she was. More so, Ayesha was already engaged before she met Muhammad, which again suggests she was quite a bit older.
Is religion not part of a culture? And in particular, a religion such as Islam, which permeates and informs a culture?
Yes, culture is a major player. But this doesn't let religion off the hook. Both play a part.
Galen.Iksnudnard
Active Member
This.
When religion is used to legitimize culture, particularly if that culture is one rooted in patriarchy and oppression of women, then religion does have to shoulder some of the blame.
Here's the story about the top Yemeni clerics declaring those who support the ban on child marriage to be "apostates."In 2010, Yemen passed a law setting the minimum age for marriage at 17
New Yemen Marriage Law Needs Awareness Campaigns- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online
I guess it was repealed as being "Unislamic."
Top Yemeni clerics oppose ban on child brides - Boston.com
Assad91
Shi'ah Ali
At the time of puberty, one is considered not a child anymore and starts to understake the responsibilities of the religious obligations. But this in no way supports some stupid claim as to being allowed to marry your daughter off to a 50 year old man.
Ask these sheikhs who say it is okay, if they will give their daughters at age 8, to some elder man. My guess is they will slap you with their shoe.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think it's sad, that all though I think just about everyone here believes the man in question to be a *******, the debate has gotten stuck around the religion the man says he follows.
Who cares if he claims to worship Allah, Zeus, Thor, Satan, or even the Easter Bunny for all I care. Regardless of his personal deities, I could only imagine he is quite the ******* to keep doing that to a child who had to be clearly in distress.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Not true,it is not prevalent in Muslim-domintated cultures since it was present in every society all over our world.
In ancient and medieval societies, girls would be betrothed at or before puberty.[4][5] In Greece, early wedding and early motherhood for girls was encouraged.[6] Even boys were expected to marry before they reached the age of 18. With an average life expectancy for human beings between 40 to 45 years, around the world, early marriages and teenage motherhood was typical. In Ancient Rome, girls married above the age of 12 and boys above 14.[7] In the Middle Ages, under English civil laws that were derived from Roman laws, marriages before the age of 16 were common. In Imperial China, child marriage was the norm.[8][9]
Refeence : Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The prophet's first marriage was a woman older than him and she wasn't virgin,he loved her so much but the truth which all of us know very well that he had no much time for sex but most of his time was for wars against oppressors.
We know pedophiles prefer the bed and not the sword,the prophet changed one society from ignorance to the most powerful empire in the history compared to Europe at that point of time were living in full darkness.
Yes indeed what he did is a crime
The parent sold their daughter for money and selling their child for money is forbidden in Islam,the prophet said that we should ask about the man and his character before accepting him for marriage,but the parent IMHO are atheists,they love money more than their daughter,it is really disgusting.
Do you agree with him that no problem with mild pedophile which cause no harm such as the case with his teacher touching him and the other children in the class room.
i don't downplay the awful thing that happened to her but i insist that it has nothing to do with Islam.
FYI,the highest rate for child marriage is in Africa
According to UNICEF, Africa has the highest incidence rates of child marriage, with over 70% of girls marrying under the age of 18, in three nations.[2] However, one must note that this UNICEF report is based on data that is derived from a small sample survey between 1995 and 2004, and the current rate is unknown given lack of infrastructure and in some cases, regional violence.
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage
Child Sexual abuse in the USA;
- Child rape occurs every two minutes
- 1 in 3 girls will be sexually molested before the age 17
- 1 in 6 boys will be sexually molested before the age 17 (1 in 5 in Canada)
- A sex offender will molest an average of 120 victims, most of whom do not report it
- 90% of molesters abuse children they know
- Oftentimes, a sexually abused child is abused in other ways
- Every 10 seconds a child is abused or raped
- 3.3 million child abuse reports in 2010
- For every report 2 more go unreported = many millions abused annually
- 61,000 reports to Child Protective services per week = 6 per minute
- Of 1.5 million runaways 85% are fleeing some form of abuse
- Only 10% of abusers do not know their abuser well
- Abuse victims = about 48% male, 52% female
- Every race and religion sees child abuse
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
My guess is that child marriage is more about male dominance, poverty, ignorance and the devaluing of girls, than necessarily about Islam. People just use the fact that it is not specifically forbidden in Islam to justify raping children.
I recommend donating to charities with educational programmes against child marriage.
Edit: put your money where your mouth is
I recommend donating to charities with educational programmes against child marriage.
Edit: put your money where your mouth is
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Alceste
Vagabond
Are you out of your mind? I'm a teacher. I spend a lot of time with eight year old boys and girls. That's how I know they're children, I guess. An eight year old girl is not a woman, and if you think otherwise I'm genuinely concerned for the welfare of the children in your sphere of influence.
Poeticus
| abhyAvartin |
The Persians would go bonkers if people called them Paki or Arab.