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Yes, but how did it all get started in the first place?

footprints

Well-Known Member
Reproduction only has a specific meaning in science because some humans gave it that terminology then indoctrinated every educated person who followed that line with the same belief.

Inertia only has a specific meaning in science because some humans gave it that terminology then indoctrinated every educated person who followed that line with the same belief.

Gravity only has a specific meaning in science because some humans gave it that terminology then indoctrinated every educated person who followed that line with the same belief.

The Speed of Light only has a specific meaning in science because some humans gave it that terminology then indoctrinated every educated person who followed that line with the same belief.

_______ only has a specific meaning in science because some humans gave it that terminology then indoctrinated every educated person who followed that line with the same belief.

Fill in the blanks.....:facepalm:

By golly tumbleweed I think you are getting it, no wonder you hang your head in shame and cover your face.

A tree is only a tree because somebody once called it a tree. If that same person had called a tree an apple you would be calling a tree an apple now.

Life was a terminology coined to fit a specific pattern. Down some scientific disciplines bacteria is considered a life form but excludes a virus simple because a virus didn't fit the pattern they were trying to create.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
A tree is only a tree because somebody once called it a tree. If that same person had called a tree an apple you would be calling a tree an apple now.
It doesn't change the fundamental nature of a tree. Acer rubrum is still Acer rubrum no matter what an individual language may call it.

wa:do
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
It doesn't change the fundamental nature of a tree. Acer rubrum is still Acer rubrum no matter what an individual language may call it.

wa:do

You are right painted wolf what can I say. The same of course applies to life, it doesn't change because somebody wants to give it a narrow definition.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Your definition is so broad that even the dead are still alive. If there is no line between living and not living, then neither term matters.

wa:do
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Your definition is so broad that even the dead are still alive. If there is no line between living and not living, then neither term matters.

wa:do

Down some lines of theory the dead are still living just evolved to another state. Why we have ghosts, angels, spirits, different dimensions and different plains et al, I will not dismiss these as easily as some other people do either. As a species we really do not know everything.

Only when you stand back can you see the bigger picture and use the broader stroke.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Life was a terminology coined to fit a specific pattern. Down some scientific disciplines bacteria is considered a life form but excludes a virus simple because a virus didn't fit the pattern they were trying to create.
This is why it is so vitally important to define the terms that we use in conversations/debates like these. Words are the tools that we use. I agree that we must not allow the tools we use to express our thoughts to limit our thoughts (I think that is your point, but I can never be sure). But at the same time if we do not define our terms they cease to be useful tools, the cease to convey any useful information.

If we expand the definition of life to include things like rocks, atoms, solar systems etc then the word ceases to have any function in our conversations. For example, if someone says they found life on mars, do you think they might be referring to a rock?
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
careful, stand too far back and you fall of the edge.

wa:do

LOL I have fallen off many edges.

Stand too close and you become hypnotised.

The balance of course is where you can see clearly, yet still see the whole picture without it dropping out of sight, or too close where you only see a finite detail and miss the greater picture around it.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
fantôme profane;1829852 said:
This is why it is so vitally important to define the terms that we use in conversations/debates like these. Words are the tools that we use. I agree that we must not allow the tools we use to express our thoughts to limit our thoughts (I think that is your point, but I can never be sure). But at the same time if we do not define our terms they cease to be useful tools, the cease to convey any useful information.

If we expand the definition of life to include things like rocks, atoms, solar systems etc then the word ceases to have any function in our conversations. For example, if someone says they found life on mars, do you think they might be referring to a rock?

Hi fantome, although it is a quirk of the human mind to relate and associate to specific patterns, as in my use of evolve and another poster turning this to evolution and relating it then to a specific scientific discipline, in general terms the words surrounding the word give it the context to which it is intended. In another post I clearly stated the Big Bang theory and another poster in their own intelligence informed me that I was talking physics and not biology, what an amazing feat of human intelligence. I say science, some in their own mind read biology and all different sorts of things. This is normal human behaviour an all relates to normal human association patterns which causes people to jump to conclusions based on their own observations.

If we extend the use of any word to the full extent of its meaning, it may have little value to a person who wants to have only a narrow view, but it keeps its integrity for those who like a greater view. This is the beauty of life, it is also the terror of life, some people see only the narrow view and only ever from one perspective, others see the greater view and can often see it from different perspectives. Seeing things from different perspectives is the value in critical thinking albeit can often be at odds with narrow view thinking for they can only ever see one perspective.

Pertaining to Mars, many in this world would tell you Mars itself was evidence of life, others wouldn't relate or associate bacteria to life. All is part and parcel of the greater picture of human intelligence.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Down some lines of theory the dead are still living just evolved to another state. Why we have ghosts, angels, spirits, different dimensions and different plains et al, I will not dismiss these as easily as some other people do either. As a species we really do not know everything.

Only when you stand back can you see the bigger picture and use the broader stroke.

If the dead are still living there would be no need for a resurrection.

According to Scripture the spirit world of angels were created first followed by our material or physical world.

Jesus coming from the invisible spirit realm believed that when those in the physical world die that the dead are in a deep sleep-like state. John 11:11-14.

Jesus knew the old Hebrew Scriptures so Jesus would have known what the Psalmist wrote such as: 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance;
13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death; 115:17 the dead do Not praise God; 146:4 at death thoughts perish.

Jesus would have also been familiar with King Solomon's writings such as Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 that the dead know nothing.

Daniel (12:2) also knew the dead sleep in the dust of the ground until they are awakened. Awakened from death's sleep on resurrection morning during Jesus 1000-year day of ruling over the earth.
 

imaginaryme

Active Member
Yes I understand, you made a fool of yourself, jumping in not even knowing what the discussion was about, and it has to be me who was a donkey.:D
We're a pair of donkeys. :p
I don't make a fool of myself, I am a fool; I don't make myself into something I'm not. The original point of contention was what is life to science - answer is biology - your answer is physics, and you don't really care what anyone else may say.

So how can you say you understand science? You don't seem to even understand what you're talking about. Physics doesn't "begin" with atoms, it begins with a quark-gluon plasma; as a function of entropy. We don't touch atoms, we touch fields; the force carriers for fields are gluons. Begins with particle-field duality, ends with decoherence, and all may be a derivative of pure number.

Which you might know, if you knew the science; but you only know your own agenda... there must be a "god" in this somewhere. Is there a "god" in this somewhere?
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
If the dead are still living there would be no need for a resurrection.

According to Scripture the spirit world of angels were created first followed by our material or physical world.

Jesus coming from the invisible spirit realm believed that when those in the physical world die that the dead are in a deep sleep-like state. John 11:11-14.

Jesus knew the old Hebrew Scriptures so Jesus would have known what the Psalmist wrote such as: 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance;
13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death; 115:17 the dead do Not praise God; 146:4 at death thoughts perish.

Jesus would have also been familiar with King Solomon's writings such as Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 that the dead know nothing.

Daniel (12:2) also knew the dead sleep in the dust of the ground until they are awakened. Awakened from death's sleep on resurrection morning during Jesus 1000-year day of ruling over the earth.

Death is just a natural part of living.

Without being disrespectful to the Hebrew and Jew, Jesus believed they were wrong.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
We're a pair of donkeys. :p
I don't make a fool of myself, I am a fool; I don't make myself into something I'm not. The original point of contention was what is life to science - answer is biology - your answer is physics, and you don't really care what anyone else may say.

If you believe you are a psychic, let me assure you, you are not a good one. Biology is not the answer to what is life in science, neither is physics.

If I remember correctly I believe it was paleontology who coined the modern definition of life, albeit many fields have one.

When I say science I mean every field in science.

So how can you say you understand science? You don't seem to even understand what you're talking about. Physics doesn't "begin" with atoms, it begins with a quark-gluon plasma; as a function of entropy. We don't touch atoms, we touch fields; the force carriers for fields are gluons. Begins with particle-field duality, ends with decoherence, and all may be a derivative of pure number.

That is a theory, a probability which could lead to fact, it isn't a fact. And it is me who doesn't understand science, the whole process is still under investigation and being debated. We now have Black Stars being thrown into the equation.

Atoms, photons et al is a cliche' which suggests anything which you or anybody else cares to throw up, where did it come from. It is an imposibility by todays standards to have an effect without a cause, yet this is what most modern theories I have ever read or heard is asking me to believe, either that or something was created from nothing, another impossibility. Credibile scientist in this field will acknowledge that they build their premise on a power of suggestion for nobody not even you has this answer.

Which you might know, if you knew the science; but you only know your own agenda... there must be a "god" in this somewhere. Is there a "god" in this somewhere?

I have already told you you are not a good psychic, give it up. And if that is what your mind is telling you, don't trust anything your mind tells you, your belief patterns and emotions are impairing your judgement.

But interesting to see, is this how you usually try to dig yourself out of a hole you have dug for yourself?

About the only thing it does suggest as it pertains to science and religious beliefs, is at the beginning of each premise they are each asking you to believe in a miracle. The definition of Miracle as used in the previous context shall mean, something which is outside of our current knowledge base at this point in time.
 
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imaginaryme

Active Member
If you believe you are a psychic, let me assure you, you are not a good one. Biology is not the answer to what is life in science, neither is physics.
Clairvoyance, nay; chronology, yay!

If I remember correctly I believe it was paleontology who coined the modern definition of life, albeit many fields have one.

When I say science I mean every field in science.
Ain't science thread, is evolution thread. :p



That is a theory, a probability which could lead to fact, it isn't a fact. And it is me who doesn't understand science, the whole process is still under investigation and being debated. We now have Black Stars being thrown into the equation.
Black stars, quark stars, dark matter galaxies... next up, supersymmetry. But it ain't about fact, it's about postulate verifiable by observation and capable of making predictions. From what I understand about time travel :)D), it will never be likely to be verifiable "where it all came from." On a personal level, it is not even entirely verifiable that I am a nut from the family pecan tree. I don't "remember" being born, those people ain't got nothing to do with me. It's all hypothesis and conjecture, but I'm pecking away at these plastic keys anyway... maybe.:D

Atoms, photons et al is a cliche' which suggests anything which you or anybody else cares to throw up, where did it come from. It is an imposibility by todays standards to have an effect without a cause, yet this is what most modern theories I have ever read or heard is asking me to believe, either that or something was created from nothing, another impossibility. Credibile scientist in this field will acknowledge that they build their premise on a power of suggestion for nobody not even you has this answer.
Causality is a nest of snakes. It has been argued elsewhere that "cause and effect" are just arbitrary labels for occurrence. It has been shown in experimentation that response to stimuli can "respond before stimuli" - nest of snakes, I say - but it is true that the cosmological models arising from causality trace entropy "back to the beginning" as it were. But I don't agree with your conclusions, that they are asking you to believe in nonsense. What the models do trace back to is perhaps a period in time where the "heat of creation" as it were was so - well, hot - that a veil was formed. The quark-plasma soup was opaque to radiation, meaning anything happening "inside" was prevented from propagating outward. I've never seen "beginning from nothing" mentioned in the literature beyond the official RCC website. It's cosmic vibration, quantum fluctuation, or cyclic a la Hawking et al. Or, my old line - in the beginning, there was uncertainty; somethings never change. :D



I have already told you you are not a good psychic, give it up. And if that is what your mind is telling you, don't trust anything your mind tells you, your belief patterns and emotions are impairing your judgement.

But interesting to see, is this how you usually try to dig yourself out of a hole you have dug for yourself?

About the only thing it does suggest as it pertains to science and religious beliefs, is at the beginning of each premise they are each asking you to believe in a miracle. The definition of Miracle as used in the previous context shall mean, something which is outside of our current knowledge base at this point in time.
Of course, I am psychically projecting incompetence - and you are falling into my web of delusion! Muah-ha-ha-ha-ha... :devil:

Nah, don't do clairvoyance. I am my own hypothesis. By running my neck, considering thought inward and forming conception outward; in this manner I pave the road of subjective reality forward. If it does veer off into the wilderness, by speaking of it thusly I get an idea where not to go in the future.

And every day is a miracle. I rise from the death of sleep to be the fool again! :D
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
By golly tumbleweed I think you are getting it, no wonder you hang your head in shame and cover your face.
You're so clever:sarcastic

A tree is only a tree because somebody once called it a tree. If that same person had called a tree an apple you would be calling a tree an apple now.
Yet that would not change the actual character of the tree.

Life was a terminology coined to fit a specific pattern. Down some scientific disciplines bacteria is considered a life form but excludes a virus simple because a virus didn't fit the pattern they were trying to create.
Yes, it is a vast conspiracy by biologist to exclude viruses, minerals and ghosts from "life".
 
You are jesting again right? LOL it is happening here because you are doing it.

I'm talking about you giving cop-out arguments, which has nothing to do with how I'm responding to you. Notice when I respond, I try to give an answer to the best of my abilities, whereas you sometimes give a cop-out answer.

Ah Malleus, the argument is in the books, most credible scientist are objective, they actually tell you when they use a power of suggestion. It is generally only people in debate forums like this who do not understand this and count the power of suggestion as fact.

What in the hell are you babbling about? You gave evidence but no argument. The argument may be in the books so instead of me reading through the books which would have thousands of arguments, finding the right pages and so forth, why don't you merely provide it here? It's a simple thing, very simple. Why don't you want to provide the argument? You have the evidence already and I'm willing to hear the argument.

You do amuse me Malleus. If you cannot observe as simple statement correctly, you cannot possible observe anything else correctly and why you have missed the objectivity in the books you said you have read. This is what prejudice and bias (beliefs) does to a human brain.

Your statement was "LOL", so explain how am I to observe it correctly? If you're counting, I've given the name and title of 2 books I've read and the other books I haven't given the names, titles, subjects, etc... . For you to conclude I haven't understood the objectivity in all those other books is laughable as the books are diverse. If you're going to insult me, then at least give an attempt to make it a plausible one that you can support. If you want to support your statement, then tell me how I've missed the objectivity in each book without knowing a single thing about the books I'm mentioning. Exactly, you cant.

As for the biases, we all have them, so what are you trying to show by that statement?

I doubt it Malleus, your faith of belief will stop this from happening.

HAHAHA. I complimented you and you return with an insult! I said "first intelligent response" and part of your response is "I doubt it". Are you being honest or did you just misread what I wrote?

I didn't dance away from the question, I told you where to find the answers. What is a cop out is you not wanting to put in the hard work to gain any knowledge.

You said creationism is scientifically possible and I've thought about it but don't understand. I ask you for clarification and you still don't provide any. So, I'll ask again, how is creationism scientifically possible?
 

imaginaryme

Active Member
How is "first intelligent response" a complement? More importantly, how is creationism "scientifically possible?" Inquiring minds wanna know! :D
 
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