Yeshua / Jesus Vs Saul / Paul Points

[wizanda]

You need to give book, chapter and verse and most of your comments are wrong.

Though this is a debate forum, and in a religious debate often people will site every verse...

We need to retain a lot of the scriptures to understand the whole case, giving them each reference is possible if questioned; tho each individual case is often not just one or two lines, yet Paul's Vs Yeshua's whole theological perspective is in question.

Please ask on any point and will provide the scriptures.

Basically he is saying you must exceed those who are trying by works to fulfill the law because that is what the Pharisees were doing.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Firstly Yeshua said we're judged based on our works (Greek Ergon (ἔργον) means 'actions, works or deeds')... The Torah (Law) is the start to a moral code, in the efforts to try to be righteous.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Pharisees were overly zealous in trying to perform every legislation of the Law; yet didn't apply the important aspects of righteousness.

The Law is never fulfilled, the prophets are tho; righteousness isn't a badge we get, it is an uphill struggle.

 

[omega2xx]

Though this is a debate forum, and in a religious debate often people will site every verse...

We need to retain a lot of the scriptures to understand the whole case, giving them each reference is possible if questioned; tho each individual case is often not just one or two lines, yet Paul's Vs Yeshua's whole theological perspective is in question.

Please ask on any point and will provide the scriptures.

I made my comment about someone who had listed many comments about what the Bible said and did not include one Scripture reference. I only read the first one and it was wrong, so why bother.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Not only have I not said we don' t need to do good works, I have said we do need to do them, but not for our salvation or for our relationship with God.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Of course. God gave some 1 talent, some 5 and some 10. We will be spiritually rewarded depending on how we used what He gave us.

Firstly Yeshua said we're judged based on our works (Greek Ergon (ἔργον) means 'actions, works or deeds')... The Torah (Law) is the start to a moral code, in the efforts to try to be righteous.

Chapter and verse please.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Pharisees were overly zealous in trying to perform every legislation of the Law; yet didn't apply the important aspects of righteousness.

Right, but I don't see why you are quoting that verse.

The Law is never fulfilled, the prophets are tho; righteousness isn't a badge we get, it is an uphill struggle.

Righteousness is not a badge, it is God's blessing and it is not an uphill struggle. it is imputed to us for nothing.

I Cor 1:30 - By His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to u s wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

2 Cor 5:21 - He made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

Gen 15:6- Then he believed in the Lord and He counted it to Him as righteousness

 

[wizanda]

Chapter and verse please.

They were just posted.

 

[omega2xx]

They were just posted.

If they were posted to me, I will respond, but as soon as I show 10 of them wrong, I will quit.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Muffled]

Paul never met Yeshua, claim to; yet his teachings conflict with him on well over 36 points.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. (18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. (19) Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros) were Pharisaic)

I believe Paul never met Jesus in the flesh but He did in the Spirit.

I don't believe there are any. I certainly haven't seen any.

 

[Muffled]

Well....... good luck with that.

I believe I don't depend on luck but live by faith.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe I don't depend on luck but live by faith.

And good luck with that as well.

 

[Brad Watson_Miami]

Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case.

WRONG! Before I continue, let's make one thing clear; it's not up to you to determine that "John is made up" and Peter can be dismissed. The Gospel of John is quite legitimate and could have been authored by the Apostle John. And Peter was the 1st Pope.

Y'shua is the correct spelling; it's been used by the Messianic Jews since the '60s.

5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it

Y'shua bar Yosef did NOT die the Cross; God-incarnate had a near-death experience.

8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.

Bravo! Jesus taught reincarnation in Matthew 11:14-15, John 8:58, etc.

9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.

Don't confuse GOD and God-incarnate.

10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.

We are all sons and daughters of GOD. Y'shua was God-incarnate.

11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.

Follow GOD & God-incarnate.

15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.

GOD is masculine and feminine; Father and Mother.

16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don't work we don't eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.

We have to work. Choose GOD or GOLD.

17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.

Heaven is an ideal frame-of-mind to be experienced here and now.

18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.

Now that the Christ has returned, "Everyone is judged according to their actions".

Every thought is a prayer.

 

[wizanda]

to determine that "John is made up"

Here, and more here is the evidence to start establishing the case; there are loads more points as well.

Peter can be dismissed.

Yeshua called Simon the stone (peter) as he would mislead everyone.

Y'shua is the correct spelling

As within Zechariah 3, his full name is Yehoshua; Yeshua is an Aramaic, and shortened Hebrew version of the full name.

Don't confuse GOD and God-incarnate.

Thanks can't confuse them; in my understanding El Elyon is the God Most High who is formless, and is like the CPU manifesting reality...

Elohim are made manifest within this reality, and therefore are not the Most High.

We are all sons and daughters of GOD.

We are all Elohim, tho many of us have forgotten.

Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods (Elohim), all of you are children of the Most High (Elyon).

Every thought is a prayer.

Agreed!

 

[Grandliseur]

Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case.

This article is old, so admittingly there are lots of things that could be improved on, and overall far more points than this; so feel free to add any you know of.

1. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.

2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.

3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.

4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.

5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it, as in the parable of the vine dresser; Paul said that we have an inheritance because of Christ's death.

6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.

7. Christ said that God is the lord of the living; Paul said that we should remain with Christ in death.

8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.

9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.

10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.

11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.

12. Christ said to be one in God, Paul said to be one body in Christ.

13. Christ said that faith in God is powerful; Paul said that faith is "the faith' and so turning its meaning in to church attendance.

14. Christ showed and said to have faith in God; Paul said have faith in Christ.

15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.

16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don't work we don't eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.

17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.

18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.

19. Christ said we are justified by our words, Paul said we are justified by Christ.

20. Christ said God would show mercy to the merciful, Paul said we have mercy in Christ.

21. Christ said to be like children to enter heaven; Paul said not to be like children.

22. Christ said to be the light of the world and to show the bad through love how to be good, Paul said to have nothing to do with bad people and push them out.

23. Christ and the Bible said wisdom will make you shine in heaven, and he said that we should increase the talents we are born with; Paul said to be simple in Christ.

24. Christ said, if you help collect in the harvest (works) you will receive your reward, Paul said it is not by works but by faith in Christ alone.

25. Christ said don't make vain repetition in prayers; Paul established it as a way to pray, through the wording he used and the Pharisee ways he showed.

26. Christ said hate self and love through God's love, then this is unconditional, Paul said who doesn't love them self's.

27. Christ said women can be sisters (equal), Paul said they should remain lower.

28. Christ said we should remember him through the sharing of bread (start of acts, only bread); Paul said to remember him through wine.

29. Christ said that his disciples should only drink water; Paul made the drinking of wine (communion) a religious Ritual.

30. Christ clearly showed and said do not worry about being accepted by man, Paul said to be accepted by many.

31. Christ said take up your cross and follow me, as the cross was a symbol in many cultures for God. Paul turned the cross into only a symbol of Christ's death, and caused it to become idolatry.

32. Christ said he came to bring division, meaning that we all follow God; Paul said Christ came to bring peace.

33. Christ said God is the teacher, Paul said him self is a teacher.

34. Christ warned of those who say the time is near, Paul preached the time is near.

35. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.

36. Christ says salvation comes from repentance, Paul said Salvation comes from the death of Christ.

First I must thank you for showing me the way so nicely to your points.

Now, I can see you have made your mind up; but, so have I. Therefore there is no reason for me to get involved in this very long list of claims.
As to your claims, let me borrow one. Picking one at random:

6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.

Do you point by scripture to where Jesus said so, Paul said so? No, to simply accept at face value what you claim is impossible. Sorry. This is another reason I have for not getting involved.

But, thank you for showing this to me.

 

[wizanda]

Do you point by scripture to where Jesus said so, Paul said so?

You already tried to answer your question with no, which means you missed all the hints by Yeshua...

Yeshua challenged the Sanhedrin for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13, and the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

He then made the statement to the Sanhedrin twice (Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:7, Hosea 6:6), that if they understood the prophets, they would not murder the innocent.

You have to take into account Judah was cut off, and divorced for murdering prophets, as Matthew 23 relates...

Thus people thinking they get something from the death of Yeshua, instead of the life, and the message of Yeshua, are heading the wrong way.

I can see you have made your mind up

I'm always willing to reassess things, and double check if shown a different method that i had not noticed.

Proverbs 18:17 He who pleads his cause first seems right; until another comes and questions him.

In my opinion.

 

[Fool]

Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case.

This article is old, so admittingly there are lots of things that could be improved on, and overall far more points than this; so feel free to add any you know of.

1. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.

fulfilling the law is the end of subjection under the Law. Self is able to judge as the law is not a respecter of a person.

2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.

again you are either within the law or subject under the law. The Law of ONE, or Love does not harm; so all commandments are covered.

Those under the law, or divided against God, Love are judged. Those within the Law are able to judge.

luke 12:56 is a judgment against the pharisees. in fact, he calls them hypocrites quite a few times in the synoptic gospels.

3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.

most folks commit wrongs out of misunderstanding. jesus corrected his disciples when they were wrong lovingly. if a person wrongs someone we cannot be indifferent, we must judge to be hot or cold. we must take action. Lovingly or hatefully but indifferently is not acceptable.

4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.

Love is able to judge, yes. Love does not harm, nor does it allow it either. this is why jesus told peter to put away his sword.

 

[Muffled]

Though this is a debate forum, and in a religious debate often people will site every verse...

We need to retain a lot of the scriptures to understand the whole case, giving them each reference is possible if questioned; tho each individual case is often not just one or two lines, yet Paul's Vs Yeshua's whole theological perspective is in question.

Please ask on any point and will provide the scriptures.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Firstly Yeshua said we're judged based on our works (Greek Ergon (ἔργον) means 'actions, works or deeds')... The Torah (Law) is the start to a moral code, in the efforts to try to be righteous.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Pharisees were overly zealous in trying to perform every legislation of the Law; yet didn't apply the important aspects of righteousness.

The Law is never fulfilled, the prophets are tho; righteousness isn't a badge we get, it is an uphill struggle.

I believe I didn't find a Biblical passage that says that.

I believe this says that Jesus does. Mt 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil

I believe this says otherwise:
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

 

[Muffled]

And good luck with that as well.

Again I believe I don't need luck because it works.

 

[wizanda]

Love

To be polite, going to reply; yet i can not debate a single point, as you're adding your own theological ideas, and not dealing with the specific ideologies of Paul and Yeshua.

I believe this says that Jesus does. Mt 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil

You're sticking with a Pauline appraisal of what Yeshua said...

Yeshua fulfilling the prophets is to Divorce Judah/Israel, to cut off the people because of their Leaders murdering prophets as atoning sacrifices, and you're still trying to justify it like John, Paul and Simon have done, that this is all acceptable.

In the Law in Deuteronomy 28, and Leviticus 26, our people are cast out among the nations, for turning against their Lord, which was Yeshua...

So Paul's whole ideology that we've murdered the Lord, so we're not bound by the Law anymore, simply does not work.

In my opinion.

 

[Fool]

To be polite, going to reply; yet i can not debate a single point, as you're adding your own theological ideas, and not dealing with the specific ideologies of Paul and Yeshua.

You're sticking with a Pauline appraisal of what Yeshua said...

Yeshua fulfilling the prophets is to Divorce Judah/Israel, to cut off the people because of their Leaders murdering prophets as atoning sacrifices, and you're still trying to justify it like John, Paul and Simon have done, that this is all acceptable.

In the Law in Deuteronomy 28, and Leviticus 26, our people are cast out among the nations, for turning against their Lord, which was Yeshua...

So Paul's whole ideology that we've murdered the Lord, so we're not bound by the Law anymore, simply does not work.

In my opinion.

i didn't agree that murdering jesus was acceptable.

again i stated the law of love does no harm. the law of love does allow defense. jesus was defensive at time. the Law of Love covers all of the Law, all sins.

i addressed the first three of the list. i didn't wish to go any further.

i didn't state that paul and jesus were in full agreement on everything.

paul misses the mark by promoting idolatry, or a cult of personality.

the law of love is not a respecter of persons. jesus said that others could accomplish everything he was doing by believing, not by idolatry.

 

[Grandliseur]

You already tried to answer your question with no, which means you missed all the hints by Yeshua...

Yeshua challenged the Sanhedrin for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13, and the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

He then made the statement to the Sanhedrin twice (Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:7, Hosea 6:6), that if they understood the prophets, they would not murder the innocent.

You have to take into account Judah was cut off, and divorced for murdering prophets, as Matthew 23 relates...

Thus people thinking they get something from the death of Yeshua, instead of the life, and the message of Yeshua, are heading the wrong way.

I'm always willing to reassess things, and double check if shown a different method that i had not noticed.

Proverbs 18:17 He who pleads his cause first seems right; until another comes and questions him.

In my opinion.

I don't mind addressing one or two points when people have questions in their minds how things work. However, you don't have any problem with how things work, you have your own set ideas for this, and that is fine with me. But, I have my own set ideas of how things work, and they are not up for debate, though it has happened that I changed my mind on a few things from what others said.

I accept as inspired the OT and the entire NT as we have it. Here I use many translations and go at times to the Hebrew, Greek online translations to see exactly what the point it.

If then people, in this case you, have one or two gripes with what is taught in scripture, I may, not assured though, look at the scriptures such as you provide this time. But, now that I know that our accepted dogma is very different, I don't really think I am interested in pursuing this.

I do respect your right to your beliefs, but hold these rights to apply to me also. What you said here about the prophets is true. What you say about Jesus' death I disagree with. Refer to Isaiah 53. But, that chapter is not an invitation to a debate. But, please be zealous as the spirit moves you.

 

[wizanda]

you don't have any problem with how things work, you have your own set ideas for this

Personally can wipe the canvas clean, start again, and always check if to do so to be logically consistent...

It is due to what the text stated, that has vastly changed my direction from what i originally thought or what we are told to believe it meant.

Refer to Isaiah 53

So Isaiah 53:1 has 'who would have believed the rumor' (H8052); thus we look up additional context, as it is so far fetched according to the Law how could anyone believe it; not just accept it, as we're told it is fine, when morally it doesn't add up.

Paul, John, and Simon were not smart enough to see that the rumor then is also listed in the snare of Isaiah 28:9-19, creating a bed of adultery specified in Isaiah 28:20-21, with the chief corner stone in the middle of it (Isaiah 28:16).

In my opinion.

 

[74x12]

Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case.

This article is old, so admittingly there are lots of things that could be improved on, and overall far more points than this; so feel free to add any you know of.

1. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.

2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.

3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.

4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.

5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it, as in the parable of the vine dresser; Paul said that we have an inheritance because of Christ's death.

6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.

7. Christ said that God is the lord of the living; Paul said that we should remain with Christ in death.

8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.

9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.

10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.

11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.

12. Christ said to be one in God, Paul said to be one body in Christ.

13. Christ said that faith in God is powerful; Paul said that faith is "the faith' and so turning its meaning in to church attendance.

14. Christ showed and said to have faith in God; Paul said have faith in Christ.

15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.

16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don't work we don't eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.

17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.

18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.

19. Christ said we are justified by our words, Paul said we are justified by Christ.

20. Christ said God would show mercy to the merciful, Paul said we have mercy in Christ.

21. Christ said to be like children to enter heaven; Paul said not to be like children.

22. Christ said to be the light of the world and to show the bad through love how to be good, Paul said to have nothing to do with bad people and push them out.

23. Christ and the Bible said wisdom will make you shine in heaven, and he said that we should increase the talents we are born with; Paul said to be simple in Christ.

24. Christ said, if you help collect in the harvest (works) you will receive your reward, Paul said it is not by works but by faith in Christ alone.

25. Christ said don't make vain repetition in prayers; Paul established it as a way to pray, through the wording he used and the Pharisee ways he showed.

26. Christ said hate self and love through God's love, then this is unconditional, Paul said who doesn't love them self's.

27. Christ said women can be sisters (equal), Paul said they should remain lower.

28. Christ said we should remember him through the sharing of bread (start of acts, only bread); Paul said to remember him through wine.

29. Christ said that his disciples should only drink water; Paul made the drinking of wine (communion) a religious Ritual.

30. Christ clearly showed and said do not worry about being accepted by man, Paul said to be accepted by many.

31. Christ said take up your cross and follow me, as the cross was a symbol in many cultures for God. Paul turned the cross into only a symbol of Christ's death, and caused it to become idolatry.

32. Christ said he came to bring division, meaning that we all follow God; Paul said Christ came to bring peace.

33. Christ said God is the teacher, Paul said him self is a teacher.

34. Christ warned of those who say the time is near, Paul preached the time is near.

35. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.

36. Christ says salvation comes from repentance, Paul said Salvation comes from the death of Christ.

Where did you get this list? It's basically all incorrect. No offense.

John is not made up and Jesus was also called a stone. As it says He is the chief Corner Stone. So it's not a negative to be called a stone.

 

[wizanda]

Where did you get this list?

The list is by me, and thus can substantiate every point with scripture.

John is not made up

Is another topic, which by all means we can debate with scriptures here in the thread on the Gospel of John being fake.

Jesus was also called a stone. As it says He is the chief Corner Stone. So it's not a negative to be called a stone.

This we should debate in this topic on Simon the Stone... As it is a specific reference prophesied in Zechariah 3:9.

As is the Chief Corner Stone, which can also explain in details not understood by the world.

In my opinion.