oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Forgive me, that I cannot understand your first para, that you are Jesus, and recognise yourself in Paul and John.
Now, you believe that Zebedee's son wrote G-John. No. Not possible.
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Yeshua / Jesus Vs Saul / Paul Points
- Thread starter wizanda
- Start date
Now, you believe that Zebedee's son wrote G-John. No. Not possible.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe all things are possible with God. I believe if you are arguing the null hypothesis you have to show good reason why it must be so.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Muffled, this looks as if you can make any claim that you like with no provenance, but that any who challenge must show provenance. Is this true?
Many people might want proof that you are Jesus, for instance.
Many people, if shown that G-John was wreitten circa 110-120CE would not believe that John BarZebedee could lived so long to write it, and hre certainly did not see many of the claims made with G-John.
I don't know what else to say.......................
Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case.
This article is old, so admittingly there are lots of things that could be improved on, and overall far more points than this; so feel free to add any you know of.
1. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.
2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.
3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.
4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.
5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it, as in the parable of the vine dresser; Paul said that we have an inheritance because of Christ's death.
6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.
7. Christ said that God is the lord of the living; Paul said that we should remain with Christ in death.
8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.
9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.
10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.
11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.
12. Christ said to be one in God, Paul said to be one body in Christ.
13. Christ said that faith in God is powerful; Paul said that faith is "the faith' and so turning its meaning in to church attendance.
14. Christ showed and said to have faith in God; Paul said have faith in Christ.
15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.
16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don't work we don't eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.
17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.
18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.
19. Christ said we are justified by our words, Paul said we are justified by Christ.
20. Christ said God would show mercy to the merciful, Paul said we have mercy in Christ.
21. Christ said to be like children to enter heaven; Paul said not to be like children.
22. Christ said to be the light of the world and to show the bad through love how to be good, Paul said to have nothing to do with bad people and push them out.
23. Christ and the Bible said wisdom will make you shine in heaven, and he said that we should increase the talents we are born with; Paul said to be simple in Christ.
24. Christ said, if you help collect in the harvest (works) you will receive your reward, Paul said it is not by works but by faith in Christ alone.
25. Christ said don't make vain repetition in prayers; Paul established it as a way to pray, through the wording he used and the Pharisee ways he showed.
26. Christ said hate self and love through God's love, then this is unconditional, Paul said who doesn't love them self's.
27. Christ said women can be sisters (equal), Paul said they should remain lower.
28. Christ said we should remember him through the sharing of bread (start of acts, only bread); Paul said to remember him through wine.
29. Christ said that his disciples should only drink water; Paul made the drinking of wine (communion) a religious Ritual.
30. Christ clearly showed and said do not worry about being accepted by man, Paul said to be accepted by many.
31. Christ said take up your cross and follow me, as the cross was a symbol in many cultures for God. Paul turned the cross into only a symbol of Christ's death, and caused it to become idolatry.
32. Christ said he came to bring division, meaning that we all follow God; Paul said Christ came to bring peace.
33. Christ said God is the teacher, Paul said him self is a teacher.
34. Christ warned of those who say the time is near, Paul preached the time is near.
35. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.
36. Christ says salvation comes from repentance, Paul said Salvation comes from the death of Christ.
Let/s get something else clear. You have no evidence John was made up. Peter was not called a stone, if anything he was called a rock and Jesus, not Peter was the stumbling stone.
I read through the fiiits 10 on your list and not one of them was accurate. A couple of them made statements but did not back up what they said with Scripture, Than makes them invalid.
It is amusing that skeptics like to post comments from atheist web sites and atheist cannot understand the Bible(I Cor 2:14). Because of the prejudice they are willing to believe the spiritually ignorant instead of what God says , most of the time in very simple words
I will comment on the first one, which is half right. Jesus did not come to abolish the law. Paul never said He came to end it. He said Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes. IOW we can't be made righteous by keeping the law.. He also dId not say if we are in Christ, we are free from the law. Whoever wrote that comment did not finish the verse----"Free from the law of SIN AND DEATH."
To make my point Paul also said "What shall we say then," are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? MAY IT NEVER Be!..(Rom 6:1-2).
He also said, "What them? Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? May it never be.
You can't learn the truth from the spiritually ignorant and literally biased.
Not providing a ream of scripture doesn't invalidate the statements; it is because anyone who wants to understand the case being presented, needs to know the Biblical text.
Ask on any point, and can provide arguments...
It is amusing to assume someone who has had a NDE, and first hand knowledge of God all my life, fits in with being an Atheist...
I'm just willing to question the case, as i care about what Yeshua stated.
Half right, the word 'end' there, is better translated as a fulfillment of the Law...
Though overall Paul has made it Christians do not follow the Law, so you can't then say, "yes we follow it".
The comments were far to vague. Since they got other things wrong, why should anyone accept what they say?
The exact verse needs to be referenced because most of the time, the context needs to be considered.
It is not amusing to me, to me it is sad and IMO, you do not have first hand knowledge of God. If you did, you would understand that those thinsg you posted are not Biblical.
I'm just willing to question the case, as i care about what Yeshua stated.
Did He say everything attributed to Him in the NT?
Though overall Paul has made it Christians do not follow the Law, so you can't then say, "yes we follow it".
That simply is not true. Paul NEVER said we should not follow the law. He says at least twice we should not sin because of grace of because we are not under the law.
We are under the moral law but not for salvation---By the works of the law shall no flesh will be justified--Gal 2:16c
Because odd things we think are wrong, shouldn't stop us examining something.
If the outcome of a text is a certain ideology; examining the context to justify someone didn't mean it that way, doesn't change the facts on what most people are following.
There are many understandings of the Biblical text, yet there is a specific way it adds up properly... Which is where we can challenge Paul against the rest of the Law, and the prophets.
Some of the texts ascribed to him, are said to not be by Paul... Yet even if we take what is his, it is still enough to build a case against his logic vs Yeshua's.
So lets start with a basic premise, if we don't get anything from the death of Yeshua according to the Parable of the Wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), and instead shall be condemned by God for believing we get anything from the death of his son....Therefore Paul's ideas of Grace, are fantasy.
If we're not following Yeshua's teachings, we're not getting anything either (Matthew 7:24-27), and since Yeshua condemned the Pharisees for murdering the prophets (Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13), then clearly some Pharisaic religion that came about after his murder isn't a good thing.
Yeshua was teaching not to expect Grace (Luke 17:9-10); Paul tells us we're in a race for Grace (1 Corinthians 9:23-25).
Getting 10 our 9f 10 wrong indicates the person does not know what he is talking about. Reading any ore would be a wste of time.
You have it backwards. You need the context to make sure your understanding is right, not to justify what someone might mean. Without the context, your interpretation might be wrong.
You can challenge him all you want to but if you don't understand the text, you will look foolish, like the person who wrote those 39 comments.
Then do it.
That parable has nothing to do with Paul ideas of grace, and God does not condemn anyone for believing we get anything from the death of His Son.
What makes you think we are not following the teachins of Jesus?
Those verses are teaching us not to expect a reward for doing our duty..
Paul tells us we're in a race for Grace (1 Corinthians 9:23-25).
Those verses are not about grace. They are teaching us to win, we must do our best.
The list is mine, from 13 years ago.... Not much has changed, and you can see people capable to debate the points, as they know the scriptures.
The context in each point are specific keywords, like Law, Grace, Inheritance, Works, Salvation, etc, as each point Paul conflicts with Yeshua on in someway.
Matthew 21:38-41 But the farmers, when they saw the son, said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and seize his inheritance.’ (39) So they took him, and threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. (40) When therefore the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?” (41) They told him, “He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will lease out the vineyard to other farmers, who will give him the fruit in its season.”
Depends which texts someone accepts more out of the Synoptic Gospels Vs John's and Paul's writings, then can show systematically where there are contradictions in theology.
Luke 17:9 Does he (give grace)
Yeshua says not to expect grace for doing what has been commanded.
Paul is saying to expect not only grace, yet to receive a crown, to sit and judge angels.
If the list is yours, then you don't understand the Scrditres.
Further evidence you don't understand the Sriptures.
Then point to the specific verse that contradict the passage you just posted.
Luke 17:9 Does he (give grace)thankthat servant because he did the things that were commanded? I think not.
Yeshua says not to expect grace for doing what has been commanded.
Paul is saying to expect not only grace, yet to receive a crown, to sit and judge angels.
"Thanks" and "grace" are not the same thing. At least you are trying to analyze the Scriptures to get an accurate interpretation, instead of just reading them.
Really don't need to post just one verse; the whole context of Paul's ministry is that we get inheritance due to the death of Christ.
It is the same word in Greek:
I've spent over 13 years analyzing and discussing these things, plus most of my life studying theology.
Not quite. Paul taught that Christ's death made the inheritance possible, but it is necessary to accept Jesus as Savior to get the inheritance.
You are right there and thanks for bringing that to my attention. However since all of the good Bible translations have "thank" and not "grace" there must be a nuance in the word that the context requires "thank" instead of "grace."
Grace is extended for not doing anything. It is a gift of God(Eph 2:8). Once we have God's grace, we don't need more of it. WE also become God's servants and as such we don't need to be thanked for doing what is expected of us for having been granted God's grace.
I've spent over 13 years analyzing and discussing these things, plus most of my life studying theology.
Yes, I acknowledged that you are more than a reader of God's word, You actually study it.
I have spent over 40 years of my life analyzing and discussing the Bible, which is almost half of my life. Does that make me an expert? I am not even close to being one.
Although we disagree here, I am sure we have far more areas where we agree than where we don't.
Grace and peace to you. Keep your nose in God's word which I am sure you will do.
Greek Concordance: χάριν (charin) -- 42 Occurrences
It is the same word, the reason they translated it differently is to cover up that Yeshua spoke of grace in two places (Luke 6:32-35, Luke 17:9-10), where in each Yeshua is saying not to expect grace.
This goes directly contrary to the Pauline church Christianity is built upon, thus they cover it up....
Take into account the Mother of All Harlots canonized the milk she has fed us, and Revelation points to the church its self as being where the corruption exists.
Again the Pauline, Johnnie theology shines through; we don't have free grace anymore, it was removed by Yeshua's murder, not given (Zechariah 11:10).
Instead Yeshua's teachings are that God is gracious to those who are gracious, merciful to those who are merciful; with what measure we judge, we shall be judged by.
The more we go over this, the more it can be shown that Paul puts ownership onto Christ's righteousness; whereas Christ put all ownership onto us individually (Ezekiel 33:12).
Which isn't true, Yeshua said about people knowing and following him whilst he was alive, and that being sufficient to receive inheritance (Matthew 19:28-30); those thinking they get free inheritance by believing in his name have been deceived (Matthew 7:21-23).
Unfortunately this is where Simon was a stone (petros), he still didn't get it right, even after Yeshua repeatedly tried to correct him... Simon had faith in man, and not God.
Doing Yeshua's teachings is all that is needed, and then accepting his fulfillment of prophecy is a requirement if we're following the Biblical text.
Peace B with U 2
If only 1 translation used thanks, I might agree with you, but all the best translations, which are done by experts in Greek, use "thank." Also translators do not mis-translate words to cover up anything. There is no sin so great we can't expect God to extend His grace to us---where sin did abordn, grace did much more abound.
Ther is no such thing as "Pauline church Christianity." Everything Paul wrote was inspired by God.
I need the chapter and verse to consider that as the truth.
What man does, does not eliminate God's grace. Eph 2d:8 was written after Zech. Iws saved by the grace of God, so it is stgill available.
WE only become gracious after we are saved and being gracious is not a requirement for being saved,d Many nonChristians are gracious.
Paul teaches that when we are saved we receive Christ's righteousness.(I Cor 1:30). Man can' make himself righteous. When we are saved, Christ; righteousness is imputed to us.
Eternal life is a free gift(Rom 6:23). Grace and faith are a free gift of "God(Eph2:8). God does not treat us any different than others. Since man can't save himself, God must do it.
It is more likely Peter had faith in Peter, but when his faith failed, Jesus restored him---that is an example of God's grace.
Doing Yeshua's teachings is all that is needed, and then accepting his fulfillment of prophecy is a requirement if we're following the Biblical text.
Peace B with U 2
Agreed.
We can't translate the verb 'graced' the same in English, if we say "he graced the person" it doesn't make the same contextual sense, so they put the word 'thank', though the meaning Yeshua used is 'grace'.
Translators will put what they're aware of within their theological understanding, and since the church is upside down, they're often fitting the language with an upside down interpretation, thus unintentionally hiding the real meaning.
The term 'Christian' was first applied in Antioch to Paul and Simon the stone's ministry (Acts 11:26); followers of Yeshua were called 'followers of the way' or Ebionites.
Revelation explains the Mother of all Harlots, there are too many verses to post, she wears purple and scarlet (Rome) (Revelation 17:4), she is on 7 hills (Rome) (Revelation 17:9), she teaches to drink the blood of the saints (Revelation 17:6).
This is a prophetic book, what is written after doesn't supersede, instead it clarifies... Paul doesn't fit with the prophets, as he says the opposite to what is meant to happen.
So whereas Zechariah 11 is prophetic of the 2nd temple destruction, written 500 years before it happened; Paul then writes before the 2nd temple destruction, completely misconstruing what the Tanakh is saying that Jews have been cut off, and instead goes saying they all have grace before their destruction.
Gracious means to be well mannered, courteous, and showing an elegance.... God can be gracious to us; yet we don't have graciousness, unless we are acting that way.
What Paul teaches is anti-Christ, we can't steal another man's righteousness, and claim it as our own, which is why posted Ezekiel 33:12 saying that.
Ezekiel 14:14 though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only their own souls by their righteousness,” says the Lord Yahweh.
Yeshua said we could, "let your light glorify God"(Matthew 5:16), "aim to be perfect as your father in Heaven"(Matthew 5:48), "come not to call the righteous, yet sinners to repentance"(Matthew 9:13).
Paul has no authority, and thus his words don't hold weight....
According to Yeshua we gain eternal life by following the commandments, giving up wealth, and following him doing the work of God, it is earned(Matthew 19:16-30).
Again this is just dumb on Paul's part... Faith means to trust, Paul gives people a religious belief, and says trust this without much evidence.
Free grace from God was removed, and is instead earned by being a gracious person.... Faith is practiced, the more we learn to trust, the more faith we have in something.
Again this sounds like a Pharisee; as Yeshua points out in Matthew 23:25-26, it is about cleaning the inside of the cup, that makes us acceptable for Heaven, being full of dead men's bones makes them worthy for Hell.
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Many Greek and Hebrew words have more than one meaning and can have a nuance outside of the main meaning.
Good translators will not consider their theological understanding of a word when defining it. What makes you think the church is upside down?
Later they were called Christians.
Harlotry symbolizes accepting and worshiping false gods. Babylon was the beginning of all false religions . Its first god was Nimrod, a hunter of people.
Where?
So whereas Zechariah 11 is prophetic of the 2nd temple destruction, written 500 years before it happened; Paul then writes before the 2nd temple destruction, completely misconstruing what the Tanakh is saying that Jews have been cut off, and instead goes saying they all have grace before their destruction.
When you make a dogmatic statement, you need to provide chapter and verse.
Gracious means to be well mannered, courteous, and showing an elegance.... God can be gracious to us; yet we don't have graciousness, unless we are acting that way.
What Paul teaches is anti-Christ, we can't steal another man's righteousness, and claim it as our own, which is why posted Ezekiel 33:12 saying that.
Ezekiel 14:14 though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only their own souls by their righteousness,” says the Lord Yahweh.
Yeshua said we could, "let your light glorify God"(Matthew 5:16), "aim to be perfect as your father in Heaven"(Matthew 5:48), "come not to call the righteous, yet sinners to repentance"(Matthew 9:13).
Paul has no authority, and thus his words don't hold weight....
Righteousness is not earned by good works, it is imputed to us when we accept Jesus as our Savior. Since ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and what Paul wrote is Scripture, he is not the author of what he wrote, God is.
Not true. Jesus said we have eternal life by believing in Him---Jn 3:16---Jn 6:40.
There is no evidence for spiritual truths, That is why faith is necessary.
Free grace was never removed,. If it was, no one could be saved. Salvatin can' be earned. Abram BELIEVED God and that made him righteous.
Again this sounds like a Pharisee; as Yeshua points out in Matthew 23:25-26, it is about cleaning the inside of the cup, that makes us acceptable for Heaven, being full of dead men's bones makes them worthy for Hell.
That is basically saying the God looks on the inside, not on the outside of us for compliance with the law.
The evidence of what they follow, and then prophetically, that is what is meant to happen(Isaiah 5:20, Isaiah 29:10, Isaiah 29:1, etc).
Exactly, where the Roman empire has made most of Christianity follow Pagan customs, and the Biblical theology causing idolatry, with people not understanding the hierarchy in Heaven due to the Pharisaic Jews no longer knowing who God is.
Where does Paul contradict the prophets?
- Isaiah 8, he speaks to the dead on behalf of the living.
- Isaiah 28, he makes a covenant with death.
- Zechariah 5, he tells people to steal from Christ, and to swear falsely.
- Habakkuk 2, he tells people to put their faith in man, rather than God.
Dogmatic means to do something repetitively, not to simply make a religious statement.... Also most of the time provide whole chapters in context, don't do odd lines of texts taken out of contexts.
See this isn't a debate, you're just quoting the same rubbish Paul made up....
Which makes no logical sense, if you do good works according to Christ, and the rest of the Bible, we earn righteousness.
Coveting someone's righteousness as your own, is a sin.
It isn't all inspired by God tho; there are tons of evil things in the Bible, and anyone who perceives it is all Godly, says more about their level of morality.
John is made up by the Sanhedrin.
Rubbish, God gives signs, and miracles to everyone who asks.
See Yeshua said there were righteous people without the need of him... The idea you think God hasn't got the power to save is shocking.
Your brush is way to wide. You can't paint conservative Christianity with that brush.
The Roman empire has nothing to do with influencing conservative Christianity.
Unless you post the verses that Paul does what you accuse him of, your words are meaningless. IMO, you don't understand what Paul is saying.
You speak in generalities, be specific
Be specific or there is no point in continuing this discussion. From what you have posted so far,it is clear you don't understand much of the Bible or what Paul is saying.
Post the verses where Christ said that.
Who talks about coveting someone righteousness? When a person become a Christian, Christ' righteousness is imputed to them(ICor 1:30).
Of of course you are omniscient and have perfect knowledge of what verses are inspired by God. There is no need to discuss the Bible, with know-it alls like you.
That link doesn't understand the Bible any better than you do.
Rubbish, God gives signs, and miracles to everyone who asks.
See Yeshua said there were righteous people without the need of him... The idea you think God hasn't got the power to save is shocking.
I'm not the one painting, the prophets lay the canvas, God did the brush strokes, and Yeshua's murder is the unkosher scene.
Roman Catholic Christianity is the Mother of All Christianity.... With Pharisaic Judaism being its father.
This is ridiculous if you need me to tell you where Paul says certain things each time, the quotes were against the whole of Paul's theology, not one individual line.
Quote chapters as their all contextual. Pharisees strain at one verse at a time, as they seem to have a hard time dealing with masses of information at the same time.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-46 is this same final Judgement, and everyone is judged according to their works.
Paul does, in telling us we have the mind of Christ (1Corinthians 2:16), that Christ righteousness is imputed to us (1Corinthians 1:30; each person's mind, and righteousness is only their own, it is insane to think otherwise.
Silly statement; that is like saying if an Arch Angel came knowing the Biblical text, we'd not speak with them, as they're aware of more than us.
All of these threads are mine, spent my whole life investigating this information to help the world before the Tribulation.