Twig pentagram
High Priest
It's been two thousand years and still no messiah. Will christians and muslims ever wake up and smell the coffee? Yeshua is not coming back from the dead. The sooner you realize this the better off you'll be.
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Yeshua is not coming back.
- Thread starter Twig pentagram
- Start date
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Of course he isn't. The return Jesus spoke of isn't literal, it's spiritual, within. Jesus has of course been dead 2000 years.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
It was Jesus who created Primordal man, so the first time he stayed away millions of years before he came.
Were in this for the long run, or were just in it for nothing.
You simply have chosen the nothing. I don't blame you, often I feel like its nothing myself.
Peace.
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
What is the order of future events as indicated by Biblical prophesy? I have read or heard that it is (1) the rapture of the believers, followed by (2) the emergence of the Antichrist, followed lastly by (3) the return of Christ. Is this correct?
The reason I ask is because if that sequence of events is accurate, then the world still hasn't seen the rapture or the Antichrist yet, right? So, we still got a way to go before Jesus returns.
Of course, maybe the rapture did take place and there were just so few true Christians that we didn't even notice them missing. Come to think of it, I should probably call my grandmother; I haven't heard from her in awhile . . . hmmmmm?
The reason I ask is because if that sequence of events is accurate, then the world still hasn't seen the rapture or the Antichrist yet, right? So, we still got a way to go before Jesus returns.
Of course, maybe the rapture did take place and there were just so few true Christians that we didn't even notice them missing. Come to think of it, I should probably call my grandmother; I haven't heard from her in awhile . . . hmmmmm?
no-body
Well-Known Member
All or nothing thinking is dangerous. You are basically saying you need a crutch because the alternative is a meaningless void. Well at least you are honest just don't try making everyone else live in your fiction. Some of us would rather think logically and see the beauty of reality. The universe is gray not black and white.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I never try to make people do anything, or believe anything.
Either we all need something, or we all really need nothing. I see no other alternatives.
Peace.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Actually, I would say that they were talking about him literally coming back. He was considered the Son of Man, a title referring to the individual who would judge those in the Kingdom of God. Being such, he had to literally return.
On a side note, by the Christian belief, Jesus would not be coming back from the dead. He's already done that. According to Christianity, he is very much alive in heaven. So he wouldn't be returning from the dead after 2000 years, he's simply returning from heaven.
Twig pentagram
High Priest
I do not choose Yeshua. That does'nt mean that I've chosen nothing.
Runlikethewind
Monk in Training
Gee thanks. If only you had come along sooner I wouldn't have wasted my life waiting...
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Well then allow me to use your same reasoning;
When are people like you going to understand that if there is no God, then nothingelse really matters.
Were going to kill ourselves and ruin this earth. And you have bought that this is the destiny of humanity.
Peace.
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I don't understand this statement. Would you mind clarifying?
Are you saying that everything is meaningless without a deity to worship, including our individual choices and our human actions?
Because if that is what you are saying, I respectfully disagree. I daresay the victims of cruelty, prejudice, injustice and hatred don't believe human actions are meaningless when they find themselves suffering due to the wickedness of others.
To a starving child who has had poverty forced upon them by a dead-beat Dad, human actions certainly matter.
If I understand your statement correctly, then it seems to me you are completely wrong and the exact opposite is true: I don't think it really matters at all whether or not God exists; what matters is how we treat one another. That is what really means something.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I don't care what examples you bring up, humans will never be a good example of humanity. I am saying that if God does not exist, then our existence is meaningless. I know and understand mine is. The only chance I have for real meaning, is the God I do not know. Nothingelse has given me meaning. Family, jobs, women, you name it, I have had it all, and none of it means anything in the end.
It does not matter how you treat others, I have treaded others good all of my life, and it has not mattered. Evil will prevail in humanity and have its way, and only a God can stop it.
Peace.
DeitySlayer
President of Chindia
Actually, Mickiel, the vast majority of oil and mineral extraction companies, the vast majority of governments sanctioning deforestation (Indonesia/Brazil), the vast majority of people who are contributing to this environmental desecration are theists. The arguments that are threatening war in the Middle East are rooted in religion.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Wellthats why I believe Religion and Atheism to be the biggest threats to humanity that I know of. What the Theist are not desecrating, the Atheist are.
Peace.
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I daresay it has mattered to them. Though they may never even acknowledge it, I daresay that people are thankful you treated them kindly instead of treating them cruely.
I think, however, that we may be talking about two different concepts born from two different perspectives.
I am not saying there is any ultimate meaning to life. Of course, I am not necessarily saying there isn't any meaning either. Perhaps there is no ultimate, spiritual meaning in our actions, but that doesn't make them meaningless altogether.
If a person kills his neighbor without just cause, then the murderer's actions will certainly mean something to the victim's family and friends.
I suppose my point is this, human actions most certainly have meaning regardless of whether or not God exists. Human actions are given meaning by the people who are impacted by those actions, whether they be for good or ill. They are also given meaning by those who are charged with maintaining social order. For example, try committing a felony offense before several witnesses, then as a defense before the Court, try getting the Judge to buy the argument that your actions didn't mean anything because God doesn't exist.
RiverSeed
Plodding Along
Well, I don't speak for the absolute truthfullness of my beliefs. I have tried to give an accurate description of soto zazen before: Zazen is the awareness of breath.
When I am aware of my breath, the universe is my breath. You could say that when I am aware of a flower, the universe is that flower. Mickiel said that there is either a god or that the universe is nothing, and all is destroyed.
I won't tell him he is wrong, but I find that a sad way of viewing things. In soto zen, one could think of god and nothing as the same and complete. There is a saying: Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. Emptiness is just form, and form is just emptiness.
This means that, in a manner, the god-head is the very ordinary of life. This is why we find Zazen by just sitting. By just doing. When we are doing nothing, we are already doing something. It may not help very much, mickiel. But I hope it does.
When I am aware of my breath, the universe is my breath. You could say that when I am aware of a flower, the universe is that flower. Mickiel said that there is either a god or that the universe is nothing, and all is destroyed.
I won't tell him he is wrong, but I find that a sad way of viewing things. In soto zen, one could think of god and nothing as the same and complete. There is a saying: Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. Emptiness is just form, and form is just emptiness.
This means that, in a manner, the god-head is the very ordinary of life. This is why we find Zazen by just sitting. By just doing. When we are doing nothing, we are already doing something. It may not help very much, mickiel. But I hope it does.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
we find this nothingness in christianity too....
I came into the unknown
and stayed there unknowing
rising beyond all science.
I did not know the door
but when I found the way,
unknowing where I was,
I learned enormous things,
but what I felt I cannot say,
for I remained unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
It was the perfect realm
of holiness and peace.
In deepest solitude
I found the narrow way:
a secret giving such release
that I was stunned and stammering,
rising beyond all science.
I was so far inside,
so dazed and far away
my senses were released
from feelings of my own.
My mind had found a surer way:
a knowledge of unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
And he who does arrive
collapses as in sleep,
for all he knew before
now seems a lowly thing,
and so his knowledge grows so deep
that he remains unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
The higher he ascends
the darker is the wood;
it is the shadowy cloud
that clarified the night,
and so the one who understood
remains always unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
This knowledge by unknowing
is such a soaring force
that scholars argue long
but never leave the ground.
Their knowledge always fails the source:
to understand unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
This knowledge is supreme
crossing a blazing height;
though formal reason tries
it crumbles in the dark,
but one who would control the night
by knowledge of unknowing
will rise beyond all science.
And if you wish to hear:
the highest science leads
to an ecstatic feeling
of the most holy Being;
and from his mercy comes his deed:
to let us stay unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
--John of the Cross (16th century)
I came into the unknown
and stayed there unknowing
rising beyond all science.
I did not know the door
but when I found the way,
unknowing where I was,
I learned enormous things,
but what I felt I cannot say,
for I remained unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
It was the perfect realm
of holiness and peace.
In deepest solitude
I found the narrow way:
a secret giving such release
that I was stunned and stammering,
rising beyond all science.
I was so far inside,
so dazed and far away
my senses were released
from feelings of my own.
My mind had found a surer way:
a knowledge of unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
And he who does arrive
collapses as in sleep,
for all he knew before
now seems a lowly thing,
and so his knowledge grows so deep
that he remains unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
The higher he ascends
the darker is the wood;
it is the shadowy cloud
that clarified the night,
and so the one who understood
remains always unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
This knowledge by unknowing
is such a soaring force
that scholars argue long
but never leave the ground.
Their knowledge always fails the source:
to understand unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
This knowledge is supreme
crossing a blazing height;
though formal reason tries
it crumbles in the dark,
but one who would control the night
by knowledge of unknowing
will rise beyond all science.
And if you wish to hear:
the highest science leads
to an ecstatic feeling
of the most holy Being;
and from his mercy comes his deed:
to let us stay unknowing,
rising beyond all science.
--John of the Cross (16th century)
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth, standing out of the water and in the water, whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:3-9