• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Yeshua / Jesus Vs Saul / Paul Points

Berserk

Member
Wizanda, I have 2 questions for you: (1) The most interesting thing about your list of points is the ease with which your simplistically selected prooftexts can be identified. But I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. Are you willing to make yourself vulnerable enough to actually list them by chapter and verse? You don't need to type quotations; just list references. (2) If it could be demonstrated that most of your items are misinformed, oversimplified, or too vague and imprecise to be meaningful, would you even want to know that? I'm trying to determine whether you or your readers would appreciate a point by point refutation of the majority of your points.

I'm a retired religious studies professor, but I'm only interested in edifying discourse with open-minded people who want to learn. I wouldn't want to highjack your thread. But I could start a new thread, listing all your points and addressing them in detail one at a time. Would you want that? Would your readers want that?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Are you willing to make yourself vulnerable enough to actually list them by chapter and verse?
Yes willing to debate each point, else wouldn't have made a claim globally that these are contradictions....

Yet i don't make myself vulnerable tho, and am open to correction if it can be shown categorically wrong; which after 12 years of trying, I've only ever heard weak arguments to try to over turn them.
would you even want to know that?
So yes by all means, this thread is for debating each point, and by all means show them wrong.

Not sure when i will get around to making a list of each chapter and verse, as they're not as simple as that, we can not debate someones whole theology, by taking one line out of a whole context.
Would you want that? Would your readers want that?
I do, and this is a debate forum, so i think people who are interested would learn from the dialogue....

So choose one where you think you can show it to be contrary, and we can debate it. :innocent:
 

Berserk

Member
OK, wizanda, I think it best to wait for you to document your claims. That effort might help you gain greater clarity and I want you to be at your best in your articulation. When you repost your list with documentation appended (e.g chapter and verse; rabbinic source), I will start a new thread, addressing (1)-(36) point by point
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Now assuming we just take all the letters of Paul to be his, even though they're clearly not...

Hebrews 1:6 When he again brings in the firstborn into the world he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.”

So because Paul deifies jesus, and follows on from Simon's ideas of calling him Lord and Savoir, he becomes an object of worship, justified by the text.

Not a bad idea, and have thought about it; yet even on this topic, we can't always define Paul's theology in one verse.

You need a good moral compass to understand his words, and a heart that is in the right place, as you'll never see how it interlinks with the prophets, unless you're like a child. :innocent:

Wizanda, I'm not quite back to normal, but I thought I'd try to start.....you might find this interesting, regarding Titus 2:13:


Titus 2:13—Gr., τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
(tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ Khri·stouʹ I·e·souʹ)

Here we see there are two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second one without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2 Peter 1:1-2; notice verse 2, where a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. (Both accounts written in Greek.) This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person (noun) is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person (noun). Examples of this construction in the Greek text are seen at Acts 13:50; 15:22; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 6:13; 2 Timothy 4:1. This construction is also found in the LXX, at Proverbs 24:21. According to "An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek", by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·neʹ] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”

In "The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays", by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457, a detailed study of the construction in Titus 2:13 is discussed. On p. 452, the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·lounʹtas kai a·go·raʹzon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Titus 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·teʹros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·monʹ] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he doʹxa tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to so·teʹros he·monʹ] changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·osʹ], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·taʹ ten khaʹrin tou The·ouʹ he·monʹ kai ky·riʹou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to ky·riʹou] makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”

Because of these factors, many translations thruout the years have rendered Titus 2:13 to read as following ---

1719 “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ”
The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ, by Cornelius Nary.

1729 “of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ”
The New Testament in Greek and English, by Daniel Mace,
London.

1808 “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ”
The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the
Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation, London.

1840 “of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ”
The New Testament Translated From the Text of
J. J. Griesbach, by Samuel Sharpe, London.

1869 “of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ”
The New Testament: Translated From the Greek
Text of Tischendorf, by George R. Noyes, Boston.

1934 “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”
The Riverside New Testament, Boston and New York.

1935 “of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus”
A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York and London.

1950 “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”
New World Translation of the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.

1957 “of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ”
La Sainte Bible, by Louis Segond, Paris.
[Translated from French]

1970 “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”
The New American Bible, New York and London.

1972 “of the great God and of Christ Jesus our saviour”
The New Testament in Modern English,
by J. B. Phillips, New York.

As for Hebrews 1, where the Angels are said to 'worship' Jesus.....the word is "proskyneo ". That same Greek word is used in the LXX, where Abraham "bowed down to" the sons of Heth! Was Abraham worshipping them? Of course not! He was simply honoring them.

In context with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 & 1 Corinthians 11:3, it's obvious how those texts are meant!

Furthermore, how could he write 1 Corinthians 11:1 in any sincerity, if he was really teaching different ideas?

We have to take in all context, if we want to understand things accurately.

Take care.
 
Last edited:

First Baseman

Retired athlete
The fact that a person would honestly think that Paul wasn't an Apostle of Christ is astonishing for an educated person. Paul depended upon Christ for everything. For you to try to say they taught different things is ludicrous, heinous and downright heretical.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The fact that a person would honestly think that Paul wasn't an Apostle of Christ is astonishing for an educated person.
In the excellent book Christ or Paul?, the Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore wrote:
"Let the reader contrast the true Christian standard with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal of all that the Master taught....For the surest way to betray a great Teacher is to misrepresent his message....That is what Paul and his followers did, and because the Church has followed Paul in his error it has failed lamentably to redeem the world....The teachings given by the blessed Master Christ, which the disciples John and Peter and James, the brother of the Master, tried in vain to defend and preserve intact were as utterly opposed to the Pauline Gospel as the light is opposed to the darkness."

The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals, echoes the above sentiment:
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

The brilliant theologian Ernest Renan, in his book Saint Paul, wrote:
"True Christianity, which will last forever, comes from the gospel words of Christ not from the epistles of Paul. The writings of Paul have been a danger and a hidden rock. the causes of the principal defects of Christian theology."

Albert Schweitzer, winner of the 1952 Nobel Peace Prize, has been called "one of the greatest Christians of his time." He was a philosopher, physician, musician, clergyman, missionary, and theologian. In his The Quest for the Historical Jesus and his Mysticism of Paul he writes:
"Paul....did not desire to know Christ....Paul shows us with what complete indifference the earthly life of Jesus was regarded....What is the significance for our faith and for our religious life, the fact that the Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel of Jesus?....The attitude which Paul himself takes up towards the Gospel of Jesus is that he does not repeat it in the words of Jesus, and does not appeal to its authority....The fateful thing is that the Greek, the Catholic, and the Protestant theologies all contain the Gospel of Paul in a form which does not continue the Gospel of Jesus, but displaces it."

William Wrede, in his excellent book Paul, informs us:
"The oblivious contradictions in the three accounts given by Paul in regard to his conversion are enough to arouse distrust....The moral majesty of Jesus, his purity and piety, his ministry among his people, his manner as a prophet, the whole concrete ethical-religious content of his earthly life, signifies for Paul's Christology nothing whatever....The name 'disciple of Jesus' has little applicability to Paul....Jesus or Paul: this alternative characterizes, at least in part, the religious and theological warfare of the present day"

Rudolf Bultman, one of the most respected theologians of this century, wrote in his Significance of the Historical Jesus for the Theology of Paul:
"It is most obvious that Paul does not appeal to the words of the Lord in support of his....views. when the essentially Pauline conceptions are considered, it is clear that Paul is not dependent on Jesus. Jesus' teaching is -- to all intents and purposes -- irrelevant for Paul."

Walter Bauer, another eminent theologian, wrote in his Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity:
"If one may be allowed to speak rather pointedly the Apostle Paul was the only Arch-Heretic known to the apostolic age."

George Bernard Shaw, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1925; in his Androcles and the Lion, we read:
"There is not one word of Pauline Christianity in the characteristic utterances of Jesus....There has really never been a more monstrous imposition perpetrated than the imposition of Paul's soul upon the soul of Jesus....It is now easy to understand how the Christianity of Jesus....was suppressed by the police and the Church, while Paulinism overran the whole western civilized world, which was at that time the Roman Empire, and was adopted by it as its official faith."

Will Durant; in his Caesar and Christ, he wrote:
"Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ....Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known....Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."

Martin Buber, the most respected Jewish philosopher of this century, wrote in Two Types of Faith:
"The Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount is completely opposed to Paul"

In one of the best books on early Christianity, Those Incredible Christians, Dr. High Schonfield reports:
"It was not only the teaching and activities of Paul which made him obnoxious to the Christian leaders: but their awareness that he set his revelations above their authority and claimed an intimacy with the mind of Jesus, greater than that of those who had companied with him on earth and had been chosen by him....It was an abomination, especially as his ideas were so contrary to what they knew of Jesus, that he should pose as the embodiment of the Messiah 's will....Paul was seen as the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah....For the legitimate Church, Paul was a dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem. Paul had been the enemy from the beginning. and because he failed in his former open hostility he had craftily insinuated himself into the fold to destroy it from within."
:innocent:
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
In the excellent book Christ or Paul?, the Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore wrote:

The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals, echoes the above sentiment:

The brilliant theologian Ernest Renan, in his book Saint Paul, wrote:

Albert Schweitzer, winner of the 1952 Nobel Peace Prize, has been called "one of the greatest Christians of his time." He was a philosopher, physician, musician, clergyman, missionary, and theologian. In his The Quest for the Historical Jesus and his Mysticism of Paul he writes:

William Wrede, in his excellent book Paul, informs us:

Rudolf Bultman, one of the most respected theologians of this century, wrote in his Significance of the Historical Jesus for the Theology of Paul:

Walter Bauer, another eminent theologian, wrote in his Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity:

George Bernard Shaw, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1925; in his Androcles and the Lion, we read:

Will Durant; in his Caesar and Christ, he wrote:

Martin Buber, the most respected Jewish philosopher of this century, wrote in Two Types of Faith:

In one of the best books on early Christianity, Those Incredible Christians, Dr. High Schonfield reports:
:innocent:

Wizanda, you are certainly a well-read individual.

I'm glad you've brought these viewpoints to my attention. There are quite a few that seem to agree that the Pauline Epistles present a different theology than what Christ taught. But I need to see Scriptures from these scholars, where they substantiate what they aver.

And this Hugh Schonfield.....is he for real?! Stating that Paul's teachings were "obnoxious to the Christian leaders"?
I figure he's referring to Paul's contemporaries. I'm sorry, but Mr. Schonfield needs to read the Scriptures, then give his viewpoint! At 2 Peter 3:15-16, Peter calls Paul, "our beloved brother", and attributing Paul's writings to "the wisdom given him." Never said or even implied it was Paul's own ideas. Doesn't sound that they viewed Paul as obnoxious, at all!

So, again, I'm sorry, but this is bullocks!

This simply impresses on me, you need God's (the Father's) spirit to properly understand the Scriptures, not worldly learning. Keep in mind, Jesus chose men who were fishermen, mostly "men unlettered and ordinary", to lead His disciples, not the erudite.

You take care.
 
Last edited:

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Christianity was established by Paul and Simon in Antioch; the early church of James, was Ebionite, and they were against Paul.....As Yeshua said to Simon, satan has use for you. :innocent:

Have a look on Google, there are lists across the web. ;)
It was Barnabas and Paul in Antioch.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1-29 confirms that, although at times there were disagreements, they reached consensus.
They 'spoke in agreement." -- 1 Corinthians 1:10, Paul's words, btw. He didn't cause division! Peter wouldn't have said what he did, if that were the case.

Interesting, only in the past two hundred years has the Bible's veracity been attacked so fervently....and mostly by people who've never read it. Yet these writings have been around for over 1500 years, and men like Isaac Newton and John Milton -- individuals who studied deeply -- found and understood the harmony within its pages, and had nothing but the utmost respect for it! What they didn't respect, was the Church! Isaac Newton even discovered how some verses in the Bible had been altered by unscrupulous scribes, promoting Church theology not taught in the Scriptures!
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Christianity was established by Paul and Simon in Antioch; the early church of James, was Ebionite, and they were against Paul.....As Yeshua said to Simon, satan has use for you. :innocent:

Have a look on Google, there are lists across the web. ;)
Yes, Peter definitely had the foremost role in admitting Gentiles into Christianity (Acts of the Apostles 10:1-35). And Paul was an Apostle sent mainly to the Gentiles (though not at first, and never entirely). But they didn't teach a 'different' Christianity. There weren't divisions at that time, at least not among the Apostles.

Converting Gentiles, beginning in 36 AD, was something Jesus even foretold : Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; etc., all foretold this expansion, even in the Hebrew Scriptures! Isaiah 2:2-4 and Zechariah 8:23 are two.

The apostatizing from pure Christianity, although occurring during the Apostles' governance (1 John 2:18), was not caused by them. But once they all were dead, it "spread like gangrene", as was prophesied.

I wanted to add, Jesus (Yeshua) said to Peter, "Satan wants to have you", not that he would.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I agree that some may think that using a Hebrew name gives them authority. No argument there. I don't think that is what we are trying to do here. The decision to use the Hebrew name, for me, is more of a rejection of the hellenized roman catholic version of Jesus.
This would only make sense, if the gospels were all written in Hebrew.

But the plain fact that none of them were originally in Hebrew; each one was written in Koine Greek.

Also, the gospel of Matthew often quote passages from OT (eg Jeremiah and Isaiah) directly from Greek sources, not directly from Hebrew sources.

So you, or wizanda, attempting to un-Hellenised Jesus' name seemed to be pointless exercise.

As to wizanda's OP, all I see is interpretations of what both Jesus and Paul might have taught, just very shallow comparisons between the two figures, no real debate points. Wizanda don't provide cite any sources, no scholarship involved, and not debate anything.

Sorry to say, these comparisons in the OP are just nothing more sophistry than anything else.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Wizanda don't provide cite any sources, no scholarship involved, and not debate anything.
I've sited scholars who agree above, there are numerous websites who have posted the scriptures, and i will debate each statement with the verses....

Yet really I'm not posting all the scriptures, as if you don't know the text well enough to see all the points I've listed, then you clearly won't understand the case against Paul. ;)
There weren't divisions at that time, at least not among the Apostles.
How do we know, all we've got is second hand accounts from Paul's own writers (Acts), and there is evidence to suggest that the early church had multiple different sects. :innocent:
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
How do we know, all we've got is second hand accounts from Paul's own writers (Acts), and there is evidence to suggest that the early church had multiple different sects. :innocent:

Well, evidence can be misleading! You and I, and everyone else, are all aware of that.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Yes willing to debate each point, else wouldn't have made a claim globally that these are contradictions....

Yet i don't make myself vulnerable tho, and am open to correction if it can be shown categorically wrong; which after 12 years of trying, I've only ever heard weak arguments to try to over turn them.

So yes by all means, this thread is for debating each point, and by all means show them wrong.

Not sure when i will get around to making a list of each chapter and verse, as they're not as simple as that, we can not debate someones whole theology, by taking one line out of a whole context.

I do, and this is a debate forum, so i think people who are interested would learn from the dialogue....

So choose one where you think you can show it to be contrary, and we can debate it. :innocent:
Yes willing to debate each point, else wouldn't have made a claim globally that these are contradictions....

Yet i don't make myself vulnerable tho, and am open to correction if it can be shown categorically wrong; which after 12 years of trying, I've only ever heard weak arguments to try to over turn them.

So yes by all means, this thread is for debating each point, and by all means show them wrong.

Not sure when i will get around to making a list of each chapter and verse, as they're not as simple as that, we can not debate someones whole theology, by taking one line out of a whole context.

I do, and this is a debate forum, so i think people who are interested would learn from the dialogue....

So choose one where you think you can show it to be contrary, and we can debate it. :innocent:
You have a great open-minded attitude, Wizanda. I didn't realize that about you, when I first began reading your posts....my bad.
And a respectful demeanor, which is rare in forums such as this. I think most here are appreciative of that, from anyone. It's something we all desire, R-E-S-P-E-C-T. (I think that's a song, LOL)
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
John is not made up and is eyewitness... but I see your perspective...

There are some senses the law continues and some other senses the law is fulfilled

 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
In some cases a writer uses an amanuensis ( a writing secretary)

John probably has the assistance of one for the gospel of John
but John probably did not for Revelation which has rough hewn greek

But church history has both John and his successor... and so ... I'm unpersuaded of the argument John didn't exist... he existed and he was an eyewitness
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Personally, I don't much question John's existence, but I don't go so far as to believe that he and/or his students were correct on all matters.
 
Top