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Yes, but how did it all get started in the first place?

Science and religion is only different to you because of your bias. Religion changes its stance often based on new observations from science, please give me a break, have you ever heard of ID.

That wasn't my point. My point was that by itself, religion doesn't change but science does. When you begin to consider other factors, then yes religion does change but that wasn't my stance.

Please stick to reality and not perceptions in your head.

You know, you keep saying this not only to me but to so many other people on here also. While we all have our perceptions, the way you keep saying it almost suggests you're free of it. We all have our perceptions, you included so if I am to somehow remove these, then the same goes for you, it's a two-sided argument.

I never said science did support the notion of a magic wand. Albeit I might have said that anybody who tells me I am wrong as it pertains to the power of suggestion behind the cause of the universe at this point in time believes in magic wand stuff, and is no different to hard line theist at this point of time in our knowledge, for it is unknown. And I have also previously given my interpretation to this unknown knowledge, please read and keep up with the debate so I do not have to deal with this perceptional garbage.

I'm aware of your interpretation of the unknown knowledge because if you remember, you and I had a brief debate about it.

There are missing links Malleus, and nothing you or anybody can do or say at this point in time will change this. Telling me I am wrong about this, only shows their own ignorance. Albeit many will cling to Blind Faith of Beliefs where scientific theory is concerned.

I'm not saying missing links don't exist, I said they do exist, hence you and I are in agreement yet for some unusual reason, now both of us are debating about it so let's stop that.

Religious people also tell me that finding evidence is a tedious task.

It depends on what one considers evidence as.

Most scientists are trying to prove The Theory of Evolution, so it sets their prejudice to this bias. Of the scientists who do come up with theories against it, what can I say, majority rules. Albeit again from science just like probability, we also know the majority isn't always right.

Unfortunately, this is true. Majority does rule even when majority is wrong and in this respect, science can sometimes be dogmatic.

You do not have to explain statistical analysis and probability to me, albeit there are a few (scientific) posters who could use your help in understanding this process.

I explained it for the very reason that when you claim to be educated in science but then use a fundamental premise of science in order to refute science by pointing out a flaw that science already accepts, then that suggests one may not entirely understand it. That is why I mentioned the statistical analysis, I didn't mention it to teach you about statistical analysis because I know that there are a bunch of posters here who can run circles around me about this and so I'd be an arrogant fool to suppose I could do what they can.

I already know, I am an unreasoned thinker. This gives me a head start on everybody else if you choose only to accept the unreasoned thinker part of the quoted passage and competely ignore the reasoned part. Which isn't very logical, reasonable or rational, now is it?

If you accept that you are an unreasoned thinker and are ahead in the game, then why do you continue to use debate tactics such as the one you provided in your response to me regarding my perception and biases? Such debate tactics take you one step backwards.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Nothing can only create nothing, before the universe began something must have always existed.
"Its ENERGY.ENERGY is eternal, the first law of thermodynamics confirms that it cant be created nor destroyed. No beginning or uncreated that is the defenition eternal. Youc ant claim that this energy always existed in the known universe, because science has proven that the unicverse didnt always exist. "The universe and time didnt always exist" by Stephen Hawking.This energy source that was present before the univers had to have power beyond anything we can begin to imagine, considering it had to transfer enrgy into trillions of stars and billions of galaxies. A seperate eternal enegy source that exists outside the universe had to hve transferred its energy on the universe(because we know the univers didnt always exist).
Its not unreasonable to think this enormous energy source was god.We have two options to determine what this powerful and eternel existing energy is.It could be a dumb unconcious or vagure energy source. However this is completely illogical as we can observe complexity, order and design in the universe. The most logical answer would be that an intelligent mind constructed the universe(god almighty)....simple^_^

While you are reading Steven Hawking, you may want to immerse yourself deeper into the actual physics we are dealing with.

Saying 'God did it' is not "simple" as it attempts to take into account supernatural beginnings of a natural universe.

Professor Hawking is correct in saying the Universe and Time did not always exist. Hubble introduced the 'Big Bang' (a misnomer, no BANG was involved) in which the Universe started as a dense singularity in which the potential for space, time, and mass was condensed. Including the natural laws of the Universe. These Laws affect only that which is within the singularity/universe. The origin of the singularity is pure speculation since space, time and our physical laws exist only within the singularity.
One cannot simply say "It took great amounts of energy to create the universe", since the principals outside the singularity are unknown.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
That wasn't my point. My point was that by itself, religion doesn't change but science does. When you begin to consider other factors, then yes religion does change but that wasn't my stance.

Of course it wasn't your point Malleus, that would have blown your whole perceptional viewpoint.


You know, you keep saying this not only to me but to so many other people on here also. While we all have our perceptions, the way you keep saying it almost suggests you're free of it. We all have our perceptions, you included so if I am to somehow remove these, then the same goes for you, it's a two-sided argument.

Malleus, that you even conceive that I do not carry human perceptions is a perception in itself. You relate and associate to it like that because you carry this perception that you think I oppose you.

I'm aware of your interpretation of the unknown knowledge because if you remember, you and I had a brief debate about it.

Then why would you raise the same point again, the unknown, the supernatural, is nothing more than things we do not have knowledge on yet.

I'm not saying missing links don't exist, I said they do exist, hence you and I are in agreement yet for some unusual reason, now both of us are debating about it so let's stop that.

Missing links pertain in both science and religious theories and opinions. To condemn one is to condemn the other.

It depends on what one considers evidence as.

I would suggest empirical evidence, albeit each to their own view where human intelligence is concerned.

Unfortunately, this is true. Majority does rule even when majority is wrong and in this respect, science can sometimes be dogmatic.

I can only agree, science can be dogmatic at times, it is the human nature in it. Generally it is only lay people who cannot see, or do not see the dogma in science and believe it only exists in the religious.

I explained it for the very reason that when you claim to be educated in science but then use a fundamental premise of science in order to refute science by pointing out a flaw that science already accepts, then that suggests one may not entirely understand it. That is why I mentioned the statistical analysis, I didn't mention it to teach you about statistical analysis because I know that there are a bunch of posters here who can run circles around me about this and so I'd be an arrogant fool to suppose I could do what they can.

My education in science comes from a different field, albeit one that connects all scientific fields together and shows the flaws in observation and the acceptance of power of suggestions as fact.

Science accepts its limitations, as do credible scientists within the field of science.


If you accept that you are an unreasoned thinker and are ahead in the game, then why do you continue to use debate tactics such as the one you provided in your response to me regarding my perception and biases? Such debate tactics take you one step backwards.

Only when a person knows they know nothing, can they begin to learn. That you see it as a debate tactic, is your perception of the events.

Human perception is one of, if not the most, powerful elements on earth. No person is immune to it, not me, not you, not anybody. It doesn't just go away because we adopt and use scientific method. Scientific method is unbiased and without prejudice, albeit it is put straight back in via the theories, evaluations, power of suggestions and even conclusions humans derive from it.

However unfortunate it is at this point in time, even my own chosen field of science doesn't have a direct answer to the perception problem, albeit many perceptions abound as we continually attack a symptom and not a root cause. This is futher compounded by the fact that religions do have an answer to fix the perception problem, which science is just starting to evaluate now.
 
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footprints

Well-Known Member
Since you are soooooo knowledgable about science you surely can give me a link to the scientific theory or law that claims that we came out of nothing.

LOL you are supposed to work that out from your own intelligence, it is the power of suggestion that the premise (theory) is derived from. It is unknown to us, there can be no scientific theory or law pertaining to it at this point in time.
 
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APW

Member
Good Evening:
Hi, Al here... I am new to the forum.
The question at the beginning of this thread was:

A lot of people say 'Hey, I know that evolution happens, cos look at fruit flies or viruses etc...'or 'look at the fossil record.' Never mind all that. How did it all get going in the first place? It is mathematically impossible. As that's the case, the case for evolution is pretty much closed isn't it?

Evolution does happen. Even with our grossly incomplete understanding of the fossil pages laid down in the layers of the earth’s crust, we can see the progression of species over time. We can even trace portions of our own human ancestry.

But I do not believe that evolution was an accident.
Al
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
LOL you are supposed to work that out from your own intelligence, it is the power of suggestion that the premise (theory) is derived from. It is unknown to us, there can be no scientific theory or law pertaining to it at this point in time.

Ok, so we have established that you talked nonsense yes?
There is no law or theory stating that we came out of nothing, so "science" doesn't actually state it.
Thank you.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
LOL you are supposed to work that out from your own intelligence, it is the power of suggestion that the premise (theory) is derived from. It is unknown to us, there can be no scientific theory or law pertaining to it at this point in time.

That is what I thought you would say....:rolleyes:
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
That is what I thought you would say....:rolleyes:



Why wouldn't I say it tumbleweed, it just happens to be truth, credible scientists will tell you this, it just isn't part of their theory because they have no way of explaining it at this point in time.:rolleyes:

Lay people of course, particularly google experts, will never see this of course, they use power of suggestion as absolute fact and gospel. They believe in Blind Faith, the Unkown, is known (Talk about a God Delusion). LOL.
 
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